What is the Eddie Torres technique?

Myst said:
Hopefully Rumba will continue to grow in popularity as you seem to indicate. But it is hardly a mainstream dance even in Cuba, never mind any where else in the world.
That was kinda my point, that it's not practical as your primary social dance.
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Rumba is absolutely a mainstream dance in Cuba -- in certain social and racial circles and locations. Comparatively well-off whites don't dance it much. It's not danced much in clubs except as part of casino. So most tourists don't see much rumba except as part of performances. But it is danced socially _all the time_ in neighborhoods and solares all over the country. Many of my friends grew up dancing rumba every day and they still do when they go home. Many neighborhoods you only need show up with a bottle of Havana Club and say -- hey, can we get a rumba together -- and 5 minutes later you'll have people in the street with congas, bongos, claves, everything you need, and off you go. Not a show at all, just people dancing and having fun together (although, as timberamayor points out, there is often a bit of a show-off aspect to it).
 
Myst said:
You are still offering anecdotal information, second hand hear-say has little persuasive power. If you want to offer a counter argument at least take the time to share some evidence or citing some sources, otherwise it's nothing but your "perspective."

Power 2 is commonly referred to as Puerto Rican on2 or Traditional On2, and it is distinct from NYon2 (aka: modern on2, Modern mambo, Club Style, ETOn2, etc) or LAon1.

I'll start offering the first source:
http://www.salsaisgood.com/Mambo-ChaChaCha/Mambo-ChaChaCha.htm

Scroll down for an overview of On2
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I'm fully aware of what Power 2 is as are most long-time SFers. I'm just saying that you should not call it Puerto Rican style. It is referred to as "Palladium style" a lot more, and that is historically accurate.

The "source" you are offering is some Australian dance school, I don't see how that is more relevant than my first-hand experience discussing this both with Palladium era dancers in New York and Puerto Rican dancers (from PR). If that is what you consider "hear-say" then I have nothing more to add, you need to do your own research with people who actually lived during the era when P2 came about.

Eddie Torres and Frankie (are they non-hear-say enough..?) have also both said that until the musicians in NY told the dancers to break on2, no one was dancing like that. On2 (whether it is P2 or ET2) is made in NY, not PR.
 
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Myst said:
Power 2 - also called Puerto Rican on2 - has the same basic step that LAon1 but is distinct from either ETon2 or LAon1. It's danced on the second beat, but the footwork actually looks identical to LAon1: start with the left leg forward on the 2 count (vs starting on the 1 like LA)

ETOn2/NY style - also danced on the second beat - has different basic footwork to either PRon2 or LAon1. You prep on the 1 with the right (or take a tiny step), then take a longer step with the 2 using your left leg.

If you go to Puerto Rico they might be dancing a number of things, including Regueteon, my distinction is based on historical styles, not on the current praxis or your anecdotal experience as a tourist.

As an analogy, if you go to Cuba right now, you won't find many dancing Danzon - that doesn't make it any less Cuban or real in a historical sense...
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I believe Power On2 is also called Palladium style, at least that's what a well known teacher confirmed to me.

Regarding the timing, I am on of those few who switched to ET2 from L.A. style after few years in my part of the world and I can confirm that it is indeed one of the most difficult things to do, I'm speaking for myself of course, others may have had an easier transition. It took me a while to get comfortable with it and now I'm over that barrier.

ET2 is absolutely my favorite. Sometimes I downright refuse to dance on1 (I should be living in NY).

I invested in a lot of Afro-Cuban/Rumba and body isolation training . I refer to it Afro-Cuban because this is what teachers over here call it . Very few can make the distinction but I know that most the "Afro-Cuban" I've learned is Guaguanco (which by now i'm starting to forget).

I usually use it in songs where there's obviously, guaguanco/rumba sections (one song that comes to mind is Valio La Pena - mark Anthony which I totally dislike BTW) because there is nothing more ridiculous than seeing a dancer going linear when guaguanco section kicks-in which is what 99.9% of dancers over here do.

While it's true it cannot be used in social dancing context on regular basis, but it helps a lot on few occasions.
 
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Sabrosura said:
No such thing, unless we're talking about "Nuyorican" salsa, which is a different animal.

Puerto Ricans generally dance on1 and on3, and seldom on2/on6, on2 is pretty rare among them (to the point where they even dance cha cha on1), though it is beginning to be taught in salsa schools in San Juan so it is becoming more common among the younger generation of dancers. (I'm in Puerto Rico at the moment, taking a quick glance on SF while winding down after a night of dancing :))
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That was also our experience when we were there.
 
Myst said:
Great post, I just wanted to clarify about your evaluation of Yoel Marrero. Yes, he's dancing Son very traditionally, I think I noted that in my original entry . But the man can certainly dance Casino (which is a modernized Son) and pretty darn good Rumba. If you speak Spanish, you will see how well articulated his musings on Cuban dance and music are. The guy is basically an encyclopedia.
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Yeah I've watched him since he started posting his Casino Para Todos and it's an excellent additional resource. He is like an encyclopedia but unfortunately my Spanish is not up to it with the subtleties and accent. Wish he would add more english translations. My comment was related to the fact he hardly ever adds in Mambo or Rumba body movement to his Casino. He dances Casino mostly exactly like he dances Son, which is fine, as it's based on Son, but not my general preference. I do it once in a while like that when dancing Contratiempo to certain tracks, but could never get away with it here continuously with so much Reggaeton, Rumba and folkloric infused Timba. ;) I wouldn't want to anyway, fusion is part of the fun. I've never seen him dance Rumba for example. If you can post a clip?

Ah, found one:


But still not a lot of body movement, even though it's a pretty good Guaguanco. Heh.
 
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azzey said:








As the title of the video says, it's a workshop focused on technical aspects of Son basic movement. If he was dancing Son, he'd be doing it with a partner. Workshops generally only show a snapshot of a particular aspect of a dance and often a lot is left out. So you often need to take/watch many different workshops to get the full picture, as with Salsa or Rumba. Dance is much more complex and detailed than can be shown in an hour. Every time I do a Son workshop I learn something new, especially if it's with a different instructor.

Another thing is that body movement is only special if you do it sparingly. Think about that.

Here's an alternative example which I think is what you're looking for:


Son will challenge your ability to lead smoothly, your balance (with the tricks), with body movement, cuban motion, ability to move around the room seamlessly using the basic step, your on2 timing of course, give you additional styling elements for Salsa. Once you do not have the crutch of complex moves and spins you will find it a challenge to fill the gap with quality movement and that will pay dividends in your Salsa.
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I wonder if I can practice Son without a partner though?
It seems like Son can only be practiced with another partner.

Would Rumba, then, be more beneficial for someone who doesn't have a partner?
 
Nevermind... I'm sticking with Rumba... just ran across this video someone posted before. The guy has beautiful movement. This is what I need:


SmallSteps3000 said:
I wonder if I can practice Son without a partner though?
It seems like Son can only be practiced with another partner.

Would Rumba, then, be more beneficial for someone who doesn't have a partner?
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Sabrosura said:
Eddie Torres and Frankie (are they non-hear-say enough..?) have also both said that until the musicians in NY told the dancers to break on2, no one was dancing like that. On2 (whether it is P2 or ET2) is made in NY, not PR.
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Really? I doubt they ever said that dancing on2 was born in the Palladium... Why? because they both will very well know than Son is danced on2 (contra tiempo) - which precedes the Palladium era...
 
Myst said:
Really? I doubt they ever said that dancing on2 was born in the Palladium... Why? because they both will very well know than Son is danced on2 (contra tiempo) - which precedes the Palladium era...
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They were talking about On2 in "salsa"/"mambo", not in other dances.
 
Sabrosura said:
They were talking about On2 in "salsa"/"mambo", darling, not in other dances.
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Darling? :oops: lol

Well, I think Son is HIGHLY relevant to a discussion of latin dance anywhere - but especially in that timeframe (it's not like I brought up Paso Doble or Can-Can)

Anyways, my original post wasn't about the provenance of Power2, but that it is another salsa style among the list of recommendations I made.
 
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TSC said:
Rumba is absolutely a mainstream dance in Cuba -- in certain social and racial circles and locations. Comparatively well-off whites don't dance it much. It's not danced much in clubs except as part of casino. So most tourists don't see much rumba except as part of performances. But it is danced socially _all the time_ in neighborhoods and solares all over the country. Many of my friends grew up dancing rumba every day and they still do when they go home. Many neighborhoods you only need show up with a bottle of Havana Club and say -- hey, can we get a rumba together -- and 5 minutes later you'll have people in the street with congas, bongos, claves, everything you need, and off you go. Not a show at all, just people dancing and having fun together (although, as timberamayor points out, there is often a bit of a show-off aspect to it).
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I know you visit Cuban often. But I was born and raised there, I left at 18, and lived in Habana, not some isolated rural town. My family is still there, so I know what's going on.

Unless we are using the word "mainstream" in different ways, Rumba is not mainstream in the sense of Regueton or pop music are - meaning that regular folk listen and dance to it daily.

Now, if by mainstream you mean that it is danced in "Solares" once in a while, and in tourist spots, and may be even in "Toques de Santos". Then in that sense, sure. But that to me is not exactly mainstream.

One more thing, being able to throw some Rumba steps as many Cubans can do more or less is not the same as dancing Folkloric Rumba - like Muñequitos de Matanzas have been trained to do in the ENA (Escuela Nacional de Arte)
 
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Myst said:
Darling? :oops: lol

Well, I think Son is HIGHLY relevant to a discussion of latin dance anywhere - but especially in that timeframe (it's not like I brought up Paso Doble or Can-Can)

Anyways, my original post wasn't about the provenance of Power2, but that it is another salsa style among the list of recommendations I made.
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Of course son is relevant, except the majority of the salsa world outside of NY, including in Latin America (excluding the Cuba homeland), failed to be influenced by it timing-wise as they all, with some exceptions, dance on1 and/or on3. New York is the exception. So something happened there for on2 to become the norm. The story is that Machito told Cuban Pete and other dancers to break on2 in order to match the music. And we know from Eddie and Frankie that Tito Puente would not allow anyone dancing on stage at his concerts to dance on1. So the evidence points to the fact that on2 "salsa/mambo", while influenced of course by son, was born in NY. Just like salsa dura, on2 was "cooked in Cuba and served in New York". And (sadly) it stopped in NY and did not spread to other areas, other than small on2 pockets here and there, hence all the cha cha on1 dancing we see everywhere. (Though on2 is now in more recent times becoming more popular.)
 
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With all the travel between NY and PR in the 50s and 60s, don't you think some PR dancers in that era were dancing on2 (even if it soon fell out of favour)?

I agree that it was imported from son, and it went to NYC before PR.
 
DJ Yuca said:
With all the travel between NY and PR in the 50s and 60s, don't you think some PR dancers in that era were dancing on2 (even if it soon fell out of favour)?

I agree that it was imported from son, and it went to NYC before PR.
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Sure, that would have likely happened, but yeah the direction was most likely from NY to PR not the other way around.

In fact, some Puerto Ricans (born and raised in PR) go as far as saying that salsa is not "their" dance, that bomba and plena are. It's a big mental adjustment for me because I'm so used to the sabor-full old Nuyorican dancers in NY, but it seems that when it comes to salsa dancing there is a big difference between "Puerto Ricans" and "Nuyoricans". I was going to make a separate thread about it but here we are :p
 
Sabrosura said:
Sure, that would have likely happened, but yeah the direction was most likely from NY to PR not the other way around.

In fact, some Puerto Ricans (born and raised in PR) go as far as saying that salsa is not "their" dance, that bomba and plena are. It's a big mental adjustment for me because I'm so used to the sabor-full old Nuyorican dancers in NY, but it seems that when it comes to salsa dancing there is a big difference between "Puerto Ricans" and "Nuyoricans". I was going to make a separate thread about it but here we are :p
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You should :) I think it will open a nice can of worms and Yuca and me we'll get a second go at the origins of Salsa... (kidding Yuca!)
 
Sabrosura said:
Sure, that would have likely happened, but yeah the direction was most likely from NY to PR not the other way around.

In fact, some Puerto Ricans (born and raised in PR) go as far as saying that salsa is not "their" dance, that bomba and plena are. It's a big mental adjustment for me because I'm so used to the sabor-full old Nuyorican dancers in NY, but it seems that when it comes to salsa dancing there is a big difference between "Puerto Ricans" and "Nuyoricans". I was going to make a separate thread about it but here we are :p
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That's interesting, however I'm talking about the pre-salsa days - I wonder what born and raised Boricuas who were dancing in the 50s and 60s think of mambo. Tito Rodríguez must have been massive in his home island back in the 50s and 60s - were all those people dancing to his music on1? I simply cannot believe that (although I know on2 never made it to S America).
 
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