Technique vs Musicality/Sabor

[DJ Ara]

For whatever reason we forget that borrowing from other cultures is at the core of Cuban music and dance.

You have to distinguish between what is an already an established core and any other influences (icings) that are brought in, because the logic stills stands that if you keep adding to the core, you will change the discipline into something else!

We see the something else already in dances that have lost their core, but still refer to themselves as salsa, no doubt to take advantage of the sales value of the 'exotic' product image that is connected to that name!

 

[wildbill20056]

Actually all Salsa has Son in it unless its Timba and then it could have either Son or Rumba in it.

Oh I do not in any sense devalue Son at all as integral to Salsa and its heritage.

My point is, however, that Son is not Salsa, it is a progenitor.

 

[wildbill20056]

You have to distinguish between what is an already an established core and any other influences (icings) that are brought in, because the logic stills stands that if you keep adding to the core, you will change the discipline into something else!

Agreed, this is how Salsa was born and became distinct from the dances and music that came before it.

We see the something else already in dances that have lost their core, but still refer to themselves as salsa, no doubt to take advantage of the sales value of the 'exotic' product image that is connected to that name!

The issue is that the core, as a rule, isn't lost at all. Musicality, Sabor, and latin passion and style are still values by Salseros the world over.

The problem is that you only accept your personal ideas of what all these things are and how they should look.

 

[DJ Ara]

The issue is that the core, as a rule, isn't lost at all. Musicality, Sabor, and latin passion and style are still values by Salseros the world over.

There is a difference between musicality, Sabor, Latin passion, etc. and the self perceived versions of those same faculties.

Many dancers in the international scene don't have enough abilities nor the notion (often through no fault of their own) to merely control their dance space, let alone be in the possession of all the above talents.

The problem is that you only accept your personal ideas of what all these things are and how they should look.

Me and some others of considerable relevant experience in this very thread!

 

[wildbill20056]

Oh now we're anecdotally saying most dancers on the 'international' scene can't control their dance space.

Now the people in this thread with vastly more salsa congress experience than yourself will tell you, as will I, that this is not an issue with most dancers at the busiest events of the salsa congress.

Further you do not stop to consider that those who disagree with you, Ara, also have considerable relevant experience.

 

[DJ Ara]

Oh now we're anecdotally saying most dancers on the 'international' scene can't control their dance space.

I said 'many'!:mrgreen:

Now the people in this thread with vastly more salsa congress experience than yourself will tell you, as will I, that this is not an issue with most dancers at the busiest events of the salsa congress.

You make it sound like all salsa congress dancers solely live in salsa congresses.

May I suggest that you see all the bumping and bruising in the international scene as the norm, so much so that people see it as part and parcel of social dancing. Why do I make this conclusion? Because very rarely do people even notice when they invade some other person's dance space or bump into him or her, let alone apologize.

This type of MO associated with 'modern' social dancers indicates that space invasion and bumping into people is seen as a norm, so the guilty parties don't notice it, and the people on the receiving end are used to it, and may be guilty of it too. The only people noticing are the ones who are actual SALSA dancers, dancing WITH their partner, hence NOT performing for anyone else and needing a 'stage'!

Seriously, in other parts of the world these types of 'normal' accidents are seen as negligence. I believe that Salsera Alemana implied this, when she mentioned the same phenomenon.

Further you do not stop to consider that those who disagree with you, Ara, also have considerable relevant experience.

If you ask me, it is their 'EXPERIENCE' that is the source of their problems!

Talking of experience, you should perhaps try and draw parallels between that of mine and Terence, as well as El Che and Salsera Alemana, among others, if not in time scale, then to our proximaty to how it is done in core countries!

 

[terence]

I can.

So can I !!.. LOL

 

[vit]

You have to distinguish between what is an already an established core and any other influences (icings) that are brought in, because the logic stills stands that if you keep adding to the core, you will change the discipline into something else!

I still have a problem determining the "established core" (like "classical cuban mambo")

So during a time-line, some African slaves were brought to Cuba (and States), where they also brought their culture - dance and rhythm. It mixed with local culture, and also with some imperial European culture. So, it changed considerably. Then, this mixture was gradually exported to States, and it was also slightly modified even during export. Then it was mixed with various influences in the States, some of it re-imported to Cuba and re-exported again several times. There was also some route via neighbor countries, like Mexico, Argentina etc ... From States, this mixture gradually drifted all around the world, changing further - in States and around the world. In Cuba this mixture also continued changing. Connections between these two paths were partially broken because of embargo

So, Christian culture has, for instance, a reference point - it is year "1", connected with Jesus and with Earth traveling around the Sun. Everything regarding date and time is referencing that point.

What and where is this "reference point" in salsa

 

[Jag75]

In NY dance floors are crowded, so it's essential to control your dance space. It would probably be quite similar in LA. To say people don't control their dance space - well, that's across all demographics, and most people who have at least a year dance experience do control their dance space.

In my personal experience, it's the Cuban style dancers that seem to not control their dance space, and the Latinos at latin parties are the worst! But where I live the Cuban style dancers aren't as hard core as the linear dancers, so they don't have the same interest in reaching a high level of proficiency in the dance (read - in my scene - it may be different elsewhere). At latin parties the majority of the patrons dance all over the place. You ask them and they'll swear dancing is "in their blood" and the rest of us dance "ballroom". I've been stepped on and have had friends stepped on myriad times at these latin parties.

My point? You assert DJ Ara that in the International Salsa Scene floorcraft isn't practiced and is ignored. If I may speak frankly, that's just ********.

Also - you keep talking about "core" elements. Are you serious??? You probably can't even explain Cuban Motion, yet you speak with so much authority on what "core" elements are and how they're lacking in the "International Salsa Scene". Again you DO NOT know that much about the dance to make that kind of judgement. If you DO KNOW - prove it. Explain exactly how the dancing in the "International Scene" is lacking it's core fundamental elements.

"But in Cali they step like this!", "They have sabor goddamit!!!", "They don't spin senselessly!!!" - again you really don't have a clue, spinning developed over many years and certainly requires skill, posture, great balance, in salsa it's much more "grounded" in keeping with the roots, and when I look around me no matter where I'm dancing (Sydney, NY) I see smooth, grounded dancing with of course turns and spins, very much like was danced in the Palladium era. Palladium "mambo" was so far removed from Cuban salsa it's not funny, but kept the foundations of the groundedness, motion and stepping like it does nowadays. You go to workshops and the "salsa stars" as you love calling them generally do remind people to step through everything and transfer weight, even whilst doing some moves involving spins.

Cuban salsa contains pretzels, and many Cuban dancers (in Cuba) use them a LOT. Some may call that excessive, it's not my cup of tea, but go ahead and tell the Cubans they're doing too many "unnecessary pretzels!" - seriously you're so righteous you may as well, you are the authority with God-like ability to judge "sabor" and "lack of fundamental core elements".

Your credibility seriously has eroded beyond redemption. You've made so many assertions and now I'm absolutely certain you don't immerse yourself in the "International Salsa Scene" because frankly you know nothing about it, and to use an Australianism you "talk out your arse".

 

[el_Che]

You don't seem to be understanding that Salsa did not leave either Cuba or PR in anything like a slot.

This statement is only partially true, but I'll get to that in a few lines.
Let's assume that statement is 100% true, for the sake of the argument.
Why is that "wrong"? why is it so "bad" that salsa had no slot at Cuba or PR?
If this is so, then it is reasonable to assume that the slot came from some non Latin dance form, with swing being a main competitor.
That would only mean that the slot concept is foreign to salsa, and is not a part of the authentic core...

Now, why is this statement only partially true, if at all.
It strongly depends upon the time frame you are looking at.
Is your time frame the late 30's and early 40's, or late 60's and early 70's?
Salsera_Alemana mentioned on several occasions before that her PR husband, who has been dancing in PR for his whole life (=since the 60's?), has some sort of a flexible slot in his dancing, and that this is common in PR.
So the slot was there, at PR, at the times that musicians in NY started marketing Latin music under the "salsa" umbrella catch phrase.

If you are referring to the 30's - 40's, I shall than remind you that Terence said several times before that the slot came out of the "box" format that was very much common back at those days in popular dances such as the Guajira, Bolero and Danzon.
I remember him saying that Cuban Mambo also used the "box" format to some extent.
So it is reasonable to assume that the "slot" format, which is a "line" came out of the "box" format, which is a "square".
A square consists of 4 lines

You further don't seem to appreciate just how much of the dances I mentioned were massively impacted by western music and other dance.

Boogalu in particular is a complete hybrid of soul, rnb, and latin rhythms, literally meeting of latino and western/african influences. The latin input is only half the story of its core and roots.

Actually, I do.
There is no doubt that western music and dancing effected Latin dances, even as early as Contadanza which is the basis of Danzon.
But there is a great difference between a Latin dance drawing from a western dance, and a Latin dance having its core very much replaced by a core of a western one.

Your definitions however are so open that you can assert as you please. It doesn't matter if specific features of the music or dancer weren't conceived in Cuba, but the core is still Cuban?

Yes.
If the core is still Cuban, you can add things over it, if they "fit" with the principles present in the core, that is.
I'll give 2 examples from current salsa dancing:

If you want to add this or that element to a linear salsa style, you can do that as long as you fit it to the slot.

If you want to add an element to Casino you can do so as long as it doesn't interrupt the circularity of the dance.

In both cases you keep the core, but "flavor" the dance with other influences.

Please understand that the core of any dance is about so much more than its ultimate root. You and Ara and other confuse ultimate root with being the only occuptant of the core! Wrong!

The core is developed overtime for all of the dances we speak of, hence the are hybrids! Not simply slightly altered versions of the originals.

No, we do not.
Of course the core is not the "ultimate root", but it draws from that root, and doesn't "break" it; it uses it as a basis.
You can't build your building without a strong foundation, and the roots are exactly that...

Again you don't seem to appreciate the concept of a hybrid. It's not just a question of minor or major influences on an unchanging core. The fact is the core/heart of a dance is built up over time, it is a fusion of all the material that came together to make it.

The ultimate root is at the core, but it is not alone at the core. This is patently obvious.

Yes I do.
No where does it say that a hybrid must contain equal parts of all the components, and be influenced by each and every one of them the same way and to the same extent.

So it's true the only authentic Salsa is Son? REally? It's not even Salsa.

I think that you are the one who misunderstood; no, salsa does not equal son.
BUT, much of the core of salsa is son!

Let's to an experiment; pick your favorite classic salsa tune.
Listen to it, and recognize the basic elements.
You will find out that it has very much in common with son; lyrics, structure and many rhythmic elements are from son!
Clave, tumbao of the congas, martillo of the bongos, bass tumbao, guiro pattern, the maracas pattern, the montuno (which came from... ready? son montuno!), the campana patterns (some of them), the sonero form of singing.
All of those, and probably some more things not listed here, are directly from son!
There are, of course, elements from other types of Latin music and dancing.
The cascara patterns, for example, come from Guaguanco.

 

[el_Che]

"But in Cali they step like this!", "They have sabor goddamit!!!", "They don't spin senselessly!!!" - again you really don't have a clue, spinning developed over many years and certainly requires skill, posture, great balance, in salsa it's much more "grounded" in keeping with the roots, and when I look around me no matter where I'm dancing (Sydney, NY) I see smooth, grounded dancing with of course turns and spins, very much like was danced in the Palladium era. Palladium "mambo" was so far removed from Cuban salsa it's not funny, but kept the foundations of the groundedness, motion and stepping like it does nowadays. You go to workshops and the "salsa stars" as you love calling them generally do remind people to step through everything and transfer weight, even whilst doing some moves involving spins.

Palladium dancers weren't obsessed with spinning.
They could do it and did do it once in a while, but I don't remember seeing any of them, in the videos, engaged in it for a long time, or in a non musical fashion.
I also disagree with your statement about them being "far removed" from Cuban salsa; they were very immersed in Rumba, and most probably could dance Son as well.

Cuban salsa contains pretzels, and many Cuban dancers (in Cuba) use them a LOT. Some may call that excessive, it's not my cup of tea, but go ahead and tell the Cubans they're doing too many "unnecessary pretzels!" - seriously you're so righteous you may as well, you are the authority with God-like ability to judge "sabor" and "lack of fundamental core elements".

Have you been to Cuba, have you seen social dancers there, and have you seen any of them using "pretzels"?
I am asking this 100% honestly, with to sarcasm intended.
I have seen hundreds of Cuban social dancers, and never have I witnessed any of them using any "pretzely" moves.
They used only simple stuff, not longer than 8 or even 6 bars (most of the time even 2 or 4 bar "moves") .
I have seen Cuban performers outside Cuba doing "pretzels", both on stage and a little while social dancing.

BTW, does anyone know when, and from where, did the concept of "pretzels" emerge in salsa?
We have had a discussion here about spins, and came to the conclusion they come from ballet.
But what about the over complicated stuff?

 

[DJ Ara]

I still have a problem determining the "established core" (like "classical cuban mambo")

So during a time-line, some African slaves were brought to Cuba (and States), where they also brought their culture - dance and rhythm. It mixed with local culture, and also with some imperial European culture. So, it changed considerably. Then, this mixture was gradually exported to States, and it was also slightly modified even during export. Then it was mixed with various influences in the States, some of it re-imported to Cuba and re-exported again several times. There was also some route via neighbor countries, like Mexico, Argentina etc ... From States, this mixture gradually drifted all around the world, changing further - in States and around the world. In Cuba this mixture also continued changing. Connections between these two paths were partially broken because of embargo

I think if we get bogged down in details, then we will miss the wood for the trees.

To simplify, salsa's musical roots are the Son. Change that core, then you will be left with something else.

Salsa the dance, as you correctly mentioned is also a mixture of different elements, with a strong African presence. That presence is in its cores. You have Eurpean and other elements. Actually, if Terence is reading this I would appreciate his view on the proportion of the indigenous influence, if any on the actual dancing, as to me, at least in its original form it looks like the African element is the dominant factor, followed by what was fused from Europe.

Anyway, staying on the simple view. The core of salsa and its main flavor seems to be Africa, both musically and dance wise. If we agree on that, then lets take it decades ahead when what we know as mambe/salsa were developed. On this modern phase the elements of the barrio and the street elements, where salsa had made its modern home were injected into the music and the dance (Terence may want to interject to correct/elaborate).

If we loosely agree on the above, then we need to see those elements when quality salsa music is being played. We can do so by watching the rhythm section: Congas, bongos and timbales, representing Africa. The maracas and guiros, representing the indeginious influence. The piano, wind section, etc. representing Europe. The singers, or for real salsa, the soneros, will have the ability to improvise on the spot when singing live, to tell their stories and sometimes humorous statements. That will come from Spain and the trovador culture, which many believe were taken there by the Moors (Arabs/North Africans), earlier on in their history.

So, when you see a concert of salsa when authentic music (I bet someone is going to ask me to define authentic salsa music, as well...LOL), you should see a sonero improvising, at some stage at least, and you should see all the cultural influences playing together in coherence, while providing room for improvisations ('communication'?) on the part of the musicians. The base of all this will be the strongly African influenced rhythm section. The lyrics will many times be street influenced, about anything from love, betrayal, bad boys and even gun fights.

By the same token above, the dance should reflect the musical elements. Question. When you walk into an average salsa club near where you live, how much of the core African or Black, if you like influence do you see? If any of the main influences that made the original music and dance diminish too much, then you are going to have the core of the music and the dance effected.

So, Christian culture has, for instance, a reference point - it is year "1", connected with Jesus and with Earth traveling around the Sun. Everything regarding date and time is referencing that point.

In my humble opinion, the Christian culture is nothing but a pagan Sun God religion, with an astrological base of course, packaged to be sold under a new name and agenda. Jesus, representing the Sun (his images with rays shooting out from behind his head), and his 12 disciples representing the 12 signs of the zodiac/months of the year. His birth 25th of December correspondes to the Winter Solstice - a pagan symbol of rebirth, among other things and traditionally a time of celebration and festivities (that rings a bell to me). There are many other astrological 'correlations' within this cult or religion and it makes for fascinating readinga and area of research, specially when you see how connected the whole cult is with politics and political secret societies, where the real decisions are made.

So, not to loose the plot, the religion of Christianity is basically a religion of astrology and other occult practices from Rome and going back far beyond in time, where those who are on the top of the pyramid know it, and look to these as a source of knowledge and power, while the masses, the 'sheep' if you like, were fed a symbolic mumbo jumbo, to mind control them. The witch hunts where so many women and men were tortured and burnt, were nothing but this priesthoods attempts to control the same knowledge they lived by and take it out of the public domain.

Why did I go into so much detail about this popular sun cult in a salsa discussion? Just to demonstrate when a set of popularized/sanitized occult belief systems that is more than 2000 years old is capable of hoodwinking, millions of people, including even scientists and intellectuals on the planet for centuries, playing a great role in wars and mass murder, up to now, the age of the computers and space travel, then it is relatively easy for people to be 'misdirected' in something like a 'trendy' hobby such as modern salsa dancing, yoga, tai chi and anything else which is imported, where it is difficult to identify valid sources of references. It is a piece of cake! Shake the modern salsa dancer's reality tree then you get a 'religious' backlash.

Unless you take a somewhat scholarly approach.

That is what we are trying to say here on one level - Terence, Salsera Alemana, EL Che, DJ Yuca and Toca Timba.

People insist on seeing this within a limited paradign of " my 'style' is better than yours", because they want to and it facilitates a meaningless argument, which will take them from the ultimate truth that is being attempted to get across to them.

What and where is this "reference point" in salsa

So again, if you see people dancing salsa, but you do not see the black and the street influences as a major element in that dancing, then you are seeing a over sanitized 'sellable' version make for public consumption. That is the bottom line!

It is unfortunate that it is not usually possible to sanitize and/or standardize a rich art form without messing with its core., and again, change the core too much, then you end up with something else.

 

[vit]

Hm, I'm still missing the "reference point". Even if I take that you are suggesting Son as reference point (although I can't find a year or location), it is in contradiction with your writing about Christian religion, where reference point is 2011 years old. So why salsa reference point is so young ?

 

[terence]

BTW, does anyone know when, and from where, did the concept of "pretzels" emerge in salsa?


We have had a discussion here about spins, and came to the conclusion they come from ballet.


But what about the over complicated stuff?

E.C. Swing...

Over comp... again, ballroom. It started(60s ) to stray even farther from the roots of the genre .

There were simplified forms of spins in the late 50s, and then ,an ice skating figure appeared in Intern style latin.. the " Sit " spin.

 

[DJ Ara]

Hm, I'm still missing the "reference point". Even if I take that you are suggesting Son as reference point (although I can't find a year or location), it is in contradiction with your writing about Christian religion, where reference point is 2011 years old. So why salsa reference point is so young ?

I think I get you now. The established core of the salsa dancing as far as Cali is concerned is the Cuban Guaracha. Of course, the Guaracha itself has as its base the Son. I am no salsa historian, but the base of Afro Cuban music (salsa) are the Rumba (religious at its core) and the Son, which evolved eventually into what we know as salsa. The origins of the Son are said to go back to 1893, but I have seen other dates too. However, it is quite possible where the real roots of salsa started.

I hope that this partially answered your question.

 

[vit]

Now you wrote similar like me, just that you named some dances during timeline, and ommited some dances (original African and dances in States for instance) that also played great role

 

[terence]

You have Eurpean and other elements. Actually, if Terence is reading this I would appreciate his view on the proportion of the indigenous influence, if any on the actual dancing, as to me, at least in its original form it looks like the African element is the dominant factor, followed by what was fused from Europe.

If we agree on that, then lets take it decades ahead when what we know as mambe/salsa were developed.


On this modern phase the elements of the barrio and the street elements, where salsa had made its modern home were injected into the music and the dance (Terence may want to interject to correct/elaborate).

Sad to say, altho its a double edged sword, the BR world had 2 diametrically opposed effects. On the one hand, it brought the mambo to the general public awareness ,thru the medium of TV; the other side of that coin, as many have said, they somewhat "polluted " the genre with an influx of ballroom variations .

Its not so much the variety, I believe, is HOW it was defined . It also,( like most new to market products ) was packaged and sold ,to be the authentic representation of the Cuban original .

And to be clear, from a pragmatic position, it probably would not have been as successful, if it was taught, danced, and "sold" in its then ,indigenous form.

ALL dance evolves, I think we all agree on that. Its the direction that many have questioned. We will never totally agree on content, and thats true in many other dance forms.

The Euopean influences , are pretty much all those that were utilised from the American dances .

The english really dont have one single dance ( Q/step is as close as one can get ) that has not been re vamped ,to suit/fit, the european mind set, from a decorum perspective .

I believe the real change in approach to dance, was the introduction to the UK, of what we now call Jive .Add to this, the advent of additions to the existing forms of dance ( Rumba, was as close to Danzon as one can get, and yet, was abandoned for a newer format.. Bolero style on "2" ). The englsih really showed their colors ,when they named it " English Rumba " !! .

Again, the NYC Palladium ( there were others ) is always used as a yardstick for everything that Mambo was all about . Its actually quite dis respectful to all the dancers on the Left coast, who were as innovative as any .They just didnt get the TV/ press coverage ,unless it was some movie type seen dancing .( we did get some famous names come in for lessons.. heaven knows why,I never saw them in ANY clubs !!.. did see others out and about ) .

AS to contributions from any indigenous dancers, PRs and or Cubanos,Absolutely ! . ANYONE that denies the influences, on HOW we all wanted to dance and emulate is delusional .

Finally , I think that both ends of the dance spectrum.. B.R and Indigenous, have drawn from each other, and the "line " has become somewhat blurred.

 

[vit]

...

+1

 

[DJ Ara]

PART 1

In NY dance floors are crowded, so it's essential to control your dance space. It would probably be quite similar in LA. To say people don't control their dance space - well, that's across all demographics, and most people who have at least a year dance experience do control their dance space.

So, who are those mysterious dancers who have givem Salsera Alemana, my wife and countless others all those bruises?

See, if you ask every single dancer out there if they dance to music, feel it and control their space, the majority will say, 'yes'!

Again, ask everybody who drives a car, if they are good drivers, the overall majority will say 'yes'!

In my personal experience, it's the Cuban style dancers that seem to not control their dance space, and the Latinos at latin parties are the worst! But where I live the Cuban style dancers aren't as hard core as the linear dancers, so they don't have the same interest in reaching a high level of proficiency in the dance (read - in my scene - it may be different elsewhere).

Perhaps in your scene, the Cuban style dancers are happy to enjoy the dancing and the music without reaching high technical levels, that can be irrelevant to enjoyment and sabor, if one is not educated musically?

At latin parties the majority of the patrons dance all over the place. You ask them and they'll swear dancing is "in their blood" and the rest of us dance "ballroom". I've been stepped on and have had friends stepped on myriad times at these latin parties.

Not all Latinos are salseros, just like not all non-Latinos are rockeros! As I mentioned before, you can live here in Cali for years and frequent salsa clubs and you won't get people bumping into you in any way as frequently as you get in the international. Look, I have been bruised, my wife has been bruised on a few occasions, I have seen broken noses, women in pain from injuries mainly to their feet, and on one occasion I saw a bruised face.

You just don't get that here and it seems Puerto Rico is no different, and from what El Che has said, Cubans also dance within their space.

My point? You assert DJ Ara that in the International Salsa Scene floorcraft isn't practiced and is ignored. If I may speak frankly, that's just ********.

Tell it to the bruised people! So, you are calling me and Salsera Aleman, liars? Look, you may have a couple of clubs in your locality that are frequented by better 'educated' dancers. However, studio dancers are famous for their dance floor antiques, even in Brasil.

Also - you keep talking about "core" elements. Are you serious??? You probably can't even explain Cuban Motion, yet you speak with so much authority on what "core" elements are and how they're lacking in the "International Salsa Scene". Again you DO NOT know that much about the dance to make that kind of judgement. If you DO KNOW - prove it. Explain exactly how the dancing in the "International Scene" is lacking it's core fundamental elements.

For the most part it lacks the Afro element - and shaking one's butt in an artificial manner doesn't do it!

It also lacks the street element. It is just too ballroomy: choreographed and sanitized. I don't know how else to put it.

Also, read my post to Vit (the one before the last).

"But in Cali they step like this!", "They have sabor goddamit!!!", "They don't spin senselessly!!!"

You still insist in seeing this as 'my style' vs 'your style', after I and others have repeatedly told you that it is NOT about style. It is about dancing TO the music, while understanding it in ANY STYLE!

- again you really don't have a clue, spinning developed over many years and certainly requires skill,

Yes, I heard that scientists from NASA were instrumental in the development of spinning......

posture, great balance, in salsa it's much more "grounded" in keeping with the roots,

Look, you are not getting this. You can spin, you can turn, you can even by some miracle learn proper salsa steps and emphasis it in your dancing, but if you don't do it in a musical context, then it becomes, 'senseless' spinning and turning, as opposed to 'sensible' spinning and turning1

The SAME goes for stepping, and it doesn't matter if it is Cali, Cuba, P.R. or the people's favorite in this thread, the Cumbia steps. If you don't do it in a musical context, then it becomes SENSELESS Stepping. NO different!

Why do I mention, senseless spinning and turning, much more than I do senseless stepping (eventhough I have referred to out of context stepping in this very thread)? Because most people in the international scene can't even pull off the senseless stepping, as they are not even getting correct foundational training in that aspect as far as the majority of them are concerned.

and when I look around me no matter where I'm dancing (Sydney, NY) I see smooth, grounded dancing with of course turns and spins, very much like was danced in the Palladium era.

All I can say to that is that I disagree!

And yet again I heard some late Palladium dancers turning in their graves!

Palladium "mambo" was so far removed from Cuban salsa it's not funny, but kept the foundations of the groundedness, motion and stepping like it does nowadays.

I believe that El Che has more than adequately answered your statement above.

You go to workshops and the "salsa stars" as you love calling them generally do remind people to step through everything and transfer weight, even whilst doing some moves involving spins.

Techniques, techniques, techniques - important, but only part of the story!

Next time you go to their workshops remind them to teach all of this intricate motion in a MUSICAL context - that on a basic level means for people not to spin and turn from beginning to an end of the song. It is a simple concept, but it seems to escape the majority of the dancers out there!

 

[DJ Ara]

PART 2

Cuban salsa contains pretzels, and many Cuban dancers (in Cuba) use them a LOT. Some may call that excessive, it's not my cup of tea, but go ahead and tell the Cubans they're doing too many "unnecessary pretzels!" - seriously you're so righteous you may as well, you are the authority with God-like ability to judge "sabor" and "lack of fundamental core elements".

I have met Cubans and Caleños with more sabor while sitting down and listening to music, then many dancers out there who have failed to actually study, research expand on what they are being taught in their regular classes.

By the way, I do not judge Sabor, but I recognize the lack of it!

Your credibility seriously has eroded beyond redemption.

I have had my credibility as a salsa professional and a Salsero, more than 16 years before you ever took your first 'salsa' class........food for thought.

You've made so many assertions

You keep trying in vain to isolate the assertions as mine only, but people like Terence (who has been in the business before you were born); El Che, who has researced the source (Cuba); Salsera Alemana who had done the same (Puerto Rico) and others are making the same point, albeit in slightly different ways........food for thought.

and now I'm absolutely certain you don't immerse yourself in the "International Salsa Scene" because frankly you know nothing about it,

My immersion in the international scene (DJ-ing; salsa club promotion (London - residencies in top salsa clubs - and Rio de Janeiro); magazine publishing; lasted 19 years and I live and am involved in the salsa business here in the world salsa capital. So, I have been there and done that, paid my dues, and guess what, there is a good chance that I will be back in the international scene (you will be glad to know :mrgreen, that is in Brasil, in the not too distant future.

So, what is your 'experience' of the international scene?

and to use an Australianism you "talk out your arse".

That is more like an attitude that would lose you credibility, if you had any to start with.......

In my humble opinion, your attitude and constant misreading of what you are being told by experts, eg. constantly attemtping to turn this discussion into 'style vs style' discussion, when in reality it is not, and failure to grasp simple and logical advice, eg. looking at core countries for salsa related references, shows that you are a product of everything that is wrong with international salsa scene.

My advice to you is the usual, 'think outside of the box'. Don't just stay within your own salsa paradigms and turn it into a cult that you attempt to protect at all costs.

See the constructive criticisms as an attempt to help you better yourself, a finger pointing to the right direction.

I have mentioned this before, there ARE a lot of great professionals in the international scene. Some of them are members of this forum. A few have posted in this very thread.

However, you really have to stretch your imagination to in order to believe that the good guys are in the majority. The evidence that they are not, all over the scene!

Jag, investigate the core, no matter what discipline you undertake, as that is where you will find your answers. Even if you think your own evolved version of an imported discipline is genuine, then check the core for evidence, because that is the only way your are going to validate (or not) your belief.

I have given examples here of other imported disciplines, Far Eastern martial arts, which I know a thing or two about. Karate - origin the Island of Okinawa, now part of Japan. I you look for schools in some parts of the Western Hemsiphere, then you have a 90% chance of landing in a mediocre to average one!

Kung fu (Gung fu) - Origin China - inherently more complex and even isoteric than karate. You have a less than a 1 in a hundred chance of landing in a genuine school. As regards the more complex and deeper styles, maybe 2 or 3 in a thousand chance! Tai chi chuan, that is actually a lethal kung fu style, which is nowaday erroneously seen a merely an health exercise methdology (because of guess what?), is the same as the latter example.

All are imported disciplines with limited local sources of references. Go to a martial arts forum and tell most of the posters there that they are being taken for a ride, then you will get more or less the same reaction we are getting here from you guys, "hey, but my kicking technique is great"; "my teacher can break bricks with his bear hands"; "in our schools we have very smooth movements when performing our forms"; "we do a lot of conditioning", etc. etc. Read, meaningless tripe, when the proof in the pudding is on one level, the APPLICATION of techniques in a real situation (in salsa this would be dancing and correct interpretation of the music, at least on a basic level), and on another level, it is minimizing of technique - LESS IS MORE!

I don't know how else to explain these relatively simple critcisims and recommendations that I and OTHERS are making in this thread. Suffice to say, if you are a real professional in any field, then sooner or later you need to take a scholarly approach to better yourself!