Technique vs Musicality/Sabor

[vit]

Correct, if by N American you mean: dancers of mixed ethnicities, mostly but not solely P Ricans and Cubans, living in the US. This was preceeded by the mambo greats mixing other musical genres (particularly jazz) into the traditional Cuban mambo format.

Do we have evidences of traditional Cuban mambo format

As I understand lesson by Rufus Dustin that I mentioned in one post, around 1925-1935 some forms of square rumba were danced in NY clubs, previously brought from Havana. It was danced on 1. It was Machito, a black Cuban conga player, who changed the timing of congas from downbeats to upbeats, so that band knew where '1' was. And people in NY clubs started dancing on new rhythmical structure of the music, so they started dancing on 2 (they didn't count the music, they just danced on the beats). As I understand that lesson, it was named mambo in parallel with this (connected with snake Black Mamba from Africa, and a woman called Mamba in Santeria - combination of African and Christian religion, but since he was a man, instead of mamba this became MambOoo)

So what is traditional Cuban mambo format ?

 

[wildbill20056]

You were being too general, and that was erroneous in the context of this discussion.

Yeah, that's not coherent.

The roots are the roots and they have to be adhered to. Changing almost everything and still calling it 'salsa' does not mean that you are adhering to the roots!

Agreed.

A lot of the dancing in the international scene (there are exceptions) is NOT salsa, but a mutated spoof version, which is an empty shell, devoid of essence and often without much musicality either.

I spose your moving from most, to alot represents progress.

All you are left with is ballroom style immitations (read: bad ballroom dancing) of what salsa looks like to a 'gringo'. People who dance it socially may enjoy themselves and feel amazed at their own abilities to spin and turn in patterns, and to meet new people while doing so. No problem there, as always, as such people are not the issue here.

Oh now we're drawing even stronger racial lines, fantastic.

The issue has to do with the people who sell this spoof version as salsa dancing and have convinced thousands of people that what they dance is authentic just because of their numbers and because what they do is called 'salsa'!

Again you're simply criticising a salsa scene, worldwide, which does not exist, 'generally speaking.' We've also established turning and spinning are not in any sense non authentic.

The essence is in the roots. Just saying "I dance salsa, therefore I must be adhering to the roots" is erroneous!

Only if you don't dance salsa and label what you dance incorrectly.

In many parts of the scene the dance has become purely 'flash and trash', but the we have people even defending this by saying that in their 'subjective' opinion this flash and trash is musical and full of sabor.

Nope, no one has said any 'trash' is full of sabor. Quote otherwise, or please don't make such assertions. You're just creating a strawman.

Further we see no empirical evidence of this pure 'flash and trash' taking over at all.

We have famous salsa personalities doing salsa shows and classes while dancing to other genres of music! Where are the ROOTS there?

Please show me that this is a common phenomenon. When you cannot, understand this is irrelevant.

You can attempt to split hairs all you want, but it wont change the truth, what will change the truth is for the salsa dance teachers to do their research looking at the core references of salsa dancing and the MUSIC, while the DJs have to do the same! The promoters, if they do not belong to neither of the afformentioned professionals, have to do their homework too.

No one at all disagrees with this.

No one is asking all professionals to take trips Cali, PR and Cuba (because we want them to save their money to attend the next salsa Congress and partake in the Helsinki Style guaguanco workshops LOL), even if that would be a second to none educational experience for the right professional with the right mindset. SERIOUSLY, travelling to these places with the wrong mindset, while thinking that you are a professional, when you are NOT, will not be benefitial either.

Please patronise some more. I'm sure the professional Cuban dancers who teach in Glasgow will be glad to know that because they teach in other parts of the world, that what they teach is less authentic and thus should be 'lol'd' at.

I mentioned somewhere earlier that one dancer claiming to have won some salsa championships or competitions in Europe, and being one of the top 5 dancers on the continent, showed up here in Cali at one of the top salsa schools to take some courses.

According to the director of this school, in a personal conversation with me, when she put the guy through a basic beginner's testing (which she does with every new student), the man did not even have an initiantes understanding of stepping and body movement and motion. I gather that the sad truth did not put off this guy and he took courses to improve himself, but I can just imagine how other 'champions' from his part of the world who if told of their 'weaknesses' will start throwing tantrums while spinning out of the school exit door like a tornado....LOL

Great anecdote, sadly I'm not sure what you expect it to prove, given it's just an anecdote.

What people like me are hoping for here is that in this day and age of the internet, DVD, Cable Channels, and the old fashion books and magazines, the least people in the business can do is take an all round scholarly attitude to working with something they usually they claim to 'love'. Perhaps frequenting local latino salsa clubs can also be a source education if there are frequented by a high number of people from the core countries. That would be a good start. Those wanting more can travel further, perhaps having to miss a Congress or two, in so doing, but hey, they can always do a Helsinki Style Guaguanco workshop in some other international event....

Hurrah mock teachers outside latino countries some more, it's great.

What people better informed than you are about the 'international salsa scene' are telling you is that there is pandemic of ill educated professionals. There are always bad apples, but quite frankly 90% of the top professionals people on this board look up to are experts in everything and more that you could ask of them.

So again, who says spinning and turning from beginning to an end of a song is musical? Please raise your hands, so we can all see!

No one? You have a very strange idea of what people are saying in this thread.

 

[Smejmoon]

It was Machito, a black Cuban conga player, who changed the timing of congas from downbeats to upbeats, so that band knew where '1' was.

Can you give examples of before and after?

 

[vit]

I just wrote what that man said on the lesson, which was about history of latin american dancing in the States. Unfortunately, I have no knowledge beyond that, that's why I'm asking do we have evidence of traditional mambo (whether as dance or as music), if someone has more knowledge about that

Tradition and heritage is frequently being referenced in this discussion, but it is quite obscure what actually it is

 

[DJ Ara]

Yeah, that's not coherent.

One man's informed wisdom is another's incoherence.....

Agreed.

I knew the time would come.

I spose your moving from most, to alot represents progress.

Damn, slip of the tongue, I meant most!

Oh now we're drawing even stronger racial lines, fantastic.

First I was accused of being a 'Stylist', and now you bring race into it? LOL

Again you're simply criticising a salsa scene, worldwide, which does not exist, 'generally speaking.' We've also established turning and spinning are not in any sense non authentic.

Why is it so difficult for some you to understand a simple point: Turning and spinning sensessly (without relating) to music is non-authentic and without sabor. The same goes for stepping - IN ANY STYLE! If you turn and limit your spins when they make sense musically, then you are dancing salsa.

Find out when such movements are relevant to salsa music, and you will be enlightened.

Only if you don't dance salsa and label what you dance incorrectly.

That is what I said EXACTLY!

Nope, no one has said any 'trash' is full of sabor. Quote otherwise, or please don't make such assertions. You're just creating a strawman.

This thread is full of people protecting turning and spinning, without putting it in context. You just did in this post as well!

Further we see no empirical evidence of this pure 'flash and trash' taking over at all.

Well, I respectfully disagree with you, and I hazard a guess that everyone who has been saying more or less the same thing here as me, will disagree also!

Please show me that this is a common phenomenon. When you cannot, understand this is irrelevant.

I did not say it was 'common', but it is happening and it is a serious symptom of where the scene is headed!

No one at all disagrees with this.

In the past no one at all disagreed with me when I said that people should turn and spin according to the music, if at all. Then the music would start and it was business as usual.

Very few people are taught even basic musical interpretation. It is usually, learn the techniques, patterns, turns and spins and then off you go to the dance floor. As a DJ I have seen this for years, and so has DJ Yuca, it seems. I am sure that Terence will have a similar view. Salsera - Alemana has also been bumped and bruised by enough of them to know.

Please patronise some more. I'm sure the professional Cuban dancers who teach in Glasgow will be glad to know that because they teach in other parts of the world, that what they teach is less authentic and thus should be 'lol'd' at.

Please do not attempt to stir the proverbial s%$". No one has made such a remark. My 'Helsinki' comment referred to stuff that people make up and market!

I hope things are clear now!

Great anecdote, sadly I'm not sure what you expect it to prove, given it's just an anecdote.

It being more of a SAD anectode may prove more than some people want to admit......

Hurrah mock teachers outside latino countries some more, it's great.

I am only 'mocking' the bad ones. The good ones are saving the butt of the international scene, just like the good DJs and promoters.

What people better informed than you are about the 'international salsa scene' are telling you is that there is pandemic of ill educated professionals.

Good then we agree!

There are always bad apples, but quite frankly 90% of the top professionals people on this board look up to are experts in everything and more that you could ask of them.

I am sure that there are good ones there, but a 90% proportion is just wishful thinking. Just like before, how many of them would survive professionally in the core salsa countries (Yes, I know some of them are from the core countries )?

One more point you should keep in mind. Most people who learn salsa out there do not do so directly with the 'top' professionals. I am sure that you know that a lot of people will see a sign on some club or bar that says "Salsa Nite on Wednesdays - Beginners' classes at 7:30pm", and that will be their introduction to salsa!

Does anyone here think that most of these randomly found salsa professionals are in any 'top' category?

No one? You have a very strange idea of what people are saying in this thread.

The same goes for 'them'. In this very post there have been insinuations of racism towards me as regards non-latinos and Latinos, almost in the same breath LOL!

Seriously, the only 'ism' you can accuse me of is ANTI-MEDIOCRISM!

 

[terence]

As I understand lesson by Rufus Dustin that I mentioned in one post, around 1925-1935 some forms of square rumba were danced in NY clubs, previously brought from Havana. It was danced on 1.


It was Machito, a black Cuban conga player, who changed the timing of congas from downbeats to upbeats, so that band knew where '1' was. And people in NY clubs started dancing on new rhythmical structure of the music, so they started dancing on 2 (they didn't count the music, they just danced on the beats).

So what is traditional Cuban mambo format ?

The form that was danced, ( still is in some areas ) is Guaracha, very up tempo Square form, and, it is danced on a SQQ time sequence .

And, you have your info a little mixed up ( or you misunderstood ).

The term " mambo " came into the public domain thru Cachao who was responsible for the musical aspect, and that was in 1938. Following that time line, Perez Parado is usually given credit for the dance structure ( tho I have serious doubts about that.. reason ?.. Cubans in Cuba probably utilised the existing Bolero format which STILL exists as a dance in its own right)..

There are old movies from the early 30s, where Bolero was being danced as a show type "dance " .In fact I believe it was Veloz and Yolanda . ( I actually worked close to one of their studios in LA ) or Antonio and Renee De Marco , who also were in 30s movies ,dancing the same show styles .

so , theres the original " roots " musically and structurally .

 

[vit]

Thanks, terence

I watched the lesson again yesterday (although a bit briefly), will check it again to make sure that I didn't wrote something that Dustin didn't say and correct in above posts if necessary

From my remembering, he didn't mention the names of different 'forms of rumba', he just said that they were describing a life/culture in different parts of Havana, some were fast, some were slow, some were more serious, some more fun ... and also demonstrated them with one lady in square format. He didn't mention bolero in that rumba-mambo context, but mentioned and demonstrated it later, as a "cousin of rumba". Also, I can't remember that he mentioned Cachao, but mentioned Perez Prado which came a bit later

It's interesting that role of Machito is described quite briefly in various internet sources, so I didn't find a confirmation for Dustin's story elsewhere, but I suppose he is a competent person in that area

 

[terence]

It's interesting that role of Machito is described quite briefly in various internet sources, but I suppose Dustin is a competent person in that area

I dont know about his knowledge, in the historical background of the Latin genre .

However, my research is on record thru film and print. His dance background ,Im very well aware of that.. but.. let me tell you this. There are many high profile coaches/teachers in my profession ,who neither know nor care ,about the " roots " of dance, other than a cursory explanation , and thats not to say his, is that ..

Most dance teachers, are not academics .

As to Machito, he gets a lot of "print " ,as do several others from that era.Probably the timing of his emergence on the " scene " .

 

[DJ Yuca]

As I understand lesson by Rufus Dustin that I mentioned in one post, around 1925-1935 some forms of square rumba were danced in NY clubs, previously brought from Havana. It was danced on 1. It was Machito, a black Cuban conga player, who changed the timing of congas from downbeats to upbeats, so that band knew where '1' was. And people in NY clubs started dancing on new rhythmical structure of the music, so they started dancing on 2 (they didn't count the music, they just danced on the beats).

That is the 1st time I've ever heard of this idea of Machito changing conga timing (disclaimer: I'm no expert). For a start, although the conga slap is on2, the tumbao starts on 1. And Machito wasn't a conguero anyway afaik (although I expect he was able to play all percussion instruments). Sounds erroneous to me, however Machito's position as one of the big 3 of the mambo era was well deserved imo. What I've heard of his recordings sound amazing all these decades later, and many consider himn to be the 1st exponent of true Latin jazz (as opposed to jazz musicians using Latin elements in certain recordings).

Latin Jazz, Raúl Fernández, is well worth a read, and mentions Machito many times.

 

[terence]

Sounds erroneous to me, however Machito's position as one of the big 3 of the mambo era was well deserved imo.

the 1st exponent of true Latin jazz (as opposed to jazz musicians using Latin elements in certain recordings).

I would agree on both counts . In matter of fact, when in LA, he was invariably booked at the Crescendo, on the " strip ", which many considered more, of a "sit and listen " type club .

 

[bailar y tocar]

So what is traditional Cuban mambo format ?

The term " mambo " came into the public domain thru Cachao who was responsible for the musical aspect, and that was in 1938.

And Machito wasn't a conguero anyway afaik .

In the Cuban film "From Son to Salsa", Cachao is interviewed and confirms that he 'invented' mambo. Perez Prado popularized it in Mexico at first, then in NYC. Machito, Tito Rodriguez and Tito Puente took it from there.

The "square rumba" is a bolero son in Cuba which would be danced contratiempo (on2 or on4).

If anyone changed anything on the conga in that era it would be Chano Pozo. His claim to fame was to bring the conga patterns of guaguanco and other afro-cuban genres to the forefront of the band. He played with Machito et al in NYC in that era before he got into a barfight and was killed.
This is similar to what Tito Puente did for timbales later on and what Changuito has done with drum kits in the 90s.

 

[terence]

In the Cuban film "From Son to Salsa", Cachao is interviewed and confirms that he 'invented' mambo

The Music... NOT the dance

 

[vit]

Yeah ... it looks like Mr. Dustin mixed some things up, unless he had some information not available on the internet ... checked a record of his lesson again. He also stated that Machito came to NY about 1932 and also that he was invited to play in The Savoy club, and that he changed punctuation of the music (from downbeats to upbeats) before he left Cuba. However, in public data it is stated that he moved to NY 1937, and also, I didn't find information that he played congas at all

Can't believe that a man served some misinformation at such a big ballroom event like Blackpool congress

 

[DJ Yuca]

I can.

 

[DJ Yuca]

In the Cuban film "From Son to Salsa", Cachao is interviewed and confirms that he 'invented' mambo. Perez Prado popularized it in Mexico at first, then in NYC. Machito, Tito Rodriguez and Tito Puente took it from there.

Correct but we should also mention Arsenio and some other highly significant figures, including many amazing Cuban congueros in the US in the 50s.

If anyone changed anything on the conga in that era it would be Chano Pozo. His claim to fame was to bring the conga patterns of guaguanco and other afro-cuban genres to the forefront of the band. He played with Machito et al in NYC in that era before he got into a barfight and was killed.

I agree about the significance of Chano Pozo, however in terms of the specific details of who introduced what variations to conga technique, we need to consult experts who were there at the time or who have studied this specific subject in depth.

 

[Smejmoon]

Correct but we should also mention Arsenio and some other highly significant figures, including many amazing Cuban congueros in the US in the 50s.



I agree about the significance of Chano Pozo, however in terms of the specific details of who introduced what variations to conga technique, we need to consult experts who were there at the time or who have studied this specific subject in depth.

The changes in the conga parts from son-montuno to mambo where gradual, evolution not revolution. Or someone can provide soundbites to illustrate big shift?

 

[el_Che]

Yes, I've seen that video before, thanks.

And, actually, if you were paying attention you would have noticed that it was ME that made this comment. Yuca then agreed with me. (Do try to keep up, Che).

Sorry for giving somebody else the credit for your comment; even I sometimes get a bit lost in the 10 pages (or so) added each time I visit this thread...

But then.. that means that the dance started changing as soon as it left Cuba! The North American palladium dancers brought other influences into the dance! Shocking!!!!

The only conclusion we can possibly draw is that Mambo should never have left Cuba in the first place!!

(Since you insist on exagerating my position into either "there is no problem, all change is good" or "there is no problem, nothing has changed", I must insist on exagerating yours. Discussion is so much more fruitful when we talk past each other like this, isn't it?)

No, I do draw such a conclusion; a style can remain authentic and true to its root if it keeps the core.
From what we see in the videos, most of the Palladium dancers did keep the core, and dance in a musical manner.
(and there is nothing wrong with exaggerating something to prove a point... there are whole art styles that do that, like grotesque ) .

Aye, well most Cuban style dancers I've come across in the UK love it.

Now that is the truly shocking thing!
This is yet an another example of mediocrity in the international salsa scene...

Ho hum, here we go.
(Moderators - we really need to change the title of this thread into "Line style vs Cuban style" for Che's benefit. :eyebrow

No, I'm talking about crap floorcraft, full stop. I dance both slot and circular style, remember? By unpredictable I mean "any glance of floor board that is visible at the current moment in time is fair game". One guy I know who is passionate about dancing Cuban style and has been dancing for longer than I have (i.e. 7 yrs), has been known to dance in a salsa night in a crowded pub using about a 4 metre radius for his moves (apparently whilst sober), crashing through multiple couples on the way.

And yes I know that line style dancers have been known to do that too.
For the zillionth time, ITS NOT ABOUT THE DANCE STYLE.

That sounds truly horrible!
Does it get better or worse after he has a few drinks?

Senseless spinning on the social floor may be common (and senseless), but not necessarily all that dangerous.

And the thing is, we've already noticed in our discussion that some people have different perceptions of what is "senseless" and what is "musical" to others.

Yes, it is not obligatorily dangerous, but I can say that some of the worse injuries I had and heard about in salsa clubs were from the elbows of high RMP spinning ladies (and considering the fact that the average gentleman weighs ~50 pounds more than your average lady, maybe it's a good thing that there are many more ladies spinning than gentlemen...) .

Anyway, what I meant in that part of my comment to which you have answered is that although acrobatics are less common today on the social floors, dangerous dipping is still very much common, and so is senseless spinning, which, too, can be quite dangerous...

Yes latinos invented the slot, that's right, stupid me.

Oh and Pachanga,Boogalu. and Mambo all left Cuba fully formed both musically and as dance forms.

The ultimate root is one thing, however dances, as hybrids have multiple roots which grow together. The ultimately extension of the argument you and others make is that the only 'authentic' Salsa is probably Son!

Actually, to some extent, yes they did.
The basic, core, forms left Cuba and PR with some of the musicians that immigrated to NY.
There they continued creating.
It doesn't matter at all if this or that specific peace of music or dance step were conceived in Cuba in 1940 on in NY in 1948, as long as they stem from the core and use the same principles found in the root form.

Like said countless times on this thread by several people,you can add whatever influences you like as long as you stay true to the roots and have a solid core.
As for the remark about Son, a large part of salsa is very much based on Son, and this is true for all types of salsa music.

LOL!

I am waiting for someone to invent the 'Cross Dressing' Style. In the liberal times we live in, this might just turn out to be the next big thing! :mrgreen:

Aren't there enough people dancing the opposite roles nowadays?
We have seen a video example of this not so long ago on this very thread!

That's such a non sequitur.

If I don't know and teach numeracy in the context of its Arabic origins, it will still have those roots, and any change or evolution will do nothing to change that.

Similarly with Salsa, the roots are the roots whether you teach them or not.

Teaching salsa without knowing and using the roots is the same as trying to teach math without knowing and using algebra.
BTW, the numerals we have today look very much like the arabic numerals... so here the "core of mathematics" remains pretty much the same.

In the Cuban film "From Son to Salsa", Cachao is interviewed and confirms that he 'invented' mambo. Perez Prado popularized it in Mexico at first, then in NYC. Machito, Tito Rodriguez and Tito Puente took it from there.

The "square rumba" is a bolero son in Cuba which would be danced contratiempo (on2 or on4).

If anyone changed anything on the conga in that era it would be Chano Pozo. His claim to fame was to bring the conga patterns of guaguanco and other afro-cuban genres to the forefront of the band. He played with Machito et al in NYC in that era before he got into a barfight and was killed.
This is similar to what Tito Puente did for timbales later on and what Changuito has done with drum kits in the 90s.

This is pretty much the same as I heard many times, especially about Cachao inventing Mambo as an "ending part" of some Son Montuno tracks in 1938...

 

[wildbill20056]

Actually, to some extent, yes they did.
The basic, core, forms left Cuba and PR with some of the musicians that immigrated to NY.
There they continued creating.
It doesn't matter at all if this or that specific peace of music or dance step were conceived in Cuba in 1940 on in NY in 1948, as long as they stem from the core and use the same principles found in the root form.

You don't seem to be understanding that Salsa did not leave either Cuba or PR in anything like a slot.

You further don't seem to appreciate just how much of the dances I mentioned were massively impacted by western music and other dance.

Boogalu in particular is a complete hybrid of soul, rnb, and latin rhythms, literally meeting of latino and western/african influences. The latin input is only half the story of its core and roots.

Your definitions however are so open that you can assert as you please. It doesn't matter if specific features of the music or dancer weren't conceived in Cuba, but the core is still Cuban?

Please understand that the core of any dance is about so much more than its ultimate root. You and Ara and other confuse ultimate root with being the only occuptant of the core! Wrong!

The core is developed overtime for all of the dances we speak of, hence the are hybrids! Not simply slightly altered versions of the originals.

Like said countless times on this thread by several people,you can add whatever influences you like as long as you stay true to the roots and have a solid core.
As for the remark about Son, a large part of salsa is very much based on Son, and this is true for all types of salsa music.

Again you don't seem to appreciate the concept of a hybrid. It's not just a question of minor or major influences on an unchanging core. The fact is the core/heart of a dance is built up over time, it is a fusion of all the material that came together to make it.

The ultimate root is at the core, but it is not alone at the core. This is patently obvious.

So it's true the only authentic Salsa is Son? REally? It's not even Salsa.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Smejmoon]

For whatever reason we forget that borrowing from other cultures is at the core of Cuban music and dance.

 

[bailar y tocar]

So it's true the only authentic Salsa is Son? REally? It's not even Salsa.

Actually all Salsa has Son in it unless its Timba and then it could have either Son or Rumba in it.