Salsa leaders - your golden rules

Well, he is doing a lot of back steps in above casino clip ;)
Yes @vit as i believe i’ve said many times on here, in casino the MEN do step back as they are often getting out of the woman’s way or “chasing” her, depending. There is a diamond step the men often do in casino that of course involves back steps. The WOMEN have no need to step back, however.

I thought that was clear, but if not, consider this my clarification.
 

vit

Son Montuno
Yes @vit as i believe i’ve said many times on here, in casino the MEN do step back as they are often getting out of the woman’s way or “chasing” her, depending. There is a diamond step the men often do in casino that of course involves back steps. The WOMEN have no need to step back, however.

I thought that was clear, but if not, consider this my clarification.
It might have been mentioned, not quite sure. However I read several times that casino was optimized by eliminating back steps (ok, let's say follower's back steps) and blah blah, and then in turns out that man can do a lot of consequtive back steps (not just something "back break" alike). So it looks like only follower's part was optimized, which doesn't surprise, as in all his clips he is 10x better then his followers so he doesn't need optimisation ...
 
It might have been mentioned, not quite sure. However I read several times that casino was optimized by eliminating back steps (ok, let's say follower's back steps) and blah blah, and then in turns out that man can do a lot of consequtive back steps (not just something "back break" alike). So it looks like only follower's part was optimized, which doesn't surprise, as in all his clips he is 10x better then his followers so he doesn't need optimisation ...
I don’t see your point? Surely a teacher should be better than most or all of his students, at any rate. To me this is a mark of a good teacher.

Casino is different structurally than son. For example. “Caída” position does not exist in son. There are plenty of examples of the men’s footwork changing from son to casino that allow for “optimization” in that dance. It’s not just the women’s footwork that has been optimized.

On a separate note, I have yet to see a good argument against a continual forward motion for the follower in casino.
 
Let me be more explicit: the comments you made that I quoted are blatantly incorrect or at best misleading. (As has already been pointed out.)
 
Oh really? That’s news to me. What I said was factual, and corroborated by @terence, to boot.

It’s not my problem if nobody on here wants to actually listen to someone with first-hand knowledge, who can speak from personal experience and who has posted videos of herself dancing to back up my claims.

If my comments are misleading to anyone, then it’s likely that they just haven’t been following what I’ve said on here in the last almost 2 years, or they’re just too caught up with their own false or misleading narratives to believe a word I say, despite the fact that I have plenty of credo.

So @DJ Yuca, tell me again how what I said is “blatantly incorrect”, or “at best misleading”?
 
@vit

I don’t see your point? Surely a teacher should be better than most or all of his students, at any rate. To me this is a mark of a good teacher.

Casino is different structurally than son. For example. “Caída” position does not exist in son. There are plenty of examples of the men’s footwork changing from son to casino that allow for “optimization” in that dance. It’s not just the women’s footwork that has been optimized.

On a separate note, I have yet to see a good argument against a continual forward motion for the follower in casino.
Also I’d like to add that there are several members of MCC who have arguably even surpassed Yoel in terms of talent, which suggests that the method is extremely re-producible. Please feel free to search on YouTube “Al son de mi casino - Ramses Sariol”, or “,piotr agassi chajkowski”. They have been able to achieve a level of dancing similar or even surpassing Yoel in just a few years. In this video you can actually see them both dancing.


So again, what exactly is your point?
 
Oh really? That’s news to me. What I said was factual, and corroborated by @terence, to boot.
What you said was corrected by Terence, and you were unable to dispute what he said. Which is precisely my point.

How you can take the propaganda of Yoel, who blatantly has serious issues regarding race, as objective historical research is beyond me. It's obviously nothing more than racist and nationalistic propaganda. Just because he wears a comedy hat doesn't make it ok.
 
What you said was corrected by Terence, and you were unable to dispute what he said. Which is precisely my point.

How you can take the propaganda of Yoel, who blatantly has serious issues regarding race, as objective historical research is beyond me. It's obviously nothing more than racist and nationalistic propaganda. Just because he wears a comedy hat doesn't make it ok.
Aren't they two completely different things? Other than the video clip, what does the knowledge and explanation provided has to do with Yoel? Unless I missed it, I didn't see anywhere claims by Manza, that Yoel is the only source of her research.

Clarification terence added was the intermediate stop called Mambo that lead to the evolution of today's so called Salsa, from fusion of son based music/dance and other swing influenced dances. To me it doesn't negate what the poster originally wrote.

Neither did terence seem dispute that Casino is not salsa.
 
What you said was corrected by Terence, and you were unable to dispute what he said. Which is precisely my point.

How you can take the propaganda of Yoel, who blatantly has serious issues regarding race, as objective historical research is beyond me. It's obviously nothing more than racist and nationalistic propaganda. Just because he wears a comedy hat doesn't make it ok.
Actually @terence confirmed most of what I wrote and added one detail I forgot.

What about what Yoel says is propaganda? How do you know better than he does? You even admitted to me not long ago you were no expert on son and casino. If he’s so racist, how do you explain these videos below of him dancing with and giving classes to blacks? The “comedy hat” you refer to is actually a style of hat from that was very popular in the 1920’s and 30’s in Cuba. They were also popular outside Cuba, originally they were called Venetian hats, I believe. Feel free to look it up. I simply can’t recognize anything racist. If you think nationalism is a bad thing, however, I feel bad for you and for your country, since you’re clearly not a patriot.

 
Salsa (on1, on 2) is a fusion of American West Coast Swing danced to Cuban music
I'm sure we all understand basic English. The above clearly states that salsa is a fusion of 2 things: 'West Coast Swing danced to Cuban music'. Is W coast swing an influence on salsa dance? Yes. Does that mean it is the only dance influence, or the only significant dance influence? Obviously not. That statement is blatantly false.

In reality salsa dance comes from the mambo era, US mambo being a dance largely created in the US (mostly NY) albeit with influences from Cuban son (and probably other Cuban dances), W coast and E coast swing, lindyhop and quite probably other US and/or Latin dances. As mambo turned to salsa it's possible the Cuban influences on the dance increased, and from the early 70s salsa dance also began to take a lot of influence from hustle (although not all dancers had nor have a hustle influence).

Cuban music (originally called Son, but has been re-branded outside of Cuba as “salsa.”)
This old classic.

rebrand

to change or update the image of (an organization or product)

You have clearly stated that the salsa music of NY from the 70s to the present day is of little to no difference to son cubano. I listen to a lot of son cubano - it can be great music (and is clearly the musical basis of salsa). But the same or almost the same as NY salsa? All aural evidence suggests otherwise.

Salsa started in the late 60s, and was a progressive form of music. (Like most progressive music, it took a lot from the past.) I know plenty of Cuban sons from the 50s that are a root of salsa (just like NY mambo
is a root of salsa). But son cubano from the late 60s onwards that has the progressive sound (for the time) of NY salsa? I'd love to hear it.

What about what Yoel says is propaganda? How do you know better than he does? You even admitted to me not long ago you were no expert on son and casino.
I just look at the evidence. Film from back in the day plus interviews from anyone who was there. Compare any video of W coast swing to old school mambo or salsa (or new school salsa for that matter) and you will see that the former was just one influence amongst many. Likewise read the interviews with dancers and W coast swing does not get much mention.

If he’s so racist, how do you explain these videos below of him dancing with and giving classes to blacks?
That argument is too facile to be worthy of response.

If you think nationalism is a bad thing, however, I feel bad for you and for your country, since you’re clearly not a patriot.
One thing my country is not short of is patriots and patriotism. It hasn't helped us much though - in fact, it's helped the powers that be to distract the population from the real problems and focus on scapegoats.
 
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I would like to add that the whole Cuba v NY debate is misleading. From the early 40s or earlier, Afro-Cuban music in NY and Afro-Cuban music made in Cuba diverged, with many innovations made in NY, initially by Cubans but soon joined by Puerto Ricans and others from a variety of races. The 2 forms of Afro-Cuban music influenced each other. NY musicians went to Cuba, NY records were imported to Cuba and US mambo dancers visited Cuba. By the 50s many - maybe the majority - of the best Cuban musicians had settled in the US. Some amazing artists stayed in Cuba, and of those many visited NY. Why wouldn't they? It was mutually beneficial for the musicians of both countries to enjoy the musical developments in both countries. To view the exchange of ideas as purely going from Cuba to NY is wrong.

When the revolution came along all that changed of course. Contemporary Cuban music of the 60s onwards lost its great influence on NY Afro-Cuban music - not because it was prohibited in the US but because the Cuban music scene at that time had moved to other forms of music (Cuban rock, songo, Cuban funk etc) that simply weren't to NY tastes.

So to say that salsa was merely copying music made in Cuba ignores at least 3 decades of innovation of Afro-Cuban music in NY that formed the basis of the salsa scene. Plus the fact that Cuban music from the late 60s onwards generally had little similarity to what we call salsa.

If the above reads as if it is trying to diminish the role of Afro-Cuban music in salsa: nothing could be further from the truth. Salsa is son, New York style. And son New York style is a lot more than a copy of anything.
 
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I take no issue with exchange of ideas. I know that there are plenty of Cuban musicians that inspired “salsa” in new York in the 60’s and later, and vice versa. Not once did I ever express an issue with this.

However, there are many songs from cuba that were re-recorded by these NY musicians decades later and then referred to as salsa with no acknowledgment that those songs were purely remakes of old Cuban music, so that is what i have a problem with. this is what i have always said. I’ve never changed my story here.

NY style “salsa”, based on my listening experience, differs from Cuban son mainly nowadays in terms of the theme and lyrics of the songs. “Salsa” is often about love, heartbreak, desperation, etc. Cuban music rarely, if ever, revolves around those themes. For me it’s one of the easiest ways to tell, without knowing the band or anything else, whether the song is a Cuban artist or Puerto Rican/NY.
 

azana

Super Moderator
Staff member
Apologies for the interference, but can I ask us all to please leave off the current debate, as I can’t see it moving in a consensus driven direction. If we could get back to the main questions posed by the thread and keep it nice, that would be great.

Thank you.
 
I can’t see it moving in a consensus driven direction.
We reach consensus on SF? jeje.

I've already posted a few of my golden rules... but another one is that I like to get to know each follower individually. Some followers like a relaxed style without too many complicated patterns, they like the space to dance and add things themselves. Other followers don't want that space, because they don't normally know what to do with it. So they want me to 'fill up time' with as many fun and challenging patterns as possible.

So I dance differently with different followers.
 
but another one is that I like to get to know each follower individually.
I was like hmm how do you do that and what has that got to do with dancing :) then...

Some followers like a relaxed style without too many complicated patterns, they like the space to dance and add things themselves. Other followers don't want that space, because they don't normally know what to do with it. So they want me to 'fill up time' with as many fun and challenging patterns as possible.
Ah that!!

Usually takes about 30 seconds unless the follower is a chameleon.
 

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