Salsa leaders - your golden rules

[LawrenceS]

You are missing the point. All these things may be differences (depending on ones viewpoint) but that does not make them more or less than another dance. Just elements. There are probably more elements of technique in Salsa than in AT at a high level (yes I've done AT as well), but I'm not going to argue it either way.

At a high level both would require a high level of technique. The entry level may be higher for some aspects of AT, though you don't need to learn to balance while turning fast or spinning in AT do you? You're trying to judge one dance (Salsa) by the merits of the other (AT).

The smaller the movements, the greater the necessities of fine motor control. In AT, the movements are often much smaller due to the constraints of the embrace. As a result, the accessibility of the dance is greatly limited to those who have learned this control.

The large movements in salsa that are necessary to lead does not require such fine motor control. As a result, it is much more accessible to a larger audience without as much practice.

And yes, even in AT there are turns and spins, though not often.

There is just as much requirement for lead/follow in Salsa, the balance of the elements are different that's all. ... In the same way it's absurd to say that one method of leading is more than another, different but not more.

There are many basics of leading in tango which are completely absent in salsa, which I've mentioned, which is the point of argument to say that Argentine tango is more technical than salsa. In salsa, the leader rarely transfers the follower's weight, if at all, but in AT, it is a requirement to lead. In salsa, it's possible to dance without ever making contact, alla mambo, but the tango is all about the embrace.

Leading in tango is a hell of a lot more technical than salsa.

 

[vit]

Well, I transfer the weight of my followers quite often, because I like to play with it ... maybe I'm not a typical salsero, as I came from ballroom, but I'm quite sure that there are many salseros that are much better than me and that they are doing the same, because advanced followers are very familiar with that, so obviously I'm not the only one doing that ...

There are small/precise movements when leading the partner in salsa also, but because they are small they are not that visible as they are overwhelmed by big movements. Surely there are more small movements in tango, as you can't do that things big and stay in close hold or embrace as tango dancers call it ...

However, you won't see this at beginner and intermediate levels of salsa ... but I'm quite sure I don't see much of that at comparable levels of argentine tango dancers either

I think that comparing oranges and apples doesn't make much sense, because tango and salsa are obviously quite different, so we can always find arguments that one dance is "better" than another in various aspects ... but at high levels, many things turn to be quite similar

 

[petteri]

The smaller the movements, the greater the necessities of fine motor control. In AT, the movements are often much smaller due to the constraints of the embrace. As a result, the accessibility of the dance is greatly limited to those who have learned this control.

In think that "standard" dances are generally easier to lead than dances which use one-hand holds. Man moves and lady follows. Two-handed leads and body leads generally do not require such connection, precision and timing as advanced one-hand leads.

The large movements in salsa that are necessary to lead does not require such fine motor control. As a result, it is much more accessible to a larger audience without as much practice.

In my experience high-quality crossbody salsa has the smallest and most sensitive leads of any social dance form I have danced.

 

[Smejmoon]

There are many basics of leading in tango which are completely absent in salsa, which I've mentioned, which is the point of argument to say that Argentine tango is more technical than salsa. In salsa, the leader rarely transfers the follower's weight, if at all, but in AT, it is a requirement to lead. In salsa, it's possible to dance without ever making contact, alla mambo, but the tango is all about the embrace.

Leading in tango is a hell of a lot more technical than salsa.

Not sure you have significant experience with salsa to make such statements. In good salsa leader transfers the follower's weight all the time in the closed position and much of the time in the open.

Argentine tango would be incredibly boring without certain technique, while in salsa people can jump around happily solo or holding hands and have fun. If you're compare non contact salsa with AT you're correct. But that's not how salsa works in the real life. Don't compare salsa newbies with trained tango dancers.

P.S. I'm a beginner in the salsa and discovering all the cool things dancers can do when they play with each others weight. Try different follows and you'll find out some of them actually follow you.

Also have you danced salsa with advanced leads?

 

[Smejmoon]

the accessibility of the dance is greatly limited to those who have learned this control.

The large movements in salsa that are necessary to lead does not require such fine motor control. As a result, it is much more accessible to a larger audience without as much practice.

After reading this, I think we don't have such disagreement after all. Except when we might agree that there is higher bar for satisfactory tango, this does not mean there is upper limit on what's possible in the salsa.

 

[vit]

In think that "standard" dances are generally easier to lead than dances which use one-hand holds. Man moves and lady follows. Two-handed leads and body leads generally do not require such connection, precision and timing as advanced one-hand leads.

Depends on level of the dance and figures being danced again. If you gonna dance some social foxtrot or slow waltz, surely it's quite easy to lead the partner by grabbing her with both hands and start walking around the room dancing some simple figures or dance pattern

However, really good leader is capable of leading the partner into syllabus figures using zero hands, and good follower should be able to follow maintaining only light body contact, doing extremely long steps (compared to social ballroom standard or salsa for instance) and it should look as you don't put any effort in that movement (although it's very far from that). Having perfect balance, although you are out of statical balance all the time is essential for that to work. It's quite demanding. So far, I never met a good social b/r standard leader without competitive background (while I know some good social salsa and AT leaders without any previous dancing history), although I believe they exist in some countries like England, Germany etc ...

Things change when more complex figures are danced, where you really can't do it without usage of hands, common balance etc - just like in some moves in salsa. The same is true for low level dancers dancing simple/syllabus figures - they are too demanding for them, so they also have to use both hands all the time to prevent falling apart as a couple ...

 

[Offbeat]

You are missing the point. All these things may be differences (depending on ones viewpoint) but that does not make them more or less than another dance. Just elements. There are probably more elements of technique in Salsa than in AT at a high level (yes I've done AT as well), but I'm not going to argue it either way.

At a high level both would require a high level of technique. The entry level may be higher for some aspects of AT, though you don't need to learn to balance while turning fast or spinning in AT do you? You're trying to judge one dance (Salsa) by the merits of the other (AT)..

Let's take an analogy. That is akin to saying that Math and History are equally difficult to study/learn. Yes they may be equally difficult for someone doing PhD in them respectively. With all due apology to historians, at the high school through college level, people generally find math more difficult than history.

At the highest level any discipline is equally hard. But we are not talking about that. We are talking about an average dancer. All things being equal, an average dancer is much more likely to have fun at Salsa sooner than at AT. Or in other words learning curve in AT is going to be steeper to reach an equivalent level of proficiency.

Also for most of the people who dance both, whom I know, have maintained that AT is more difficult. Not that my sample size is significant (about dozen or so).

 

[azana]

Let's take an analogy. That is akin to saying that Math and History are equally to study/learn. Yes they may be equally difficult for someone doing PhD in them respectively. With all due apology to historians, at the high school through college level, people generally find math more difficult than history.

At the highest level any discipline is equally hard. But we are not talking about that. We are talking about an average dancer. All things being equal, an average dancer is much more likely to have fun at Salsa sooner than at AT. Or in other words learning curve in AT is going to be steeper to reach an equivalent level of proficiency.

Also for most of the people who dance both, whom I know, have maintained that AT is more difficult. Not that my sample size is significant (about dozen or so).

You are so lucky I am not about to enter into a pedagogical argument on a dance forum.

(Offended history teacher here grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!)

 

[Offbeat]

I think that comparing oranges and apples doesn't make much sense, because tango and salsa are obviously quite different, so we can always find arguments that one dance is "better" than another in various aspects ... but at high levels, many things turn to be quite similar

The question is and was never about one dance being better than other. That is a strawman argument. The question is whether learning curve in AT is steeper than in Salsa to reach same level of proficiency. Or to put it in other words - take 100 dancers. Teach them salsa once a week and AT once a week. After say 20 weeks, can you compare their proficiency in each dance. There might be outliers who will be much better in one than the other. A significant number will be more at ease dancing one than the other.

 

[Offbeat]

You are so lucky I am not about to enter into a pedagogical argument on a dance forum.

(Offended history teacher here grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!)

I knew I would offend someone. But you only have to look at what the whole country (of USA) talks about when it comes to education - low achievement scores in math and science

 

[azana]

What they care about. Also the questionable methods of measurement. Snapshot standardised tests designed to rank schools and chase favorable international ratings rather than provide positive washback for students.

Whatever. Signing out now before subjecting readers to additional non-dance related ranting!

 

[Offbeat]

Well, I transfer the weight of my followers quite often, because I like to play with it ... maybe I'm not a typical salsero, as I came from ballroom, but I'm quite sure that there are many salseros that are much better than me and that they are doing the same, because advanced followers are very familiar with that, so obviously I'm not the only one doing that ...

There are small/precise movements when leading the partner in salsa also, but because they are small they are not that visible as they are overwhelmed by big movements. Surely there are more small movements in tango, as you can't do that things big and stay in close hold or embrace as tango dancers call it ...

However, you won't see this at beginner and intermediate levels of salsa ... but I'm quite sure I don't see much of that at comparable levels of argentine tango dancers either

At end of the day, all partner dances (except ceroc) share most of the techniques. That is not the argument. It is about which techniques you have to use more often when dancing a particular dance.

There are other factors when you go to Milonga. E.g. Unlike salsa you can't dance where you like; you are constrained by the line of dance, how fast the line is moving, who is ahead and behind you (there by more spatial awareness and ability to react to it). Arguably same can be said in salsa if there are more people on the floor, you have to dance small, avoid hitting or getting hit by other close by etc. But it is not the same. And of course you don't have to deal with snobbish followers in salsa That last point should settle the argument

 

[azzey]

The question is and was never about one dance being better than other. That is a strawman argument. The question is whether learning curve in AT is steeper than in Salsa to reach same level of proficiency.

I accept that one may have a steeper learning curve in certain areas BUT that was NOT the original statement.

Or to put it in other words - take 100 dancers. Teach them salsa once a week and AT once a week. After say 20 weeks, can you compare their proficiency in each dance. There might be outliers who will be much better in one than the other. A significant number will be more at ease dancing one than the other.

LOL. If you take that as your method - Take 100 Ceroc dancers and see how diabolical they are compared to the Tango and Salsa dancers after the same period. Does that make Ceroc more technical than either? Ha!

It completely depends on the teacher and teaching methods used. As has been proven time and again when you look at students from different schools and areas after the same amount of time learning. The emphasis on technique or not, the emphasis on quality or not, the emphasis on fun or not.. how good the overall scene is.

Then what criteria do you use to compare the proficiency of Salsa dancers to Tango dancers may I ask?

If it's the number who are comfortable dancing socially (as has been suggested earlier) that would highly depend on the friendliness of the scene to beginner dancers, how much the teacher tells them to "go dance socially" etc. Very little to do with technique.

The ones who get more social dancing experience will, on average, be better dancers and more at ease after the same time period.

 

[azzey]

All things being equal, an average dancer is much more likely to have fun at Salsa sooner than at AT.

Or in other words learning curve in AT is going to be steeper to reach an equivalent level of proficiency.

Also for most of the people who dance both, whom I know, have maintained that AT is more difficult. Not that my sample size is significant (about dozen or so).

For the fun argument see my post above - it has much more to do with social dynamics than technique.

I didn't find AT hard at all to dance socially the first time. I even started dancing Milongas before I took a single class! The whole slow pace of the dance relative to Salsa means that it's much easier to learn on-the-fly if anything. :evil: Like Kizomba. :razz:

Probably one of the hardest thing for some people to get over is the proximity to the opposite sex ; now again, nothing to do with technique.

Btw, I saw some Tango teachers dance recently who had major flaws in basic dance technique like weight transfer, leading/following, balance etc. They were visibly shaking/off balance during a dance demo. Was the poor dancing (relative to what I've seen other Tango dancers demonstrate) a product of the learning curve of AT? Even though they'd been dancing longer than 10 years. They sure looked like they were having fun!

 

[azzey]

The smaller the movements, the greater the necessities of fine motor control. In AT, the movements are often much smaller due to the constraints of the embrace. As a result, the accessibility of the dance is greatly limited to those who have learned this control.

The large movements in salsa that are necessary to lead does not require such fine motor control. As a result, it is much more accessible to a larger audience without as much practice.

In Cuban Salsa the embrace in closed hold can be closer and rely much more on body leading and fine motor control.

Kizomba has a fairly similar embrace (at least proximity wise) to AT and requires fine motor control leading followers weight with small movements. Is Kizomba equally as technical as AT?

Kizomba is a mix of Tango and Merengue, yes?

Nail in coffin:

If you agree that Kizomba is more technical than Salsa, Salsa dancers will laugh at you. If you disagree you lose your argument because Kizomba has those same elements you're claiming win your argument.

Kizomba is quite accessible so it seems. Perhaps it's the culture and not the dance.

 

[vit]

The question is and was never about one dance being better than other. That is a strawman argument. The question is whether learning curve in AT is steeper than in Salsa to reach same level of proficiency. Or to put it in other words - take 100 dancers. Teach them salsa once a week and AT once a week. After say 20 weeks, can you compare their proficiency in each dance. There might be outliers who will be much better in one than the other. A significant number will be more at ease dancing one than the other.

Well, teaching methods in various dances are different, so learning curves have different shapes. So I agree that after a certain period of time, salsa dancer can dance a number of moves, while progression of AT dancer isn't as obvious, as he was learning how to walk, transfer weight etc at that time ... however, I'm not measuring the quality of the dancer by the number of moves, but by the quality of his movement, so using that criteria, AT dancer could be even better

Also, as Azzey said, there are other things here that I already mentioned in some other threads when compared salsa and social ballroom scene in my area. In salsa, we have much better teachers. People are younger. They are dancing much more frequently. Many girls have some dancing background. Music is more challenging. Dance is more challenging etc ... so people at salsa are progressing faster, while at social ballroom (in my area) I could say they are actually regressing ....

Regarding line of dance you mentioned, it exists also in most ballroom dances. Ability to move along it and avoid other couples is called floorcraft in ballroom. However, in cross body salsa (and some other dances) we have slots - it's not much different, just it's a line of dance packed at the same place, instead of being developed along the room. It's just a different traffic regulation

 

[azzey]

Well, teaching methods in various dances are different, so learning curves have different shapes. So I agree that after a certain period of time, salsa dancer can dance a number of moves, while progression of AT dancer isn't as obvious, as he was learning how to walk, transfer weight etc at that time ... however, I'm not measuring the quality of the dancer by the number of moves, but by the quality of his movement, so using that criteria, AT dancer could be even better

Yes I agree. If you looked at quality of fundamentals after the same time period your average AT dancer would likely be better than the average Salsa dancer, unless the Salsa teacher in question focused mainly on fundamentals also. It really depends on the teacher and how much basic training the local students are willing to sit through.

 

[Smejmoon]

We are talking about an average dancer. All things being equal, an average dancer is much more likely to have fun at Salsa sooner than at AT.

Talking about average tango dancer. What do they do in your area? Over here in a few milongas I've seen, average tango dancer will sit at the table, drink red wine and look bored. When I was grooving solo, I felt inappropriate, but music was nice, so I did not care.

Is it like that in other places too, where average tango dancer actually won't dance for most of the night? In salsa it seems people dance half the songs or more. And those who like to drink not dance, will have fun with like minded.

This is not about dance, but culture around it. I see some dances are more classes oriented and actual dancing is monthly with shows in between. There are salsa schools who think that's what salsa is about too.

 

[sweavo]

Over here in a few milongas I've seen, average tango dancer will sit at the table, drink red wine and look bored. When I was grooving solo, I felt inappropriate, but music was nice, so I did not care.

They have possibly been instructed to do this. At the AT classes I attended in 2004 we were told about the etiquette of asking for, and being asked to, dance. It involved a lot of sitting and looking bored, attempted eye contact, and continuing to look bored. All for what seemed like pretty good reasons actually.

 

[azzey]

There's also the 3 dance rule. Where you dance 3 dances in a row with the same partner.

Tango etiquette is similar but different to Salsa etiquette.

http://www.tangoconcepts.com/etiquette.html