World's Best Leads E-mail From Edie

[Pierre]

I've just been skim-reading through the posts so I apologise if this has already been said...

I just wanted to pick up on what was said about how musicality is taught in other dance styles such as hip-hop or street.

My partner, Zoë, teaches many types of dance including Street and she always choreographs the moves to correspond to the music. When teaching the routine she always explains these relationships.

However, just because she is explaining how the routine fits the music, this doesn't necessarily mean that the students would be able to do it for themselves - that is the role of a good choreographer.

Even in ballroom, there is a high degree of choreography involved in social dancing even though each move is lead and followed.

With social partner dances, such as salsa, the leader has to be able to choreograph on-the-fly as well as all the other intricacies involved in leading which is what makes it such a uniquely difficult skill.

Apologies if I have not explained myself fully, but I'm on a short lunch break!

 

[sagitta]

I've just been skim-reading through the posts so I apologise if this has already been said...

I just wanted to pick up on what was said about how musicality is taught in other dance styles such as hip-hop or street.

My partner, Zoë, teaches many types of dance including Street and she always choreographs the moves to correspond to the music. When teaching the routine she always explains these relationships.

However, just because she is explaining how the routine fits the music, this doesn't necessarily mean that the students would be able to do it for themselves - that is the role of a good choreographer.

Even in ballroom, there is a high degree of choreography involved in social dancing even though each move is lead and followed.

With social partner dances, such as salsa, the leader has to be able to choreograph on-the-fly as well as all the other intricacies involved in leading which is what makes it such a uniquely difficult skill.

Apologies if I have not explained myself fully, but I'm on a short lunch break!

choreograph means to plan out ahead....I really don't agree with the "choreograph-on-the-fly" usage for street salsa dancing. I don't choreograph when I dance salsa and I refuse to choreograph. And when I do social ballroom I do not choreograph. I never choreograph! Never!!

 

[tj]

I've just been skim-reading through the posts so I apologise if this has already been said...

I just wanted to pick up on what was said about how musicality is taught in other dance styles such as hip-hop or street.

My partner, Zoë, teaches many types of dance including Street and she always choreographs the moves to correspond to the music. When teaching the routine she always explains these relationships.

However, just because she is explaining how the routine fits the music, this doesn't necessarily mean that the students would be able to do it for themselves - that is the role of a good choreographer.

Even in ballroom, there is a high degree of choreography involved in social dancing even though each move is lead and followed.

With social partner dances, such as salsa, the leader has to be able to choreograph on-the-fly as well as all the other intricacies involved in leading which is what makes it such a uniquely difficult skill.

Apologies if I have not explained myself fully, but I'm on a short lunch break!

choreograph means to plan out ahead....I really don't agree with the "choreograph-on-the-fly" usage for street salsa dancing. I don't choreograph when I dance salsa and I refuse to choreograph. And when I do social ballroom I do not choreograph. I never choreograph! Never!!

Hey sagitta, you've mentioned before about how you don't choreograph, as well as how you have good musicality. How about sharing your methods?

 

[Pierre]

I've just been skim-reading through the posts so I apologise if this has already been said...

I just wanted to pick up on what was said about how musicality is taught in other dance styles such as hip-hop or street.

My partner, Zoë, teaches many types of dance including Street and she always choreographs the moves to correspond to the music. When teaching the routine she always explains these relationships.

However, just because she is explaining how the routine fits the music, this doesn't necessarily mean that the students would be able to do it for themselves - that is the role of a good choreographer.

Even in ballroom, there is a high degree of choreography involved in social dancing even though each move is lead and followed.

With social partner dances, such as salsa, the leader has to be able to choreograph on-the-fly as well as all the other intricacies involved in leading which is what makes it such a uniquely difficult skill.

Apologies if I have not explained myself fully, but I'm on a short lunch break!

choreograph means to plan out ahead....I really don't agree with the "choreograph-on-the-fly" usage for street salsa dancing. I don't choreograph when I dance salsa and I refuse to choreograph. And when I do social ballroom I do not choreograph. I never choreograph! Never!!

The leader decides which moves to do and in which order ... which is also known as choreography, no? Deciding which moves fit the music is what distinguishes good choreography from bad. Good dancers aren't necessarily good choreographers and vice-versa.

Choreography/musicality is a vast subject on its own! Expecting to learn it from a one-hour class, once a week, in a group of 30 or so students without personal tuition is somewhat unrealistic.

 

[UnlikelySalsero]

<snip>

I just wanted to pick up on what was said about how musicality is taught in other dance styles such as hip-hop or street.

My partner, Zoë, teaches many types of dance including Street and she always choreographs the moves to correspond to the music. When teaching the routine she always explains these relationships.

However, just because she is explaining how the routine fits the music, this doesn't necessarily mean that the students would be able to do it for themselves - that is the role of a good choreographer.

You are correct, although we can say there are two types of hip-hop dance: choreographed vs. freestyle hip-hop. (Another topic.) Most hip-hop classes are designed around choreographed routines as that is MUCH easier to teach (and for someone like me, easier to dance).

Just the fact that the instructor explains the relationships between the movements and the music causes people to think differently. The students may choose different movements for the same music, but they see the person creating the moves is attempting to create visuals which fit the music.

As for the student doing the same thing, you're correct. Some will do it well, some will do it poorly. I've seen jaw-dropping dancers at Millennium who are amazing choreographers and some who are borderline tone-deaf in terms of their choreography fitting the music.

As you have said, they are two arts; Some people can do both, many can't.

 

[UnlikelySalsero]

choreograph means to plan out ahead....I really don't agree with the "choreograph-on-the-fly" usage for street salsa dancing. I don't choreograph when I dance salsa and I refuse to choreograph. And when I do social ballroom I do not choreograph. I never choreograph! Never!!

You are correct the choreograph means "plan out ahead". But Wikepedia and common usage for choreography is literally "dance-writing", also known as "dance composition" (add "http://" to this link to see their def: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choreography).

Maybe it should have been "choreography-on-the-fly"? :?

While we can debate the syntax (just like we do the dancing), I'm one of those who think of it as "choreography-on-the-fly", or "dance composition in real time" or even "real-time choreography".

BTW - I'd be curious what someone considers the "proper" term(s).

As a traditional American, I have a long, distinguished history of mangling the English language.

 

[sagitta]

I've just been skim-reading through the posts so I apologise if this has already been said...

I just wanted to pick up on what was said about how musicality is taught in other dance styles such as hip-hop or street.

My partner, Zoë, teaches many types of dance including Street and she always choreographs the moves to correspond to the music. When teaching the routine she always explains these relationships.

However, just because she is explaining how the routine fits the music, this doesn't necessarily mean that the students would be able to do it for themselves - that is the role of a good choreographer.

Even in ballroom, there is a high degree of choreography involved in social dancing even though each move is lead and followed.

With social partner dances, such as salsa, the leader has to be able to choreograph on-the-fly as well as all the other intricacies involved in leading which is what makes it such a uniquely difficult skill.

Apologies if I have not explained myself fully, but I'm on a short lunch break!

choreograph means to plan out ahead....I really don't agree with the "choreograph-on-the-fly" usage for street salsa dancing. I don't choreograph when I dance salsa and I refuse to choreograph. And when I do social ballroom I do not choreograph. I never choreograph! Never!!

The leader decides which moves to do and in which order ... which is also known as choreography, no? Deciding which moves fit the music is what distinguishes good choreography from bad. Good dancers aren't necessarily good choreographers and vice-versa.

Choreography/musicality is a vast subject on its own! Expecting to learn it from a one-hour class, once a week, in a group of 30 or so students without personal tuition is somewhat unrealistic.

Dance to me is a converstation. I am going to repaetedly use conversation as an analogy. If you can say that conversations are choreographed I'll agree that dance is choreographed.

Firstly to use choreograph to decide at a moment what to do...or a few seconds ahead of a move is an abuse of the definition. There is a big difference from that and the way that I have experienced the term "choreographing a dance" being used.

Do I sometimes do certain moves with certain followers...yes! For example, I know one person loves spinning and dips and that another hates both. Is this choreographing? Let's see. I talk about different topics with different people. Does that mean my conversations are planned ahead, i.e. choreographed? Are your conversations choreographed?

Secondly, how a follower responds to one move should dictate what happens with the next move. Not what move one thinks one should do, next. When we converse with someone do we plan what we are going to say before a person responds to what we have said. Or, because we are subconsciously or however composing our response as the person is talking do we say that a conversation is choreographed. If we don't then we shouldn't use the term "choreograph" for normal dancing.

I dance a lot with beginners. They often act unexpectedly. How comfortable they are with what I do and how they respond often will dictate what happens next. Secondly many of those who dance with me know that I truly believe in what I say...sometimes they will hijack if they really feel strongly about doing something...just like in a conversation sometimes a person may have a strong feeling about someting and interrupt another talking.

 

[sagitta]

Hey sagitta, you've mentioned before about how you don't choreograph, as well as how you have good musicality. How about sharing your methods?

I don't choreograph..nope...perhaps my previous response above to pierre explains that more fully. As for "good" musicality that is subjective. If I said that I have good musicality I apologize. I do admit to people in my small pond complimenting me on it, and I enjoy bragging about that.

I would say that I am not a fan of musicality because there is something that is more important than that in my opinion. I have realized that I actually am a fan of "connection" and whatever comes from that. If the music asks for a certain kind of movement, but I know that the person whom I am dancing with would be miserable with that kind of movement do I be musical or do I do movement that connects me in a more joyful pleasant way with my partner? I would hope that I always choose the connection. So I can dance in a way that an outsider would look, shake their head, and say, "that person is blaspheming salsa", no way is that person "musical" and lots of other stuff. I wouldn't care if I was connecting with the person I'm dancing with and am still enjoying the dance/song. Would my preference be to dance salsa musically in a way that others can see it too - yes. But, CONNECTION is first.

Another example: I have switched what beat I dance on several times in a dance when a beginner gets confused and switches what they dance on. When that is happening a lot then to get back on a certain beat breaks up the song too much. Sort of like a wandering conversation.

In terms of musicality I would say that I don't come to the dance floor with preconceived notions of what I want to do. The music gives me a feel for how I move my body and then naturally certain moves don't flow well with certain body movements, so I would deliberately have to think of those jarring moves to do if I wanted to plan...sort of like walking vs deciding to jump down one floor. We don't plan each step we walk.

Percussion/lots of drumming...more fast footwork
Romantica...sensual...smoother looking movement...no fast footwork...as an example of what I start with...
Playful flute implies flirt - one reason I like charanga

 

[sagitta]

<snip>

I just wanted to pick up on what was said about how musicality is taught in other dance styles such as hip-hop or street.

My partner, Zoë, teaches many types of dance including Street and she always choreographs the moves to correspond to the music. When teaching the routine she always explains these relationships.

However, just because she is explaining how the routine fits the music, this doesn't necessarily mean that the students would be able to do it for themselves - that is the role of a good choreographer.

You are correct, although we can say there are two types of hip-hop dance: choreographed vs. freestyle hip-hop.

Then let us use that sort of distinction for salsa as well.

 

[sagitta]

choreograph means to plan out ahead....I really don't agree with the "choreograph-on-the-fly" usage for street salsa dancing. I don't choreograph when I dance salsa and I refuse to choreograph. And when I do social ballroom I do not choreograph. I never choreograph! Never!!

You are correct the choreograph means "plan out ahead". But Wikepedia and common usage for choreography is literally "dance-writing", also known as "dance composition" (add "http://" to this link to see their def: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choreography).

Maybe it should have been "choreography-on-the-fly"? :?

While we can debate the syntax (just like we do the dancing), I'm one of those who think of it as "choreography-on-the-fly", or "dance composition in real time" or even "real-time choreography".

BTW - I'd be curious what someone considers the "proper" term(s).

As a traditional American, I have a long, distinguished history of mangling the English language.

hmm...as long as we trap ourselves in the confines of the word "choreograph" our energies are put into planning rather than dancing. I rather focus on moving to the music with my partner - connection.

 

[tj]

Hey sagitta, you've mentioned before about how you don't choreograph, as well as how you have good musicality. How about sharing your methods?

I don't choreograph..nope...perhaps my previous response above to pierre explains that more fully. As for "good" musicality that is subjective. If I said that I have good musicality I apologize. I do admit to people in my small pond complimenting me on it, and I enjoy bragging about that.

No worries, I just wanted your insight on the subject.

I would say that I am not a fan of musicality because there is something that is more important than that in my opinion. I have realized that I actually am a fan of "connection" and whatever comes from that. If the music asks for a certain kind of movement, but I know that the person whom I am dancing with would be miserable with that kind of movement do I be musical or do I do movement that connects me in a more joyful pleasant way with my partner? I would hope that I always choose the connection. So I can dance in a way that an outsider would look, shake their head, and say, "that person is blaspheming salsa", no way is that person "musical" and lots of other stuff. I wouldn't care if I was connecting with the person I'm dancing with and am still enjoying the dance/song. Would my preference be to dance salsa musically in a way that others can see it too - yes. But, CONNECTION is first.

Another example: I have switched what beat I dance on several times in a dance when a beginner gets confused and switches what they dance on. When that is happening a lot then to get back on a certain beat breaks up the song too much. Sort of like a wandering conversation.

Yes, definitely makes sense.

In terms of musicality I would say that I don't come to the dance floor with preconceived notions of what I want to do. The music gives me a feel for how I move my body and then naturally certain moves don't flow well with certain body movements, so I would deliberately have to think of those jarring moves to do if I wanted to plan...sort of like walking vs deciding to jump down one floor. We don't plan each step we walk.

Percussion/lots of drumming...more fast footwork
Romantica...sensual...smoother looking movement...no fast footwork...as an example of what I start with...
Playful flute implies flirt - one reason I like charanga

Thanks! Interesting to read about your creative process.

 

[sagitta]

I'll think more about the musicallity and as my creative process is fleshed out I'll report back..

A quick comment. There are times when I will just practice some moves during a song. Again no choreography as it is practice. I hope that no one would call a practice/practica choreography.

 

[tj]

Hmm... summing up where I'm at, along with a recap of some of the previous subjects:

I'm trying to move away from Pattern Monkey mode. If I'm not inspired by a song, or if I have horrible connection with a partner, I'll likely fall back into that mode. I can't/won't have musicality to a bad song.

Conflict between being creative on the fly versus choreography
I am dangerously close to moving towards choreography versus being creative on the fly. In other words, doing the same thing during a fav song rather than being playful and creative. There's a philosophical difference between the two. If you do the same series of moves every time to a specific and memorized song, that removes a lot of the "magic". It's no longer creative, it's just memorization.

Connection vs musicality
Natural tendency for one to disrupt the other. If I'm playing too much with the music, then I could easily give my partner a choppy, rough dance. Important to take care of your partner first.

Different forms of musicality
General mood of the entire song vs playing with specific phrases/breaks/highlights vs tracking specific instruments
They're all relevant and important.

 

[UnlikelySalsero]

choreograph means to plan out ahead....I really don't agree with the "choreograph-on-the-fly" usage for street salsa dancing. I don't choreograph when I dance salsa and I refuse to choreograph. And when I do social ballroom I do not choreograph. I never choreograph! Never!!

You are correct the choreograph means "plan out ahead". But Wikepedia and common usage for choreography is literally "dance-writing", also known as "dance composition" (add "http://" to this link to see their def: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choreography).

Maybe it should have been "choreography-on-the-fly"? :?

While we can debate the syntax (just like we do the dancing), I'm one of those who think of it as "choreography-on-the-fly", or "dance composition in real time" or even "real-time choreography".

BTW - I'd be curious what someone considers the "proper" term(s).

As a traditional American, I have a long, distinguished history of mangling the English language.

hmm...as long as we trap ourselves in the confines of the word "choreograph" our energies are put into planning rather than dancing. I rather focus on moving to the music with my partner - connection.

I'm not really worried about the words, but I don't see how "real-time choreography" limits me. It's not pre-planned, although frankly, all partner dancing has some elements of planning.

We practice basic, some turns, CBL and other foundational moves so we don't have to think about it, but how/where we use our set of moves depends on our partner, the music, the moment and our connection.

When practicing different movements to different sounds, then we are doing some planning and experimenting with different options. (And I'd say that fits within the choreographing term. But maybe that's just me.)

We may not think of it as a plan but even "basic" is a plan for a certain number of steps against a certain amount of music. A CBL is another plan for moving my partner to another location. Two people may execute their plan differently, so planning doesn't limit.

We all have a certain set of moves we have practiced before, although how we express them with different partners on different nights may vary greatly. I plan on a CBL finishing within 8 counts, but if my partner takes longer, I'll change something on the fly and we will have something unique. Having a plan is just a starting point, but it doesn't limit me.

Unflexible choreography is NOT social dancing, that should be reserved for performing.

Jazz music has similar elements. Your improvisation is on the fly, but few do it well without years of planning and practice. And the reality is even the best are improvising using elements which were learned and practiced long before the moment of execution. The art is combining/recombining/editing on the fly to create something unique each time, but the elements themselves are rarely absolutely new.

You and I are totally on the same page with connection! It doesn't matter what moves you are executing, without the connection you can simply dance by yourself.

If I do basic and a CBL (both planned moves), that doesn't mean I have or don't have a connection. The same applies to all my other moves. Musicality without connection is also a waste from my point of view.

I see those as "AND" concepts rather than "OR" concepts. We want both, not one or the other.

 

[UnlikelySalsero]

Hmm... summing up where I'm at, along with a recap of some of the previous subjects:

I'm trying to move away from Pattern Monkey mode. If I'm not inspired by a song, or if I have horrible connection with a partner, I'll likely fall back into that mode. I can't/won't have musicality to a bad song.

Conflict between being creative on the fly versus choreography
I am dangerously close to moving towards choreography versus being creative on the fly. In other words, doing the same thing during a fav song rather than being playful and creative. There's a philosophical difference between the two. If you do the same series of moves every time to a specific and memorized song, that removes a lot of the "magic". It's no longer creative, it's just memorization.

I'd say this is normal... Most people start with similar moves to songs they know and over time they grow their dancing. You have to try different things and some things work better than others. You have to figure out what establishes the right feel and that will vary with different partners. One of the keys is always looking for new moves to express the feel of the music, building a larger movement vocabulary over time.

Connection vs musicality
Natural tendency for one to disrupt the other. If I'm playing too much with the music, then I could easily give my partner a choppy, rough dance. Important to take care of your partner first.

I'd say that is temporary... As the dancing matures, you have more mental bandwidth available for paying attention to your partner and play with the music, because you move to what you hear without thought. You can have a great connection and be musical. From my point of view, it's hard to be musical without a great connection.

Your point is excellent: Taking care of your partner is always the most important lead responsibility.

Different forms of musicality
General mood of the entire song vs playing with specific phrases/breaks/highlights vs tracking specific instruments
They're all relevant and important.

Agreed... That's the art of it. Two couples can dance the same song, both be musical, but dance a very different dance. If they switch partners and do the same tune, it should still be a different dance, because both leads will have different feedback from their partners, changing the overall feel.

 

[tj]

Lol, all right - I have pretty much nothing to add except that I think I agree with the points that all three of you have mentioned.

Oh, and also I like your 9/14 musicality article, US. Just read it now.

 

[sagitta]

choreograph means to plan out ahead....I really don't agree with the "choreograph-on-the-fly" usage for street salsa dancing. I don't choreograph when I dance salsa and I refuse to choreograph. And when I do social ballroom I do not choreograph. I never choreograph! Never!!

You are correct the choreograph means "plan out ahead". But Wikepedia and common usage for choreography is literally "dance-writing", also known as "dance composition" (add "http://" to this link to see their def: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choreography).

Maybe it should have been "choreography-on-the-fly"? :?

While we can debate the syntax (just like we do the dancing), I'm one of those who think of it as "choreography-on-the-fly", or "dance composition in real time" or even "real-time choreography".

BTW - I'd be curious what someone considers the "proper" term(s).

As a traditional American, I have a long, distinguished history of mangling the English language.

hmm...as long as we trap ourselves in the confines of the word "choreograph" our energies are put into planning rather than dancing. I rather focus on moving to the music with my partner - connection.

I'm not really worried about the words, but I don't see how "real-time choreography" limits me. It's not pre-planned, although frankly, all partner dancing has some elements of planning.

We practice basic, some turns, CBL and other foundational moves so we don't have to think about it, but how/where we use our set of moves depends on our partner, the music, the moment and our connection.

When practicing different movements to different sounds, then we are doing some planning and experimenting with different options. (And I'd say that fits within the choreographing term. But maybe that's just me.)

We may not think of it as a plan but even "basic" is a plan for a certain number of steps against a certain amount of music. A CBL is another plan for moving my partner to another location. Two people may execute their plan differently, so planning doesn't limit.

We all have a certain set of moves we have practiced before, although how we express them with different partners on different nights may vary greatly. I plan on a CBL finishing within 8 counts, but if my partner takes longer, I'll change something on the fly and we will have something unique. Having a plan is just a starting point, but it doesn't limit me.

Unflexible choreography is NOT social dancing, that should be reserved for performing.

Jazz music has similar elements. Your improvisation is on the fly, but few do it well without years of planning and practice. And the reality is even the best are improvising using elements which were learned and practiced long before the moment of execution. The art is combining/recombining/editing on the fly to create something unique each time, but the elements themselves are rarely absolutely new.

You and I are totally on the same page with connection! It doesn't matter what moves you are executing, without the connection you can simply dance by yourself.

If I do basic and a CBL (both planned moves), that doesn't mean I have or don't have a connection. The same applies to all my other moves. Musicality without connection is also a waste from my point of view.

I see those as "AND" concepts rather than "OR" concepts. We want both, not one or the other.

As we talk more and more I see how we move closer and closer. It is easy to see the similarities. When I dance I seek to transcend beyond the concept of thinking about doing to just being. To move to the music with my partner iin way that it flows magically, seamlessly without thought. When I am done dancing I don't know what I have done. If my partner breaks and asks me I liked that do it again I don't know what that was as I didn't think it. (The last has happened many many times...) We are tthree in one and to think or even do choreograph-on-the-fly means to break that trinity as I assert my uniqueness. Perhaps we differ in our interpretation of how unique one can be, how seperated, and yet achieve what we want with our partner and music and still be part of the trinity.

 

[sagitta]

In terms of musicality. After tonight I notice that the general mood of the music sets up how I move in the beginning...and then as I dance there are different elements that catch my attention and result in the a modification of body movement or a change of move execution..

 

[sweavo]

BTW - I'd be curious what someone considers the "proper" term(s).

Improvising..?

I didn't have an issue with the term "choreograph on the fly" as it seems to me that what is meant is nothing more than "choosing what move to do next". However, when I started to think about this, there are many nuances that separate choreography and improvisation:

In choreography, (graphy implies writing down) you get to structure a piece. On being inspired by a climax of the song, you might relocated a particular move to that part of the song and alter an earlier move to foreshadow it. When extemporising, the past is done, you only have the present and future to play with.

When choreographing, you have time to reflect and carefully select and tune movements, not so when improvising.

 

[AndrewD]

I suspect this is a case of – one man’s ‘not choreographing’ is another’s ‘choreographing on the fly’.

I think most leaders must know a series of moves that flow naturally from one to the other. As I get more experienced instead of having to plan the next move, the next move is dictated to me by a number of things, including but not limited to – floor space, where my partner is, how our hands have ended up, the music etc. Sometimes this takes you to places you’ve never been before and if you’re on form the flow continues, sometimes not.

Like I say as we get more experienced, the time we need to think about the next move diminishes – before it used to be a whole 8 beats, then maybe 4 beats. Now, when I’m in the groove, I don’t really know what I’m going to lead until I’ve actually started leading it.