Technique vs Musicality/Sabor

[DJ Ara]

Sad to say, altho its a double edged sword, the BR world had 2 diametrically opposed effects. On the one hand, it brought the mambo to the general public awareness ,thru the medium of TV; the other side of that coin, as many have said, they somewhat "polluted " the genre with an influx of ballroom variations .

Its not so much the variety, I believe, is HOW it was defined . It also,( like most new to market products ) was packaged and sold ,to be the authentic representation of the Cuban original .

And to be clear, from a pragmatic position, it probably would not have been as successful, if it was taught, danced, and "sold" in its then ,indigenous form.

ALL dance evolves, I think we all agree on that. Its the direction that many have questioned. We will never totally agree on content, and thats true in many other dance forms.

The Euopean influences , are pretty much all those that were utilised from the American dances .

The english really dont have one single dance ( Q/step is as close as one can get ) that has not been re vamped ,to suit/fit, the european mind set, from a decorum perspective .

I believe the real change in approach to dance, was the introduction to the UK, of what we now call Jive .Add to this, the advent of additions to the existing forms of dance ( Rumba, was as close to Danzon as one can get, and yet, was abandoned for a newer format.. Bolero style on "2" ). The englsih really showed their colors ,when they named it " English Rumba " !! .

Again, the NYC Palladium ( there were others ) is always used as a yardstick for everything that Mambo was all about . Its actually quite dis respectful to all the dancers on the Left coast, who were as innovative as any .They just didnt get the TV/ press coverage ,unless it was some movie type seen dancing .( we did get some famous names come in for lessons.. heaven knows why,I never saw them in ANY clubs !!.. did see others out and about ) .

AS to contributions from any indigenous dancers, PRs and or Cubanos,Absolutely ! . ANYONE that denies the influences, on HOW we all wanted to dance and emulate is delusional .

Finally , I think that both ends of the dance spectrum.. B.R and Indigenous, have drawn from each other, and the "line " has become somewhat blurred.

Thanks as always for the informative post.

I believe that ballroom is an artform in itself and the good thing is that if someone says this is ballroom samba or mambo, then you know what to expect and enjoy it as it is.

The problem with a lot of salsa danced nowadays is that it is nor one, or the other, while still maintaing its title of 'salsa', and of course this phenomenon creates a lot of the friction and misunderstanding as demonstrated in this very thread.

The only point, which I should have asked more clearly before is wether the indigenious, that is the tribes that lived on the islands of Cuba and Puerto Rico influenced any of the dancing methodologies developed by the African and European fusions, as they did on the musical side with the minor percussion additions of say the maracas?

I am not even sure if there is any clear info on this historically speaking, but I thought I would ask for at least perhaps a hypothesis.

 

[vit]

The only point, which I should have asked more clearly before is wether the indigenious, that is the tribes that lived on the islands of Cuba and Puerto Rico influenced any of the dancing methodologies developed by the African and European fusions, as they did on the musical side with the minor percussion additions of say the maracas?

HUH ... Am I undersdtanding correctly that you wanted to say that original music from Africa was only sligtly changed in Cuba with some minor percussive additions ?

 

[DJ Ara]

HUH ... Am I undersdtanding correctly that you wanted to say that original music from Africa was only sligtly changed in Cuba with some minor percussive additions ?

Where did I say that?

I just wanted to know of any indigenous read, local tribes living on say Cuba and their influence if any the dancing that developed.

I asked that while refferring to the indigenous percussion elements that were adopted by the music itself.

 

[vit]

Ok, I misunderstood. That's why I asked ...

 

[DJ Ara]

Ok, I misunderstood. That's why I asked ...

No problem.

 

[DJ Ara]

Now you wrote similar like me, just that you named some dances during timeline, and ommited some dances (original African and dances in States for instance) that also played great role

I don't think that original African dances in the States played a part in the development of the Son dance at its core. They probably had influence when so was already developed and mixed with North American dancing that was brought to the island by US tourists and in the US through cultural fusion, which influenced the ultimate development of salsa.

Or is that what you meant originally?

 

[vit]

I mean original African dances influenced Son, and dances in the States (swing etc) influenced mambo further. Result is salsa as danced today in the States or worldwide

Actually, I agree with you that Son should be considered as a kind of core of salsa, it's actually nothing new, just it's a bit problematic to take one relatively narrow time interval and say - this is a core of something, because there is continuos development of these dances and mixing among them. Son developped from something, and other dances (like mambo, salsa and even ballroom rumba) developped further from son

I also agree with you that there is probably too much spinning in international salsa. And I also think that there is probably too much stepping in cali style ... for my taste ...

 

[wildbill20056]

This statement is only partially true, but I'll get to that in a few lines.
Let's assume that statement is 100% true, for the sake of the argument.
Why is that "wrong"? why is it so "bad" that salsa had no slot at Cuba or PR?
If this is so, then it is reasonable to assume that the slot came from some non Latin dance form, with swing being a main competitor.
That would only mean that the slot concept is foreign to salsa, and is not a part of the authentic core...

It would mean you, given your enshrinement of all things latino, would have to declare all linear styles 'less authentic' than more circular styles.

Now, why is this statement only partially true, if at all.
It strongly depends upon the time frame you are looking at.
Is your time frame the late 30's and early 40's, or late 60's and early 70's?
Salsera_Alemana mentioned on several occasions before that her PR husband, who has been dancing in PR for his whole life (=since the 60's?), has some sort of a flexible slot in his dancing, and that this is common in PR.
So the slot was there, at PR, at the times that musicians in NY started marketing Latin music under the "salsa" umbrella catch phrase.

I'm sorry are you suggesting that Salsa dancing only came into existence when a whole heap of music was labelled as 'Salsa' by Masucci/Pacheco?

Palladium mambo was very much a slotted dance, so no, we're going back way before the 60's. Of course the slot was there, given the incredible cross talk between PR and mainland USA.

If you are referring to the 30's - 40's, I shall than remind you that Terence said several times before that the slot came out of the "box" format that was very much common back at those days in popular dances such as the Guajira, Bolero and Danzon.
I remember him saying that Cuban Mambo also used the "box" format to some extent.
So it is reasonable to assume that the "slot" format, which is a "line" came out of the "box" format, which is a "square".
A square consists of 4 lines

I'm sorry are you suggesting that a box format dance is invariably destined to produce a slotted dance?

I refer you to this post from Terence several years ago.

http://www.salsaforums.com/showpost.php?p=79172&postcount=5

--

Whilst there is no doubt evolution from a latin origin, there is also no question that the core of linear Salsa is not purely latino. Further I reject any notion it's just latin with some little western influences.

Actually, I do.
There is no doubt that western music and dancing effected Latin dances, even as early as Contadanza which is the basis of Danzon.
But there is a great difference between a Latin dance drawing from a western dance, and a Latin dance having its core very much replaced by a core of a western one.

The problem is Boogalu is incredibly divided at its ultimate root and then core.

Further it's nothing to do with 'replacing the latin core' it is about other factors coming in and fusing together to make the heart of the dance more than it was.

Yes.
If the core is still Cuban, you can add things over it, if they "fit" with the principles present in the core, that is.
I'll give 2 examples from current salsa dancing:

If you want to add this or that element to a linear salsa style, you can do that as long as you fit it to the slot.

If you want to add an element to Casino you can do so as long as it doesn't interrupt the circularity of the dance.

In both cases you keep the core, but "flavor" the dance with other influences.

The problem is that at the very heart some of the core elements are more than just Cuban.

No, we do not.
Of course the core is not the "ultimate root", but it draws from that root, and doesn't "break" it; it uses it as a basis.
You can't build your building without a strong foundation, and the roots are exactly that...

Good, I'm glad we established that.

Yes I do.
No where does it say that a hybrid must contain equal parts of all the components, and be influenced by each and every one of them the same way and to the same extent.

And yet there is a huge distance between the 'influences' you, Ara and others allow, and the sheer fact of combination.

I think that you are the one who misunderstood; no, salsa does not equal son.
BUT, much of the core of salsa is son!

Let's to an experiment; pick your favorite classic salsa tune.
Listen to it, and recognize the basic elements.
You will find out that it has very much in common with son; lyrics, structure and many rhythmic elements are from son!
Clave, tumbao of the congas, martillo of the bongos, bass tumbao, guiro pattern, the maracas pattern, the montuno (which came from... ready? son montuno!), the campana patterns (some of them), the sonero form of singing.
All of those, and probably some more things not listed here, are directly from son!
There are, of course, elements from other types of Latin music and dancing.
The cascara patterns, for example, come from Guaguanco.

Actually you could make arguments that several of those core parts of Son are in fact very much more Afro than Cuban. However that isn't the point. My point is that Salsa is not Son, and thus we must speak about it in different ways and in a different context.

 

[el_Che]

If we loosely agree on the above, then we need to see those elements when quality salsa music is being played. We can do so by watching the rhythm section: Congas, bongos and timbales, representing Africa. The maracas and guiros, representing the indeginious influence. The piano, wind section, etc. representing Europe. The singers, or for real salsa, the soneros, will have the ability to improvise on the spot when singing live, to tell their stories and sometimes humorous statements. That will come from Spain and the trovador culture, which many believe were taken there by the Moors (Arabs/North Africans), earlier on in their history.

So, when you see a concert of salsa when authentic music (I bet someone is going to ask me to define authentic salsa music, as well...LOL), you should see a sonero improvising, at some stage at least, and you should see all the cultural influences playing together in coherence, while providing room for improvisations ('communication'?) on the part of the musicians. The base of all this will be the strongly African influenced rhythm section. The lyrics will many times be street influenced, about anything from love, betrayal, bad boys and even gun fights.

By the same token above, the dance should reflect the musical elements. Question. When you walk into an average salsa club near where you live, how much of the core African or Black, if you like influence do you see? If any of the main influences that made the original music and dance diminish too much, then you are going to have the core of the music and the dance effected.

E.C. Swing...

Over comp... again, ballroom. It started(60s ) to stray even farther from the roots of the genre .

There were simplified forms of spins in the late 50s, and then ,an ice skating figure appeared in Intern style latin.. the " Sit " spin.

No wonder, then, that you only see that in relatively recent videos, from maybe the last 10-15 years or so, but not from videos of the 50's-early \ mid 90's...
Also that explains why you don't see most Cubans doing that - most of them learned on the streets of Cuba, and have probably never seen swing dancing.
But it is still kind of a strange thought, to say the least, that professional Cuban dancers which haven't left Cuba, and most probably did not have very much internet access, still got this from somewhere \ someone.

For example, this (quite famous among Casino dancers) clip of the 2004 "Bailar Casino" Cuban dance competition champions, Yanek Revilla & Diana Rodriguez:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB55wW0Q8wM

This, of course, is as much of a choreographed performance competition dance as one can get, so you can see many "pretzely" turn patterns, spinning, and other stuff used to impress the judges...

 

[el_Che]

It would mean you, given your enshrinement of all things latino, would have to declare all linear styles 'less authentic' than more circular styles.

Well, going with this line of thought, it would be correct to say that the linear styles are less authentic compared to the circular ones.
But, this will not be a completely true statement due to the existence of PR style, which is linear to some degree...

I'm sorry are you suggesting that Salsa dancing only came into existence when a whole heap of music was labelled as 'Salsa' by Masucci/Pacheco?

Palladium mambo was very much a slotted dance, so no, we're going back way before the 60's. Of course the slot was there, given the incredible cross talk between PR and mainland USA.

No, I am not saying that the dancing only came into existence when it was given the name "salsa".
This, however, brings forth the following question, which Terence might be able to answer:
When exactly did "salsa" become a dance?
When did it depart from Mambo dancing?

I'm sorry are you suggesting that a box format dance is invariably destined to produce a slotted dance?

I refer you to this post from Terence several years ago.

http://www.salsaforums.com/showpost.php?p=79172&postcount=5

Nope, that's not what I am saying; I am saying that these 2 formats can comfortably exist together in one dance.
If I remember correctly, Terence mentioned that in classic Mambo they actually do so quite well

Thank you for referring me to this post by Terence:

"

Not quite exact.( the dance we know etc ) the MUSIC was embellished from the already well defined mambo . As to name , it was used as a sales tool to revive lagging interest in the genre .( it had been around, the word, for much longer than that )

What has changed predominantly is the style (s). Having said that, it still is largely the same in many instances, step wise .

As to " swing " being an influence-- absolutely, but so were several other dances . The " slot " to which all refer, comes from WC swing ( as do several variations ) and was developed in Calif in the late thirties--one of the reasons ?-- space .
Other dances that have a marked influence, Bolero and Danzon .

"

I think that one can see the logic behind my thought about the slot being developed form the "box" format; if you are moving along 4 lines, I assume it is logical for one to try moving only on some of them, neglecting others, and eventually "simplify" it to only one line...
Anyway, now that we know it's not the case, I guess Terence can tell us if the slot came to WCS "out of the blue", just made up in an "eureka!" moment, or did it come to existence based on something that existed before, like the "box" format.

Anyway, that can get us back to the issue of North American salsa styles being less authentic in comparison to the Latin \ S American \ Caribbean styles, because some of their major characteristics come from North American dance forms...

Whilst there is no doubt evolution from a latin origin, there is also no question that the core of linear Salsa is not purely latino. Further I reject any notion it's just latin with some little western influences.

North American salsa styles - it might just be so.
See my previous comment.

The problem is Boogalu is incredibly divided at its ultimate root and then core.

Further it's nothing to do with 'replacing the latin core' it is about other factors coming in and fusing together to make the heart of the dance more than it was.

Boogalu is quite the special case, as (just like you have mentioned) it is a clear "50 / 50" mix of Latino & (North) Americano, that came about during the late 60's.
BTW, is it just me, or does Bugaloo sound like "hippie music", with all those tambourines and other stuff?

The problem is that at the very heart some of the core elements are more than just Cuban.

I guess that there are PR elements and "panlatino" elements as well.
But if you are referring to the western elements in linear dancing, go to my previous comments once again...

And yet there is a huge distance between the 'influences' you, Ara and others allow, and the sheer fact of combination.

Again, that can mean that some of the styles that exist today are not authentic as some other styles...
Like said countless times before, not all change is evolution, and not all combination is good as well.

Actually you could make arguments that several of those core parts of Son are in fact very much more Afro than Cuban. However that isn't the point. My point is that Salsa is not Son, and thus we must speak about it in different ways and in a different context.

Yes, they are!
But that's part of the beauty of it; the "Afro" is an essential, integral, core, part of everything which is Cuban culture (and this is very muc hreflected in Cuban music, BTW).
The Afro heritage is very much alive in Cuba, even though it's now almost completely in the realm of folklore rather than religion...
Also, I have read some historical sources that trace the development of clave as an Afro-Cuban, and not purely Afro, element; the roots of clave as we know it today, as a 4/4 musical pattern, lay at the docks of Havana in the XVIII century.
Many musical historians set the "point of divergence" from "Afro" to "Afro - Cuban" at the mid XVIII to early XIX centuries, which is represented at the music in the change from mainly 6/8 to mainly 4/4, although some 6/8 rhythms exist up to this day...

As for Son and Salsa, it would not be correct at all to say that "Son is Salsa", but it would be correct to some extent to sat that "Salsa is Son", because Son is the core of Salsa (I though most people here agree on that...) .

Are you saying that introduction of multiple spins in slot salsa was to balance out lack of circles in slot salsa, and making it more authentic?

Nice one!

 

[hyh]

Salsa the dance, as you correctly mentioned is also a mixture of different elements, with a strong African presence. That presence is in its cores. You have Eurpean and other elements. Actually, if Terence is reading this I would appreciate his view on the proportion of the indigenous influence, if any on the actual dancing, as to me, at least in its original form it looks like the African element is the dominant factor, followed by what was fused from Europe.

I remembered reading what follows a long time ago.

Interesting excerpt from Evolution of Mambo, Salsa and Cha Cha by Paul F. Clifford

There is some debate whether Salsa and Mambo are the same dance. However, if we get technical, we could argue that Bolero, Rumba, Son, Mambo, Salsa, Cumbia and others often appear to be the same dance. The fact is that in modern music each dance often includes musical segments from other dances and so, one dance borrows moves from another. Eventually the moves merge - so each dance often appears to have vaguely similar timings and steps, but in a pure piece, the mood of the music, the rhythm, the tempo and the dance technique for each is different. So, don't let people confuse you with technicalities! Each of these dances has a uniqueness of it's own! You might be able to transfer many moves from one dance to another, but there are many instances, where the tempo suggests footwork and moves that just don't work anywhere but in that one dance.

Cha Cha evolved from Mambo, and there are many musical arrangements that beg for both dances to be performed in the same piece of music. Sometimes, it is a Cha Cha piece that has a Mambo interlude and sometimes it is a Mambo piece with a Cha Cha interlude. So it is really worth while knowing how to do both! The same can be said for Mambo and Salsa. The biggest difference between Mambo and Salsa is that, rarely can you Salsa to contemporary North American Music. In contrast, there are lots of tracks that beg you to do the Mambo!

Despite its African resonance, the mambo can be traced back to an unexpected source, English country dance, which in the 17th century became the contredanse at the French court and later the contradanza in Spain. In the 18th century the contradanza reached Cuba where it was known as danza and became the national dance. In the 19th century, with the arrival of planters and their slaves who fled from Haiti after it became independent, a particularly spicy syncopation called the cinquillo was added to the danza (tango derived from the contradanza also has this cinquillo).

Through this time, the Native African Folk Rumba which is essentially a sex pantomime danced extremely fast with exaggerated hip movements, was merged into the contradanza to form Son and by the end of the 19th century the formality of the contradanza was replaced by freer, more spontaneous dancing. This new kind of music was known as danzon.

Danzon became the dance of wealthy Cuban Society. Son was popular amongst the middle class and Rumba, well, the Americans popularized it by turning it into a modified version of Son. The Danzon has now evolved into Mambo and Salsa.

The danzon had several sections, one of which was a lively coda, which musicians soon got in the habit of improvising. It was played by brass bands or tipicas, which gave way in the 1920s to lighter combos known as charangas. These featured violins, sometimes a cello, a piano, a guiro (a grooved calabash scraped with a comb), a clarinet, a flute, a bass and double drums adapted from European military drums.

Charangas, notably, that of the flautist Antonio Arcano, flourished in the late 1930's. In 1938, Arcano's cellist, Orestes Lopez, composed a danzon he called "Mambo," and in the coda Arcano introduced elements from the Son, a lively musical genre from Cuba's Oriente province. As a signal to band members that they could start their solos, Arcano would call out, "Mil veces mambo!" ("A thousand times mambo!"). In the Latin American music known as salsa, the mambo is a theme that is played in unison by the rhythm section and serves as a transition between two improvised passages.

In 1959 Fidel Castro's revolutionary forces took control of Cuba and many composers and musicians fled to America. In New York, the music of Cuba became inextricably mixed with the musical variations of Puerto Rico and American popular music. New styles of music, by new types of groups hit the Latin Club scene. New instruments were introduced and new sounds produced, giving a wild new interpretation of the Mambo. Trombones found a place besides trumpets, making the sound brassier. The traditional instruments were relegated to supporting the rhythm sections. The music was wild and classy and extremely popular. Then, with the advent of the Beatles in the 1960s, the bubble burst and the popularity of Latin Music declined throughout North America and Europe. Something had to be done to revitalize interest in Latin Music! So, in the early 1970s, Fania records, needing a way to promote their artists and music, started to think about the problem. They needed a name for their product. Something that captured the markets attention! "Salsa" was born!

Development of the music and dance continues but is no longer restricted to the creative talents of musicians from the Caribbean, Miami or New York. New bands and musical variations have origins in Colombia, Europe, Australia and Japan.

...

I suppose 17th and 18th century is a little too long ago for Terence to verify personally, but I'm sure he has a take on this too.

 

[terence]

This, however, brings forth the following question, which Terence might be able to answer:
When exactly did "salsa" become a dance?
When did it depart from Mambo dancing?



I think that one can see the logic behind my thought about the slot being developed form the "box" format; if you are moving along 4 lines, I assume it is logical for one to try moving only on some of them, neglecting others, and eventually "simplify" it to only one line...


I guess Terence can tell us if the slot came to WCS "out of the blue", just made up in an "eureka!" moment, or did it come to existence based on something that existed before, like the "box" format.

1... The one thing that is on record, is the NYC DJ who used the term in one of his broadcasts in the late 60s. However... I do not recall ever seeing or hearing anyone using or dancing and using the name as a reference .

Some time lines are tenuous because its nigh impossible to be "there " at that moment in time. There are those that say the middle 70s, but, the predominant salsa style only club , in some areas I knew of, didnt become visible until the early mid 80s .

The Cubans in Tampa, had the closest thing one can get to that format, that had been in existence for over 50yrs ,when I visited it in the early 70s. It was downtown ,and in a very large ornate building/room. I, as usual , was the only non hispanic. The music/dance ,was all very authentic in the styles they were doing, from Mambos to Danzons. Even PD was played !.

It was also ,the very typical " Mom and Pop " family nite out .

Even thru the 90s in Tampa for e.g.many of the older Cubanos still refered to the dance as Mambo.

As to "departure ", I dont think it ever really made a complete one, after all, we still dance and use many of the variations that were/are commonplace in Mambo .

To my "eye/ear", the changes are much more evident in the styles of music that people will now accept as "danceable" .A lot of this is possibly due to how they have been taught, and or the venues they visit.

2... " Box ".. the structure of this can still be seen in Cuban Son and is part of its foundational makeup .

The old Mambo Box, is still taught as a beginners variation, as its a preface to an Open break ( NOT to be confused,as it often is, with a Separation break).


3... Theres a whole history, well documented on Dance Forums in the Swing section.Steve Pastor, has done a very comprehensive study of the Swing genres, to which I, and several others, have contributed .

Briefly,WCS was formulated in Long beach Calif. Time lines again, are slightly less tenuous, but around the late 40s early 50s. The "inventor " put the commonplace swing format , into a straight line ( the Slot ). this, so the story goes, allowed for more floor participation .

I worked, and was taught WCS, by 2 of the innovators,whilst working in LA , and also new the author of numerous articles and books on the subject ( Laurre Haille ).

Heres the odd thing.. A/M studios on the east coast, only had ECS on its program ,and Calif was one of the very few States, where the A/M studios taught only WCS.

So, I think it was a completely new concept, but, Heres a thought that Ive had in the past ,about how and or where, it may have evolved, and or been inspired by.

Theres a dance form in Calif. called " Slicker "; its a B/room style dance, predicated, so it seems, on dancing in a straight, continuous line ,down the dance floor .

The current authority on WCS, is Skippy Blair, who has been teaching it in Calif. since the 50s.

 

[MacMoto]

[Mod]

I would like to split the discussion about the core/source/roots of salsa dance from this thread but don't know where to start... :sigh:

It would help so much if people who want to talk about something other than the topic of the thread would start a new one instead of hijacking it
[/Mod]

 

[terence]

I suppose 17th and 18th century is a little too long ago for Terence to verify personally, but I'm sure he has a take on this too.

You obviously have NOT seen the Picture in my closet..

 

[terence]

There is some debate whether Salsa and Mambo are the same dance.


However, if we get technical, we could argue that Bolero, Rumba, Son, Mambo, Salsa, Cumbia and others often appear to be the same dance.


.

Cha Cha evolved from Mambo,

1... Intrinsically, yes.. style wise ? , no.

2... All appearing to be the same dance ? .. to the inexperienced eye, maybe, but, ... the tempi, and construction of some, are completely different .

3... And for the last time, Cha Cha is an evolution of Guajira, NOT Mambo; music and dance may be loosely related, and incorporated in some cases, but each have their own identity ( as should all Latin dances ) .

 

[DJ Ara]

I just wanted to put some things in perspective and clarify a few points that are fundamental in defining my and other people here who hold more or less the same position as regards the 'international salsa scene'!

Firstly, what was argued here has nothing to do with the notion, "everyone has to research and/or go to Cali, P.R., Cuba, etc.". It has to do with recommending these core salsa destinations to those who want to take their salsa dancing and musical understanding further, and this by definition includes those who 'are', or are aspiring to be professionals, which would incidentally indicate they being in possession of more than a superficial passion for this dance/music genre.

Researching this destinations is a source of knowledge in an international scene that in some areas lacks significant sources of relevant referance. As mentioned before, the research can be done through reading literature, both in the internet and books, as well as magazines. The personal visit and experience option is the best, as it is in any other field of study when one goes to the 'core' for answers.

If people are more vigilant and inquisitive, then perhaps they can reduce the 'performance dancing' attitude in crowded night club dance floors; improve musicality and reduce the disconnection with the music that seems to be something that the scene suffers from considerably, so much so that many in it do not seem to comprehend the relevance of a dance professional having even a basic knowledge of top level orchestras and their music.

Secondly, those who refuse to accept that the majority of the 'professionals' in the scene are "not up to it", should keep in mind that a proportion of 51% mediocre, would still mean a majority. If they refuse to accept even a 51% rate, then would they accept a 49% (which is no where near the case)? And if so, would that mean that everything was OK and business as usual for everyone? Food for thought.

Thirdly. We have discussed emphasised stepping in all the major styles. Do any of the nay sayers wonder what happened to solid training in the stepping fundamentals that could perhaps later be develped through experience into something more personal by individual dancers?

Fourthly. We have touched upon 'space control'. Does anyone here think that the incidents of bruising and injuries one comes across in salsa dance floors are something 'normal', or do they actually realize that poor space control is a result of poor dance instruction?

Now, about the 'styles'. Eventhough it has been repeated various times that this discussion is not about which 'style' is the best, nor that turning and spinning are bad. The issue has been out of context performance dancing in ANY or ALL of the major styles, usually seen because many people are taught their techniques in an erroneous context - that is, "just do it technically correctly and you will 'look good' and all will be fine!".

The LA style that seems to have a 'performance attitude', has gotten a little bit more attention, but again, if it calls itself a salsa style, then it can be danced in a more night club friendly manner, by using the core references as guidance. So, it is up to the teachers and the dancers themselves to make it less performy and more practical for social dancing, meaning that it again not so much about the style, but in identifying the essence of what salsa social dancing is all about.

The issue about the core of salsa dancing, if some people missed it is that one can associate the turning and spinning more with the icing side of the equasion, while the stepping are more to the core, as all salsa dancing starts there. Furthermore, it has been proven that all the major styles have intricate stepping techniques within their methodologies. Therefore, for those who want to "takes things" further, it is essential to search for the stepping aspects that may not have been taught to them, and even to perhaps ask, why!

I wrote the above to clarify and demonstrate at least some of the main points that were made in this thread, most of which have been lost to certain participants, as well as those who have 'boycotted' this discussion. Of course, the jibberish and the high emotions did not help the situation much, but again that is sometimes part and parcel of discussions when the participants are literally miles away from each other, in distance as well as experience, hence their points (and level) of reference.

I hope these statements clear up all the misunderstandings and to put an end to this senseless back and forth and repetitions, as most of the points made are not very complex, if one puts away one's emotions and starts thinking logically.

 

[el_Che]

I will not quote the latest post here by DJ Ara (as this thread is already over 100 pages long), but I just want to say that this post, #1018, is a very good summary of the original topic of this thread "Technique VS Musicality / Sabor", even though the words "Musicality" and "Sabor" are not mentioned in this post even once!

 

[salsera_alemana]

It would mean you, given your enshrinement of all things latino, would have to declare all linear styles 'less authentic' than more circular styles.

I'm sorry are you suggesting that Salsa dancing only came into existence when a whole heap of music was labelled as 'Salsa' by Masucci/Pacheco?

Palladium mambo was very much a slotted dance, so no, we're going back way before the 60's. Of course the slot was there, given the incredible cross talk between PR and mainland USA.

I just asked my husband again about what he danced before the 70s until the name "salsa" was created for what we are dancing now.

He told me that before the 70s in Puerto Rico they called it Guaguancó and Guaracha, depending on the music, and Pachanga came in the 60s. He says it was danced the same way as salsa today (the basics), linear style. When this was made popular again in the 70s under the name salsa, it became fancier, with cross body lead and other turns. Before, it was simpler, he said, but the step was the same. Also, most people danced linear style, back and forth. However, it was taught back and forth, and left and right (to both sides) as a variation from back and forth. Everybody was free to dance the way they wanted and that is what they did.

So I do not think that linear style is less authentic than Cuban circular style. And I really do not think that WCS influenced salsa in Puerto Rico at that time. Even today I believe that most people in Puerto Rico have no clue what WCS is, at least that is what my husband thinks. As I mentioned before, he had no clue, either, until we wanted to learn a different dance to salsa but had no clue what swing was and went to check out a lesson.

Maybe Terence knows more on this subject?

 

[terence]

Even today I believe that most people in Puerto Rico have no clue what WCS is, at least that is what my husband thinks.

There are 1000s of BR style people who dont know what WCS is. In fact, many outside of the U.S, have no knowledge of american style BR, so, it would be fair to say that,the majority of latinos are also in that same category.
Would also agree that , Guguanco and Guaracha styles of music ,seemed to be much more common back when (usually, very little Romantica played in clubs but Cha Cha was much more popular ) .

 

[DJ Ara]

I will not quote the latest post here by DJ Ara (as this thread is already over 100 pages long), but I just want to say that this post, #1018, is a very good summary of the original topic of this thread "Technique VS Musicality / Sabor", even though the words "Musicality" and "Sabor" are not mentioned in this post even once!

LOL!

In my humble opinion, and I know that you agree that musicality and even 'sabor' have to be in context of the dance.

So, how can people who are not learning to dance salsa properly have sabor and musicality as regards a distinct genre such as salsa (in its many forms)?

Many people who are more musically inclined than others and who may happen to have some initial 'sabor', may look anything but, if their manifestations of these faculties are hijacked by a salsa 'teacher' who has neither, that is a 'teacher' who keeps teaching patterns, turns, spins and more spins, without putting them in a musical context. What chance do they have at having 'sabor' and musicality, when their teacher doesn't have clue as regards these very faculties.

Of course, the fact that by constant repetition of techniques the student can create a 'flow' in movement, feel comfortable, hence satisfied by his or her performance, whilst enjoying it to 'background music' is undeniable.

Of course, the acquisition of this 'empty' skill is sometimes mistaken for musicality and sabor, when most of the time it contains neither. The student (and more often than not, the teacher) find comfort in movements imprinted in their muscle memory and end up enjoying the 'flow', which certainly is one aspect of the dance, but they enjoy this independent of the music with only a superficial connection with the it.

So going back to the main argument of this thread where you, I and others have been trying to point out the significance of researching the core salsa countries to bring in a better understanding of musicality, sabor and other important aspects, when these are not shown, explained and taught to them in their local salsa venues, and the reaction to this simple logical proposition, which more or less confirmed that the majority were indeed in need of a wake up call and a more scholarly approach to fill in the gaps in their salsa education.

I believe that the areas in need of improvement would be at least the following:

1. Stepping. A better understanding of the role of stepping in salsa dancing. That is, a stronger foundational training in this area, before the student is taket to learn the more 'cosmetic' stuff. Stepping is a fundamental aspect of salsa in all three major salsa styles.

2. A better musical education. The classes should be taught with real salsa music and not 'progressive' stuff like hip hop or fusion 'salsa' stuff.

3. When learning the turns, the teacher has to explain that these have to be performed in relation to the music, not for their own sake! Of course, only a teacher who does have clue, will be able to explain this, but that issue itself is worth another 100 page discussion....LOL!

4. The student HAS to be taught space control and dance floor ettiquete!


When the above four ideas (at least) are followed in a teaching program in a proper methodic manner, then we can worry about musicality and sabor, as the basis for the possession of these faculties HAS to be established by 'good start'.

The above approach is better than 'teachers' making money while creating a generation of spinners and turners who have no idea about the connection of what they do with the music, and then making some more money by teaching the same students 'special' musicality classes.

Who are the 'teachers' who teach these 'late¿ musicality classes? Usually those teachers who, if they had a minute idea about musicality, would have taught it to their students from day 1! LOL

So once again, it is important for students (and salsa teachers who really care about their own quality and knowledge) who want to go further with their dancing to research the core salsa destinations to fill in gaps in their knowledge, specially if they find it difficult to do so locally.