Salsa leaders - your golden rules

Fault, I hate using the term fault when dancing, maybe miscommunication, but really it's like kissing, or in the x-rated version sex. There is no such thing as screwing up, granted you may be doing something someone doesn't like, but I would hardly say that blame should be given.

My number one rule for Leaders(and Followers incidently) is to be aware of who you are dancing with. If you are dancing with a follower who can't follow a cross-body lead the way you know how to lead it then adjust your lead to what she can do.

If you are dancing with a follow who adds a spin extra onto the spins that you give then either stop her or spin her another time.

In any situation always remember that "It's just dancing"
 
peachexploration said:
I see what you're saying AndrewD. But I also thinks it's partly the instructor's fault. Especially when they're doing as what you're saying: 'Counting steps and calling moves of a routine...'

I really wish instructors would use the cause and effect method rather than just teaching the moves. More like 'when you feel pressure here, it indicates direction or pressure to go there', etc....

I think that would help other problems such as backleading. ;)
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Looking back – I see that my post read as mean and nasty (think I was in a bad mood).

I guess I was trying to say is that things like this put guys in a horrible situation – you’re dancing with someone who by virtue of the class they are taking should be able to do (as a minimum) an inside turn and outside turn and a CBL, but because of their footwork can’t.

What do I do?
Go right back to basics which they might see as an insult?
Muddle through an off-time and ugly dance?
Up the strength of my lead and force them through a dance that is ugly and still mostly off rhythm?
Start telling them their footwork is wrong, counting steps, ‘instructing’ on the dance floor?

So far I’ve muddled through, apologised and taken responsibility for the bad dance (and made a mental note not to ask them again.)

I haven't been exposed to many instructors but thanks to the forum I’ve read about the ‘pattern of the week syndrome’ that permeates the salsa teacher world. I guess this is a commercial reality, your average Joe doesn’t want to spend weeks on technique – they want ‘cool’ moves – if the teacher spent weeks of cold hard technique/theory the casual dancers (who make up most of the revenue and probably drink more booze) will leave. Even a salsanut like me got slightly frustrated when a month ago my teacher said ‘this week, the lesson will solely deal with travelling steps’ – some people left and took a more difficult class.
 
AndrewD said:
peachexploration said:
I see what you're saying AndrewD. But I also thinks it's partly the instructor's fault. Especially when they're doing as what you're saying: 'Counting steps and calling moves of a routine...'

I really wish instructors would use the cause and effect method rather than just teaching the moves. More like 'when you feel pressure here, it indicates direction or pressure to go there', etc....

I think that would help other problems such as backleading. ;)
Click to expand...

Looking back – I see that my post read as mean and nasty (think I was in a bad mood).

I guess I was trying to say is that things like this put guys in a horrible situation – you’re dancing with someone who by virtue of the class they are taking should be able to do (as a minimum) an inside turn and outside turn and a CBL, but because of their footwork can’t.

What do I do?
Go right back to basics which they might see as an insult?
Muddle through an off-time and ugly dance?
Up the strength of my lead and force them through a dance that is ugly and still mostly off rhythm?
Start telling them their footwork is wrong, counting steps, ‘instructing’ on the dance floor?

So far I’ve muddled through, apologised and taken responsibility for the bad dance (and made a mental note not to ask them again.)

I haven't been exposed to many instructors but thanks to the forum I’ve read about the ‘pattern of the week syndrome’ that permeates the salsa teacher world. I guess this is a commercial reality, your average Joe doesn’t want to spend weeks on technique – they want ‘cool’ moves – if the teacher spent weeks of cold hard technique/theory the casual dancers (who make up most of the revenue and probably drink more booze) will leave. Even a salsanut like me got slightly frustrated when a month ago my teacher said ‘this week, the lesson will solely deal with travelling steps’ – some people left and took a more difficult class.
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AndrewD, in a class situation, you don't have much choice but to do the routine as taught by the instructor. If students (leads or follows) are not up to it then have a word with your instructor afterwards.

On the dancefloor, however, you are in control. If your partner can't follow you, then drop the complexity level - that doesn't mean you can't still make the dance interesting. Even when I'm dancing with a first-timer, I still try to make the dance as enjoyable as possible for both of us.

As a leader, you always have to dance to your partner's actual level as opposed to the level she thinks she's at. If she doesn't appreciate that then that's not your problem.
 
Pierre said:
As a leader, you always have to dance to your partner's actual level as opposed to the level she thinks she's at. If she doesn't appreciate that then that's not your problem.
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Thanks for the advice :)
 
AndrewD said:
Pierre said:
As a leader, you always have to dance to your partner's actual level as opposed to the level she thinks she's at. If she doesn't appreciate that then that's not your problem.
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Thanks for the advice :)
Click to expand...

I didn't say it earlier but I couldn't agree with Pierre more - your original post in this thread was one of the most sensible I've read.

All of the points raised I try to keep to BUT I'm not perfect and sometimes the "bored" face comes on.
 
DeeplyDippy said:
AndrewD said:
Pierre said:
As a leader, you always have to dance to your partner's actual level as opposed to the level she thinks she's at. If she doesn't appreciate that then that's not your problem.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice :)
Click to expand...

I didn't say it earlier but I couldn't agree with Pierre more - your original post in this thread was one of the most sensible I've read.

All of the points raised I try to keep to BUT I'm not perfect and sometimes the "bored" face comes on.
Click to expand...

Thanks :)

None of us are perfect and we all have our off days - we are human after all
 
Developing the right body tension and lead is the priority

peachexploration said:
I really wish instructors would use the cause and effect method rather than just teaching the moves. More like 'when you feel pressure here, it indicates direction or pressure to go there', etc....

I think that would help other problems such as backleading. ;)
Click to expand...

We do teach exactly that at Salsapassion in Sydney: The correct leading/following technique, no sequences, students see their real skills (or lack of) immediately(!) while practicing - not only after the class. :D

This fast feedback loop ensures maximum learning speed after a somewhat slower start (patterns "feel" easier for most while leading/following can take a little while). 8)

Having not only 10+ years of Salsa experience but also a good or strong Argentine Tango background - like all our instructors -does help.
[Argentine Tango is pure improvisation via 100% leading and following as there is no basic step. ;)]

-klaus
 
Fantastic, Salsapassion! If I were near your classes, I'd sign up in a heartbeat. To me, they way you teach is the most effective. Not only does it produce a good dancer but it gives the dancer "foundation". Once the sturdy foundation is established, you build anything upon it and all will be well. :D
 
The irMax RULE

I didn't bother reading this whole thread but I wish to submit my golden rule.

Ahem... Ahem...

Any ounce of disrespect or eyes rolling and she shall receive the "Mind Eraser" open shine.

:shock:Twilight Zone Theme Music:shock:
 
when leading the lady

I would say that most of the time people at salsa venues are generally friendly but what I can't stand (!) is when may say 'it would be good if you could relax'. I know that I am relaxed, and this usually comes from guys who think they are better than they are and perhaps don't lead as well as they think, and when all doesn't flow they wonder why the woman isn't smiling (also some from guys who think you should be writhing up against them). Just for men out there who say this--it often isn't the case that the lady isn't relaxed, we also have to concentrate, especially if we are not dancing with very experienced leaders.
 
Re: The irMax RULE

irMaxSALSA said:
I didn't bother reading this whole thread but I wish to submit my golden rule.

Ahem... Ahem...

Any ounce of disrespect or eyes rolling and she shall receive the "Mind Eraser" open shine.

:shock:Twilight Zone Theme Music:shock:
Click to expand...

Mind Eraser :lol: :lol: I think that's a beautiful punishment !!

Just on the whose fault is it bit.....
I think it is mostly the leads fault but defintely the followers aswell if we start to backlead/ auto pilot/assume what the leader wants us to do.

That said...there is a guy on the scene here who is quite possibily the clearest lead i've ever had the pleasure of dancing with so far. First time we danced, he definitely does asses your level and always dances to your level - but at the same time, because he is the clearest lead - he can make you do stuff you didn't realise you could do and it doesn't feel scary or rushed or anything. It took me so long to work up the courage to ask him and when I did i was shocked and stunned by his clarity.

So, my point being, that if you are that good a lead, its your fault if the follower messes up, for the rest of us mere mortals, I think we should share the "blame" around a little!
 
"It's always the leader's fault" is to my mind a quick, and somewhat inadequate way of saying

1) sometimes it's the leader's fault, sometimes it's the follower's
2) telling a follow she screwed up is rude and will only ruin her following
3) there are plenty of things a leader can do to work around nearly all followers' faults.
4) by saying "it's always the leader's fault" we can neatly avoid the whole issue of blame, and get on with dancing!


My top tips:

1) accommodate! (you lead the moves, yes, but you adapt to your follower's shape, her stride, her height, how she turns, and her preference for shining or styling)

2) communicate! (don't stare into space the whole dance, say hi, ask her how she's doing! make a connection that's not just physical)

3) interpret(ate)! (listen to the tune, does it make you feel hip-hoppy, jazzy, smooth? Are you dancing under the stars, in a ballroom, in the barrio? Start with simple moves to establish a common language then wait for the music to tell you when to do that triple axle toe loop)

4) dontleadtoolate! (Most moves need you to be ready in your mind 4 beats or so before it happens. If you don't know what you're doing next, then do a basic and give her a smile. This is far better than sudden jerky movements as you realize "oo, I could do a double spin!")
 
Swannie said:
lolita said:
Now that i can lead....

IF SHE'S NOT FOLLOWING PROPERLY BECAUSE SHES TOO BUSY STYLING......punish her !
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Do unto others as you would have done to you :twisted: :buttkick:
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HA HA.. i follow properly and i do take care of my styling and the ammuont of interruption i intorduce in a dance, it depends on the leader;if i don't like him, then he gets alot of interruption. :D

and wut u doing here? GIVE MY PYRAMIDS BACK !!!!
 
lolita said:
HA HA.. i follow properly and i do take care of my styling and the ammuont of interruption i intorduce in a dance, it depends on the leader;if i don't like him, then he gets alot of interruption. :D

and wut u doing here? GIVE MY PYRAMIDS BACK !!!!
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:) A little bit of interruption is good always good (as long as it is done with a cheeky grin) ;) Feisty!

And I'm not there. I visited, I picked up some stuff and some skills, and I came back to rainy old England.
 
HF said:
- Don't overuse it but throw in a double or triple spin now and then - some ladies are waiting for it.
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.... and some are asking for it! LOL

On this question of 'fault,' I think it's a sterile argument. Both partners have responsibilities each to the other and either can screw up. A lead should test the level of a new partner before attempting stuff and adapt to her level. But she is still capable of making mistakes at that level, just as a lead is. And so is a partner whose level you know, from one dance to another. It's a fifty-fifty partnership. I wouldn't have it any other way.

One responsibility each has is to pay attention to their partner!. Now, if a follower fails in that basic responsibility then a lot of things are going to be her fault!

.... and this is where I came in in this thread: if she isn't paying attention, throw in a triple or some other move that demands attention!

There are other responsibilities for followers, as we've discussed recently elsewhere: making hands available; taking the hand presented by the lead; not holding on / not letting go; keeping in time; keeping to the basic (unless otherwise led). These are pretty fundamental, yet quite often followers do not discharge these very basic responsibilities and so I can't agree with Pierre - whom I admire in many ways as a teacher and salsa sage - that it is always the lead's 'fault.'

The bottom line is that if a dance is unsatisfactory for whatever reason, you have the choice of saying something / saying nothing; offering / accepting , or not offering / rejecting a future invitation. I would generally be in the 'try to fix it' camp. But nicely!
 
one not mentioned would be to look down the channel/slot before leading a girl into it to check its clear. also when do drop catches followed by an open break ALWAYS look over your shoulder before leading them forward to check your elbow safely clears their head (to assume makes an a*s out of u and me).
 
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