Don't focus just about Mambo or Salsa on2 because that's just 20% of what the salsa word means for real

and a short comment on question 4

KEVIN:
And finally, although the dancers are the inspiration, they can also be the wet towel. I remember asking Aisar about gears and why he didn't play bomba and he seemed to be saying that they were going for a different type of dancer that liked a smoother feel and didn't want to break apart and dance in the styles that corresponded to all the great gears. It would be good to make a study of live video of the Cofiño/Aisar phase of Revé (or even the current band) and see what if anything the dancers do differently when the rhythm section goes into its gear routine. That video you made from behind the stage as Plaza Roja, right behind Andy - that shows the Revé scheme perfectly - over and over - just watch that and you'll see what I mean about how they have this one long, elaborate thing that they do on most songs.
 
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So reason why a lot of timba sounds like random stuff thrown together, is because it is a random stuff thrown together. Emulating DJs who play 30s from one track, then switch to next.
Probably great music can never be built this way, but it could make fun experience.
It's a matter of taste, but also something else. I was looking into computer generated music recently and came to similar ideas.
 
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I have mailed Kevin some of the questions, we'll see if he answers.

What I xcan say is that bomba is an adaptation of Puerto Rican bomba sica. As for the other gears, I don't know. One of the more recent rhythms "invented" by Changuito, for Pupy y los que son son, was merensongo - a mix of songo and merengue. Paulo FG has one called songo con efectos, so it's based on songo...I don't know if some of the ideas came from batá or if they came from funk or classical muisc. So that is a non-helpful answer from me. But maybe Kevin will ahvesomething to say. I ahve alla of his books, but don't recall that there is an answer to exactly this questions.

A for the bands - chicken and egg for me. But I know Formell always said that he watched the dancers, both to see what they were doing as well as how they were reacting to his arrangements. What the musicians expect is for the people to dance. They don't expect necessarily specific steps or movements when they try something new, but if the people don't dance, they know they need to change something. Musicians always talk about La Tropical being the thermometer of what the people think of a new song.

Where the despelote and tembleque came from, I don't know - one reason I'd like to look into some sort of history of Cuban popular dance including video. But it seems to not be so different form how people move throughout the Caribbean. I was looking at some Haitian kompa videos and there is a lot of hip movement there as well. It seems like not a huge stretch to go from taking steps to standing still and just moving the hips, when you feel like turn patterns don't "feel right"

Thanks to you and Kevin for such extensive and insightful answers about the characteristics of timba gears! I hope to one day collect this info in another thread in one place and also provide more videos of musicians and dancers, as well as recommending to read Kevin's fantastic books. The 90s feel long gone but when dancing Salsa/Casino in Berlin today, timba is still the genre of choice for most resident DJs.
 
Thanks to you and Kevin for such extensive and insightful answers about the characteristics of timba gears! I hope to one day collect this info in another thread in one place and also provide more videos of musicians and dancers, as well as recommending to read Kevin's fantastic books. The 90s feel long gone but when dancing Salsa/Casino in Berlin today, timba is still the genre of choice for most resident DJs.
I would love to find good dance footage, but it is hard to find of Cuban social dancing in Cuba. In some of the concert video we have from the 90s you can see a little dancing, but Cubans at concerts more often than not are watching the band and singing and dancing solo, so lots of despelote and little casino.

If you can deal with the poor audio quality and the music of Charanga Habanera, you can see how maybe around 3.30 the people are dancing despelote - mainly you can tell by the way their heads are bobbing around. At the end after they close the curtains you see a lot more of the audience and how they are all crowded around the stage and just dancing solo. So finding video of the development of dancing to timba back in the day is going to be hard, if even possible. It's also worth watching the singers dance IMO, not that they're doing fancy steps but the way the switch "moods" between the cuerpo and the montuno and the gears.

 
OK, Kevin wrote back about questions 1 and 4 but not a concise "here is the answer" and also pretty long so I'll add his comments probably in 2 posts.

KEVIN:
I've been watching all these hip hop documentaries - and it's amazing how specifically people like Grandmaster Flash spell out in words what I think the Cubans were doing with gears in a much less calculated way. To paraphrase, Flash says that as he spun whole tracks he noticed that people danced differently (and more enthusiastically) on the breaks (the equivalent of gears in funk and rock), and then he spent long hours figuring out how to use 2 turntables to bring those breaks in whenever he wanted. His goal was to be able to kind of control the dancers like the leader of a rueda. Then he tells this funny story about how he got his whole schtick together and unveiled it at a big dance party and everyone stopped dancing and just listened in amazement, so he was totally bummed out because he was trying to make them dance, but of course, it caught on and worked as planned.

With the Cubans, it's less articulated, but obviously "Manos p'arriba!!" means presión or pedal - the singer describes the change in the dancing and the band changes with the crowd. The best anecdote on this was from Tomasito. On Con la conciencia, the 1997 band had pedal/presión and bomba, but no middle gear - no "masacote" - so they were working one out, which Tomasito calls "songo con efectos" and which they used in amazing ways all through the live performances of 1998 - that was probably the key year for PFG and gears. So his story was that they tried it out (like other stuff they tried out periodically) at El Palacio or wherever, and the dancers went wild and that was when they knew they had a keeper, so Paulito gave it a hand signal and brought it in in almost every possible order with other gears. And built into this particular masacote was all this room for Yoel and Tomasito to improvise off of each other so it was just incredibly great and then if PFG really wanted to go nuts, he could go from that to bomba!

Every Cuban band has a different approach to gears (except of course that some just use somebody else's). Irakere's Bacalao con pan (1974) had definite rock concert style breakdowns but I don't think it was really gears in the sense of interacting with the dancers. NG had the first bomba, and that actually had some PR bomba stuff in it, but a much earlier source of what came to be timba bomba started in the Carter Administration's "thaw" when Jaco Pastorius played in Cuba with Weather Report (probably 1979 or so). He was using what we now think of as bomba slides in a soloistic way, but the Cubans used them as part of the whole dance/gear system and somewhere along the line the idea of playing them with that ferocity of the Iyá when the dancer is going into paroxysms of abandonment - that's really what bomba is in terms of timba - it's purpose in life is to make the girl tembleque herself to the point of orgasm or if you prefer a different analogy, to have a santería-like religious transcendent experience like they always do at those batá ceremonies where the dancer sort of loses control and gets "mounted by the santo", or whatever it is for each person - for me as a listener I just sit and lose my mind with ecstasy - but it's that ultimate emotional release and the bass slides are the driving force, but strangely, a lot of Cuban bassists either don't get this, or don't like it, or can't do it, but oh when they do! (Alain, Paceiro, Arango, that guy Gastón who plays with Chucho, Ernesto who was with CH and now is in the Bay ... who am I forgetting?)
Then of course you have to take into account how the band uses the gears.

  • In CH and all their disciples like Maikel Blanco, the gears are written into the arrangement and done the same way at the same place.
  • In Revé, Elito has one signal and that starts this long sequence of gears that works on most songs, with the same parts.
  • In the classic late 90s Bamboleo, Lazarito gave a fist to start the presión and then in-between the phrases, the "captain" of the rhythm section (first it was bassist Rubio, then conguero Duniesky) shows a certain number of fingers which can make the breaks different each time - very cool - then it goes to bomba at a pre-determined time and then back to marcha, unless Lázaro does the fist pump again, which I call a "double dip", so you get presión-bomba-presión-bomba-marcha.
  • Now we get to the really great ones - Paulito and Issac. Paulito 98 had hand signals for presión, masacote, marcha, marcha de mambo, muela and bomba and at his peak, he used them in only semi-predictable ways - in the others, each gear has to go to the next expected gear, but PFG had the capacity (which he didn't always use) to do unexpected things. PFG also had special pedal efectos for each song. So unlike Revé, where it's the same fantastic Uyuyui sequence on every song, Paulito had different ones for different songs, just like he had different piano and conga parts for specific songs. This was the great promise of late 90s timba: improvising form and having non-generic tumbaos in every instrument. But they dropped the ball.
  • Issac was much looser but had all sorts of crazy gears that were different for each of the 3 great gear bands: Melón/Alain (97), los Yoeles (stolen from PFG) in 99 and the very short-lived band with Frank Rubio, Bombón, Pachá and Cucurucho. That band (the one from the Marina Hemingway live concerts on your youtube channel) had more stuff going that anyone ever. I think I counted nine different ways they had of getting into bomba. It was crazy. Then Issac made a rare mistake. He brought in Oscarito Valdés as musical director and all 4 of the guys I mentioned left or got fired and Oscarito (who had no affinity for gears - he was a bombastic jazz drummer) brought in his jazz rhythm section. The system wasn't passed down! I was physically present at Casa de la Música Miramar when Los Yoeles and Majá were leaving Issac for foreign countries, but doing so on friendly terms, so they had a gig with two pianists, two drummers, etc. and the old guys were showing the new guys the system, so nothing was lost, but the new guys (Bombón, Rubio) added on top of it and that's how that incredible band came to play those 2 incredible Hemingway concerts.
But in any case, the timba guys didn't have a Grandmaster Flash to articulate the theory behind all this - it was just the typical cuban thing were they just do what they do and everyone sort of subconscious understands how to do it without bothering to think about it, and so they also didn't think about how cool it could be to follow the timba innovations to their logical creative extensions, so timba sort of became a legacy genre, everything reduced to formulas. So now we have to wait for the next "named genre" to arise, as it always does. Of course, every time I say this, somebody sends me a YouTube of some new band and I start to think we might be about to explode again. Maybe they already are! I mean, by now, all the giants of the 90s are middle aged. Who knows what might come bubbling up out of la ENA!

As for merensongo, we should include Changuito and El Yulo because they were the first to come up with special parts for specific songs. Later these started getting reused on multiple songs, especially merensongo and that other one where the congas play two high tones followed by two low tones. When El Yup lo went to jail, the new guy stopped making up new parts.
Good except it was Kool here that noticed the kids getting down to the break beat, and I think it was him that coined the phrase b boy (break boy). And he pioneered the continuous break, Flash furthered it with the cross fade and Theodore invented the scratch and used the needle drop continuous break method.
Could be a deep rootrdpan African (and africanized) thing (e.g. the repetitive loop of changüi and am Montuno or rumba (and Santeria, voodoo, maricumba from Brazil etc.
 
Good except it was Kool here that noticed the kids getting down to the break beat, and I think it was him that coined the phrase b boy (break boy). And he pioneered the continuous break, Flash furthered it with the cross fade and Theodore invented the scratch and used the needle drop continuous break method.

Well you're still not quite right. Yes Kool Herc was the first to DJ break beats using double copies to extend the breaks but Flash was the first to work out a method of doing it on time. The cross fade - what do you mean by that? Whether or not Herc was using a fader before Flash came on the scene I don't know (possibly not) but Flash did a lot more than possibly introduce the fader. He invented what he called the 'quick mix theory' wherein by marking up his discs plus using a mixer and headphones he became the first person ever to mix breaks on time. Yes Grand Wizard Theodore introduced scratching. I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'needle drop continuous break method' but if you're referring to mixing double copies on time - as I've just stated that was Flash not Theodore.
 
There's a big hole in your theory. British and US rock music was also prohibited in Cuba post revolution but it still became the most popular music in Cuba in the 60s and 70s, on import and with local bands doing their own versions of rock music.

Also Cuba was still communist in the 1990s yet from 1990 onwards timba thrived in Cuba.
where are the popular rock bands from Cuba?
 
Well you're still not quite right. Yes Kool Herc was the first to DJ break beats using double copies to extend the breaks but Flash was the first to work out a method of doing it on time. The cross fade - what do you mean by that? Whether or not Herc was using a fader before Flash came on the scene I don't know (possibly not) but Flash did a lot more than possibly introduce the fader. He invented what he called the 'quick mix theory' wherein by marking up his discs plus using a mixer and headphones he became the first person ever to mix breaks on time. Yes Grand Wizard Theodore introduced scratching. I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'needle drop continuous break method' but if you're referring to mixing double copies on time - as I've just stated that was Flash not Theodore.
I'm refering to repeating the Loop of 1 record by repeatedtedy dropping it back into the groove. I think its called drop on the dime or something. Cant remember. You watch Q-tip do it on YouTube. No. Herc used 2 record players set up separately. I wasnt sating that Flashy didn't so more bit I rwad rhe comment as "Flash noticed how the kids would dance to the brwak" as if it was his idea which it wasn't. Herc first.
 
where are the popular rock bands from Cuba?

They've sunk into obscurity. (Even at the time I believe the more popular music in Cuba was imported UK and US rock.)

Where is any popular music from 1960s and 1970s Cuba? Apart from early Van Van, Irakere and Son 14 (who didn't even start until 1978) music made in Cuba from the 1960s and 1970s has not had any longevity.

To be fair Cuban music from the 1950s is some of the best ever in the history of the world so they've done pretty well really.
 
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I'm refering to repeating the Loop of 1 record by repeatedtedy dropping it back into the groove. I think its called drop on the dime or something. Cant remember. You watch Q-tip do it on YouTube. No. Herc used 2 record players set up separately. I wasnt sating that Flashy didn't so more bit I rwad rhe comment as "Flash noticed how the kids would dance to the brwak" as if it was his idea which it wasn't. Herc first.

True Herc was the first to try to DJ breaks - and Flash was first to do it in a way that was musically correct. In terms of looping vinyl correctly that's Flash not Theodore, although as I said earlier Theodore invented scratching, which is a phenomenal feat by anybody's standards. Maybe invent isn't the right word - he realised that what the DJ does in the headphones whilst mixing would sound pretty good if the audience could hear it. (NB That came after Flash invented the quick mix theory.)
 
Beatles as greatest poprock band ever

I don't know much about rock music so maybe they were the greatest rock band ever - but the greatest pop band ever? No way. Most of the greatest pop music ever had already been made by the time the Beatles started recording and they could never compete with the likes of the Drifters.
 
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