World's Best Leads E-mail From Edie

[TheBear_CanDanceToo]

"do not move 2 the music, let the music move u."

This is exactly the sort of thing I mean. Sounds great doesn't it, but what does it actually mean in practical terms? How do you actually DO that? And how do you explain to someone else how they can DO it too.

I have not been to the class, but knowing Mario I think what he probably does is try to provide you with some tools/skills to develop your own sense of musicality.

This sounds like more the kind of thing i'm looking for; something you can actually use! Go to his classes and report back at once!

 

[tj]

Thanks Sweavo - in interesting insight. But we're still no closer to teaching it?
Whilst we accept musicality isn't about specifics, I'm beginning to think we must also accept that can't actually teach it.
Actually, maybe not entirely true....

Since a lot of salsa moves over the years have been 'borrowed' from other styles, perhaps one answer is to see how other styles teach musicality.

How do YOU define musicality?

Perhaps this is why his motto is, "do not move 2 the music, let the music move u."

Sounds like a good definition to me!

I think it's not too hard to find examples of musicality when you look across dance clips in all styles. And I think it's something better defined visually, rather than try to put it into words - which is probably why its hard for the majority of the instructors out there to teach it to the rest of us.

 

[chr]

I dunno, this topic has been beaten to death on these boards, but do you really think musicality is something that can be taught? Encouraged maybe, but taught - since each person's musicality is something that arises from the interplay between his unique personality, the person he is dancing with, the music, and the moment - I'd say not.

Actually, I think teaching connection is similar. It's hard to explain, but there are ways to make you understand certain elements of it.

Musicality starts wit the basics. If you are a beginner, it seems to take a lot of musicality to distinguish between 1 and 5. Later, it seems mechanic, still if you would have to program a computer to do it, you would recognize that it is a very complex task.

I don't think that musicality is pure magic. There is a certain intuitive component to it, but that's also true for the kinetic part of dancing: a rare minority of the people is natural, but the rest should not give up either: one can break down a lot of things and improve. There is a huge literature on music theory, but one does not need to go so far just for the sake of dancing.

When I bought an electric piano for my wife, I spent a week to learn a simple two minute invention by Bach. This was the first time I played piano and I was very proud. My wife's music teacher was very kind and gave me a private lesson for free. He did not say much about placing the fingers or anything on that very low technical level, he just told me how to add artistic interpretation to the music and after that half an hour the total quality of my playing improved by magnitudes (it was still crap, but did not sound like a midi file).

OTOH, I agree we you that I don't believe that anyone can become "musical" by just taking some classes. But that same is true for most other components of dancing as well: no one will look/feel good just by taking classes either. Practice is the key, but a good teacher can tell what and how to practice.

 

[SnowDancer]

I wonder if someone could come up with a series of classes. The first workshop I took was quite good, but I'd like to go farther with the concepts. Taking a second workshop didn't help, because it was pretty much the same.

It would be cool if there were, say, a once/month ongoing series on musicality. I'll suggest that to my instructor, but I don't know if there are enough people who would be interested.

 

[SnowDancer]

If T'ai Chi can be taught, then musicality can be taught.

Wax/on .... Wax/off/off .... Wax/on .... Wax/off/off

"Little grasshopper, you are trying to follow the clave. Instead, you must become the clave."

 

[UnlikelySalsero]

Thanks Sweavo - in interesting insight. But we're still no closer to teaching it?
Whilst we accept musicality isn't about specifics, I'm beginning to think we must also accept that can't actually teach it.
Actually, maybe not entirely true....
Maybe I could teach it, givven one-to-one over several hours/weeks/months in a kind of jedi master student relationship, but in a hour in a group class? Unlikely...
Then again, following this line of thinking, I've never actually taught anyone how to dance salsa in an hour. More so over several hours/weeks/months, so maybe there's something there for me after all.

Teaching musicality is tougher than teaching patterns, partly because we all start with a different set of ears AND dance skills. We all know teaching patterns/moves doesn't make someone a dancer, but it does give them some tools and a starting point. Just because I get reasonable at 22 different patterns, doesn't mean I dance well or I make any connection with my partner.

The music is similar, there are a set of learnable concepts. Knowing the concepts won't overnight make you a dramatically better dancer. Proof is most musicians don't dance, and fewer actually dance well, because knowing the music is only part of the equation, and we struggle with using the body as an instrument to compliment the music.

Most people have to invest some time in the music to get it as well. Sixteen hours of pattern classes don't make the dancer, and a few hours of music theory won't give most people enough grounding in the music to be great. But you have to start someplace, and then grow it over time.

In hip-hop or jazz classes most instructors point out how moves "fit" with the music. While I may select different movements for the same sound, when they break it down you hear them say "Your head is following that piano line here" and "this follows the bass line" or "that hit is with the snare drum and those 3 follow the bass drum." The best teachers are also talking like musicians, partly because many think of themselves as part of the band, providing the visual components of the music.

Does that make someone a great hip-hop dancer just because they can put it all together in a class. NO! But the stronger ones start with the music and work all their movements around the sounds, even if I would select something completely different to express the music. Because they stress the musical concepts in the first few classes, you start looking for ways to compliment the music with your movements.

It's a vast subject, and writing about it is tougher because it's best taught with visual and sound examples, backed up with words.

As always, there will be some who don't care, a set who wait and see what others do and a subset who pursue it, looking to grow their dancing in that dimension.

It's all good, and while some argue it can't be taught, there are some who have decided to figure out how to teach it, even if the current methods don't work for everybody.

 

[salcero2005]

Thanks Sweavo - in interesting insight. But we're still no closer to teaching it?
Whilst we accept musicality isn't about specifics, I'm beginning to think we must also accept that can't actually teach it.
Actually, maybe not entirely true....
Maybe I could teach it, givven one-to-one over several hours/weeks/months in a kind of jedi master student relationship, but in a hour in a group class? Unlikely...
Then again, following this line of thinking, I've never actually taught anyone how to dance salsa in an hour. More so over several hours/weeks/months, so maybe there's something there for me after all.

Teaching musicality is tougher than teaching patterns, partly because we all start with a different set of ears AND dance skills. We all know teaching patterns/moves doesn't make someone a dancer, but it does give them some tools and a starting point. Just because I get reasonable at 22 different patterns, doesn't mean I dance well or I make any connection with my partner.

The music is similar, there are a set of learnable concepts. Knowing the concepts won't overnight make you a dramatically better dancer. Proof is most musicians don't dance, and fewer actually dance well, because knowing the music is only part of the equation, and we struggle with using the body as an instrument to compliment the music.

Most people have to invest some time in the music to get it as well. Sixteen hours of pattern classes don't make the dancer, and a few hours of music theory won't give most people enough grounding in the music to be great. But you have to start someplace, and then grow it over time.

In hip-hop or jazz classes most instructors point out how moves "fit" with the music. While I may select different movements for the same sound, when they break it down you hear them say "Your head is following that piano line here" and "this follows the bass line" or "that hit is with the snare drum and those 3 follow the bass drum." The best teachers are also talking like musicians, partly because many think of themselves as part of the band, providing the visual components of the music.

Does that make someone a great hip-hop dancer just because they can put it all together in a class. NO! But the stronger ones start with the music and work all their movements around the sounds, even if I would select something completely different to express the music. Because they stress the musical concepts in the first few classes, you start looking for ways to compliment the music with your movements.

It's a vast subject, and writing about it is tougher because it's best taught with visual and sound examples, backed up with words.

As always, there will be some who don't care, a set who wait and see what others do and a subset who pursue it, looking to grow their dancing in that dimension.

It's all good, and while some argue it can't be taught, there are some who have decided to figure out how to teach it, even if the current methods don't work for everybody.

Good post ... I was never one for defining myself out of a solution.

BTW, looks like Al and a marketing machine are throwing a New Years weekend event in Palm Springs as well this year. We'll see if it actually happens, but you folks might have some competition, if it does.

 

[UnlikelySalsero]

<snip>I think it's not too hard to find examples of musicality when you look across dance clips in all styles. And I think it's something better defined visually, rather than try to put it into words - which is probably why its hard for the majority of the instructors out there to teach it to the rest of us.

Most people don't take classes once they are intermediate social dancers. So most instructors focus on the beginners and the ones who think they are intermediate but are really still beginners. Most musicality principles aren't taught until later.

I'll bet 80% of the people on this board more than six months haven't purchased an instructional DVD in the last six months. We already have a set of things we are working on, so more material I don't practice isn't going to help me most of the time.

I also suspect most of us do NOT take the "free" club class before the social dancing. I rarely do anymore so maybe that's just me.

All this to say, the majority of the instructors don't focus on the music because if you can't do basic and have a reasonable pattern vocabulary, knowing how a certain movement would perfectly compliment the music isn't helpful. The exception to that is the timing/song structure.

If you know how the music works from a timing perspective, and then know some song structure fundimentals, it's a huge win early in the dance game.

 

[UnlikelySalsero]

<snip>
Good post ... I was never one for defining myself out of a solution.

BTW, looks like Al and a marketing machine are throwing a New Years weekend event in Palm Springs as well this year. We'll see if it actually happens, but you folks might have some competition, if it does.

Competition is healthy.

Last year Edies NYE event was a great success, and the summer event also went well. Those past successes will bring back a large set of people, who know the quality of her events and the instructors involved. The people running Edie's event are long time dance instructors, not marketing machines primarily looking for ROI.

The market is large enough for more than one event to be successful, and if people look at past track records, Edie's event will do fine. It won't surprise me if others do well also.

 

[tj]

Most people don't take classes once they are intermediate social dancers. So most instructors focus on the beginners and the ones who think they are intermediate but are really still beginners. Most musicality principles aren't taught until later.

If they're taught at all. I would think that it should be on a syllabus for upper level classes. Maybe it just depends on the city/studio/instructors.

I'll bet 80% of the people on this board more than six months haven't purchased an instructional DVD in the last six months. We already have a set of things we are working on, so more material I don't practice isn't going to help me most of the time.

Lol, whoops, I forgot this thread was about instructional DVDs!

Well, the thing is, does anyone learn anything significant from just watching it on a DVD or YouTube? I'd imagine even those that do, need to go out and actually practice it.

I also suspect most of us do NOT take the "free" club class before the social dancing. I rarely do anymore so maybe that's just me.

Yeah, that's true, too. But the majority of the free club classes are full of beginners who can't even do a CBL properly. Or at least when I have watched them recently.

All this to say, the majority of the instructors don't focus on the music because if you can't do basic and have a reasonable pattern vocabulary, knowing how a certain movement would perfectly compliment the music isn't helpful. The exception to that is the timing/song structure.

If you know how the music works from a timing perspective, and then know some song structure fundimentals, it's a huge win early in the dance game.

Certainly. And this next comment isn't directed towards you or Edie or anyone in particular, but I get the feeling that it's not even on the mind of quite a few instructors. There are certainly dancers/instructors with musicality, but there are quite a few without.

 

[noobster]

Well, the thing is, does anyone learn anything significant from just watching it on a DVD or YouTube? I'd imagine even those that do, need to go out and actually practice it.

Well of course you need to practice anything to internalize it; but I have a salsa buddy who has been having lots of trouble with bachata. He has been doing salsa for 3+ years and is reasonably comfortable with it but he just could not get himself to be loose enough to dance bachata.

Of late, he's been watching a bunch of YouTube bachata vids, and last night he managed a quite passable bachata. I was shocked. Last week he couldn't do it for love or money.

I think watching people is actually quite instrumental in dance development. You learn what looks good, and you incorporate what you like and make it your own. Obviously live is best, but I guess YouTube is not a bad alternative.

 

[Offbeat]

I found Bachata quite easy to pick up watching others dance it. I doubt I would have been able to pick it up from DVD or Youtube. I can't pick up cha cha watching others and I don't think DVD/you tube will help either ! I think DVD/you tube might work for something like shines. Beyond that unless you have someone to practice it with it won't make much sense.

I know someone who carries about 100 patterns on his PDA to the club. I am sure if he has stored those many patterns, he must have practiced them with someone and using it to just remember them. Sweavo (hope I got the nick right) wrote a long post about packer and mapper somewhere. I can squarely put myself in the mapper category based on his description. I can't memorize patterns.

Well, the thing is, does anyone learn anything significant from just watching it on a DVD or YouTube? I'd imagine even those that do, need to go out and actually practice it.

Well of course you need to practice anything to internalize it; but I have a salsa buddy who has been having lots of trouble with bachata. He has been doing salsa for 3+ years and is reasonably comfortable with it but he just could not get himself to be loose enough to dance bachata.

Of late, he's been watching a bunch of YouTube bachata vids, and last night he managed a quite passable bachata. I was shocked. Last week he couldn't do it for love or money.

I think watching people is actually quite instrumental in dance development. You learn what looks good, and you incorporate what you like and make it your own. Obviously live is best, but I guess YouTube is not a bad alternative.

 

[UnlikelySalsero]

<snip>

I'll bet 80% of the people on this board more than six months haven't purchased an instructional DVD in the last six months. We already have a set of things we are working on, so more material I don't practice isn't going to help me most of the time.

Lol, whoops, I forgot this thread was about instructional DVDs!

Well, the thing is, does anyone learn anything significant from just watching it on a DVD or YouTube? I'd imagine even those that do, need to go out and actually practice it.

Actually, many people learn quite a bit from both. Part of is relates to your learning style. Visual learners often can see something a few times and pick it up quickly. YouTube is great for finding new moves, but it doesn't mean I'll do them well or lead them cleanly and comfortably for my partner.

DVDs are interesting because the instructors generally break things down and explain some of the "why" behind certain techniques. This can make a huge difference compared with many who learning moves by watching others only.

A quality lead may turn his hand over a certain way during a specific hammer lock, or while holding both hands applying more push/pull pressure with one hand to make a move work. On YouTube I see moves and on instructional DVDs I see moves and often learn what they are thinking or why they do things the way they do.

Both can be helpful, but I see them as complimentary.

The other issue is mindset: I don't invest $25 in a DVD expecting to find 37 new concepts. If I find one or two really good ideas/moves/concepts, that I can extend into my dancing, I feel good about the investment. If the DVD says something and I rethink the way I lead or provides a new perspective on a technique, then I feel I've won. It's the same in most classes for me. I don't expect an instructor to change my dance life, but if I walk away with a one or two interesting ideas, that is a win for me. Most of the time it's refining what I already know, and that still has value for me. Your mileage may vary.

In my case I have to watch clips many times to get real value, and I find going back to DVDs I viewed two years ago provides a different perspective. Things which were nearly impossible then are within 30 minutes today. The good DVDs require repeated viewing AND practice, or the material isn't really valuable. I don't believe a single viewing is enough UNLESS you are already a strong dancer, then you can pick up interesting things from all sorts of clips, but repeat viewings are still helpful.

Like all learning, there is value in reviewing materials from time to time. And I like DVDs for more advanced materials because I like hearing what they are thinking behind the moves.

Certainly. And this next comment isn't directed towards you or Edie or anyone in particular, but I get the feeling that it's not even on the mind of quite a few instructors. There are certainly dancers/instructors with musicality, but there are quite a few without.

Agreed. Since my perspective starts from the musical side, I used to be surprised by the lack of musicality of many instructors/dancers. I see that changing, as dancers mature they tend to focus more on the music. Most of us are a work in progress, so it's really a matter of desire, focus, effort and time available to practice. Obviously that will vary among individuals.

 

[SnowDancer]

Starting out, we used a few of the SalsaCrazy DVD's that were available through NetFlix, and they were a good supplement to the beginner classes we were taking. I'd like to buy one or two intermediate-level pattern DVDs, preferably NY-style, but don't know what to get. Prices are a little high for experimentation.

As for YouTube, I managed to pick up a couple simple Bachata moves, but I usually find it useless. The video quality is not very good, and I haven't figured out how to slow the video down. Plus, I never know if what I'm watching is something to emulate or avoid.

 

[giglet]

Returning to the topic of Bachata on2 or on1...
I have just returned from vacation in the Dominican Republic and i always thought i could dance bachata pretty well until this point.
All i have to say is "wow", was i blown away the past couple of weeks.
Not only were their Merengues in a world of their own but their Bachata was danced on any beat they felt like, and they still made it look good.

At one point i was watching some friends of ours we met who are locals, dancing freestyle bachata, and i was in awe at the ammount of improvisation they came up with. Certain moves i didn't think could even be done in bachata. This whole afro beat style to it, then fluidity and a sense of ingrained musicality i've never seen.

Now i had many dances in the local clubs and danced bachata on every timing you can possibly think of. It seemed to me they didn't care about which beat you had to start on, it just felt nice regardless.
They didn't do so many turns as i would have expected, but more partner holding and open holds.
They made me see it in a completely different light.
At first i really did feel like an amateur.

So i sit and have a chat with one of the guys and ask him how he learnt bachata. He tells me his mother taught him bachata since he was a little boy. And he's danced it ever since.
Not only this but every shop, cafe, disco, hairdressers... you name it, play bachata, merengue, salsa and reggaeton constantly. There is no such thing as a quiet street.

I don't think there were every any real rules, just dance how you feel. It really does work if you can move fluidly.

~Giglet~

 

[rjoe92057]

In hip-hop or jazz classes most instructors point out how moves "fit" with the music. While I may select different movements for the same sound, when they break it down you hear them say "Your head is following that piano line here" and "this follows the bass line" or "that hit is with the snare drum and those 3 follow the bass drum." The best teachers are also talking like musicians, partly because many think of themselves as part of the band, providing the visual components of the music.

This is what I am teaching myself now and I keep asking myself why Salsa instructors don't teach like this. One reason is many instructors probably can't because they themselves have not reached that level. Second reason, if an instructor can teach like that he most likely will not have students at the level ready for it:

Most people don't take classes once they are intermediate social dancers. So most instructors focus on the beginners and the ones who think they are intermediate but are really still beginners. Most musicality principles aren't taught until later.

One promising thing though is that we are actually having discussions about musicality. Perhaps the next generation of instructors will be more musically savy.

We should stop thinking, discussing and just dance like this

Returning to the topic of Bachata on2 or on1...
I have just returned from vacation in the Dominican Republic and i always thought i could dance bachata pretty well until this point.
All i have to say is "wow", was i blown away the past couple of weeks.
Not only were their Merengues in a world of their own but their Bachata was danced on any beat they felt like, and they still made it look good.

At one point i was watching some friends of ours we met who are locals, dancing freestyle bachata, and i was in awe at the ammount of improvisation they came up with. Certain moves i didn't think could even be done in bachata. This whole afro beat style to it, then fluidity and a sense of ingrained musicality i've never seen.

Now i had many dances in the local clubs and danced bachata on every timing you can possibly think of. It seemed to me they didn't care about which beat you had to start on, it just felt nice regardless.
They didn't do so many turns as i would have expected, but more partner holding and open holds.
They made me see it in a completely different light.
At first i really did feel like an amateur.

So i sit and have a chat with one of the guys and ask him how he learnt bachata. He tells me his mother taught him bachata since he was a little boy. And he's danced it ever since.
Not only this but every shop, cafe, disco, hairdressers... you name it, play bachata, merengue, salsa and reggaeton constantly. There is no such thing as a quiet street.

I don't think there were every any real rules, just dance how you feel. It really does work if you can move fluidly.

~Giglet~

 

[sagitta]

Returning to the topic of Bachata on2 or on1...
I have just returned from vacation in the Dominican Republic and i always thought i could dance bachata pretty well until this point.
All i have to say is "wow", was i blown away the past couple of weeks.
Not only were their Merengues in a world of their own but their Bachata was danced on any beat they felt like, and they still made it look good.

At one point i was watching some friends of ours we met who are locals, dancing freestyle bachata, and i was in awe at the ammount of improvisation they came up with. Certain moves i didn't think could even be done in bachata. This whole afro beat style to it, then fluidity and a sense of ingrained musicality i've never seen.

Now i had many dances in the local clubs and danced bachata on every timing you can possibly think of. It seemed to me they didn't care about which beat you had to start on, it just felt nice regardless.
They didn't do so many turns as i would have expected, but more partner holding and open holds.
They made me see it in a completely different light.
At first i really did feel like an amateur.

So i sit and have a chat with one of the guys and ask him how he learnt bachata. He tells me his mother taught him bachata since he was a little boy. And he's danced it ever since.
Not only this but every shop, cafe, disco, hairdressers... you name it, play bachata, merengue, salsa and reggaeton constantly. There is no such thing as a quiet street.

I don't think there were every any real rules, just dance how you feel. It really does work if you can move fluidly.

~Giglet~

Glad you had a good time.

 

[noobster]

We should stop thinking, discussing and just dance like this

At one point i was watching some friends of ours we met who are locals, dancing freestyle bachata, and i was in awe at the ammount of improvisation they came up with. Certain moves i didn't think could even be done in bachata. This whole afro beat style to it, then fluidity and a sense of ingrained musicality i've never seen.

I don't think there were every any real rules, just dance how you feel. It really does work if you can move fluidly.

I think it's a bit much to expect someone who learned this dance in a studio, who has had only a few real role models, and who has been dancing for a just few years, to be able to dance it as creatively and musically as someone who has grown up surrounded by the music and the dance.

 

[peachexploration]

If T'ai Chi can be taught, then musicality can be taught.

Wax/on .... Wax/off/off .... Wax/on .... Wax/off/off

"Little grasshopper, you are trying to follow the clave. Instead, you must become the clave."

:uplaugh: Brilliant! :uplaugh:

 

[sweavo]

I wonder if someone could come up with a series of classes. The first workshop I took was quite good, but I'd like to go farther with the concepts. Taking a second workshop didn't help, because it was pretty much the same.

It would be cool if there were, say, a once/month ongoing series on musicality. I'll suggest that to my instructor, but I don't know if there are enough people who would be interested.

Yeah I agree. I think you'd have to take the money off the students for the whole series because there would be spells where they would feel they weren't getting anywhere from one class to the next. Only by thinking "well, I've paid my money, I might as well show up" will they get enough exposure to start to really internalize what they're learning.

I liken this to when I learned how to relax. I'd been going to Tai Chi classes for over a year and going through the motions, and then one day I relaxed my shoulders and actually felt the difference, and knew how I'd done it too. I don't think anyone could have taught me that in a significantly more effective way, than to give me some pointers and wait for me to come to it.

OTOH the course might even have to take with the basic rules of counting to 4 and listening for changes, probably to pop music, something straight forward. Lots of clapping and dancing exercises to different rhythms, initiation into what each percussion instrument sounds like and typical parts of each one, building up in complexity... culminating in examples of a few common breaks and structures. It's certainly something that's beyond my ken to put together quickly!