Leader's blacklist

[1derpalm]

Just an observation.. But it seems like the leader is always at fault and the follow is always justified for walking away without explanation. I assume the same goes for leaders as well (not a personal attack, just the most conveniently placed post).

Remember that clip of Terry and Amelie where many thought she was angry at him for not dancing with her but only doing his shines? People also thought she was right to be angry. Of course we have no idea what actually went on between them but the point is that there is such a situation where a follower would justifiably feel angry and in her right to end the dance. Imagine it wasn't Amelie but an inexperienced dancer afraid to do shines. Also imagine it wasn't Terry but a regular dancer. In this case it is not necessary to shine for half a song - much less is enough to make the follower feel angry/humiliated. Nobody should be made to feel humiliated on the dance floor.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Never had a follower walk off on me nor have you walked off on one...I have ended a dance mutually because we felt the music wasn't working but we grabbed the next song. The only time I ever turned down a dance was when I didn't like the Bachata. I asked to postpone for the next Salsa song but she wasn't around when Salsa came back on. Now I try to look clear when anything other than Salsa is on that I'm "off-duty" to not offend anyone.

In 12 years dancing, it has never happened to me either. I think adjusting to the level of your partner plays a big role.

Ok, once a follower told me 'I can' t dance with you' because of a style mismatch (she danced Cuban/me Linear) and walked off but I wasn't offended. I literally forgot about it until now. Should I have been offended? I would have been willing to stick it out but she obviously didn't want to and we mutually ended it.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Just an observation.. But it seems like the leader is always at fault and the follow is always justified for walking away without explanation. I assume the same goes for leaders as well (not a personal attack, just the most conveniently placed post).

If the follower has a good reason, then fine. If she simply walks off without saying a word, that's weird, albeit hilarious. Over time, you get used to Salsa etiquette and walking off the dance floor is a gross breach of etiquette. At this point, it wouldn't affect me unless it is someone I know. Otherwise, it's fair game.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

We hear with regularity how much leads hate it when a follow that likes the individual expressiveness of the dance spends too much time trying to look good. If we aren't 'big' enough leads to enable that for our follows, I don't see why us leads should get upset when a newbie follow decides to stop dancing with you because she doesn't like feeling very mismatched. And yes we do dance a gendered dance. Its our job to match with our follows. Think of it from the newbie perspective. Someone asks you to dance. you tell him that you're new, especially because you saw him dance before and you didn't think he'd be a good match. He hears this, then proceeds to do his thing disregarding you.

I mean walking off mid dance is pretty rude but I totally see where she is coming from.

At the end of the day, no big deal. dance on.

This is pretty much the same thing that I was thinking.

If I am a dancing with an inexperienced follow, especially with one who I've never danced with, then I immediately tone down the show-off factor.

I am a show off sometimes, but I like to think I am showing off at the right moments, with followers who are equally capable of giving back to me.

If I am showing off to a beginner or someone who isn't experienced, then I'm also breaching etiquette by doing something inconsiderate. 99% of followers won't walk off because they are too scared to, but I also wouldn't hold it against them should they decide to. That's my own fault for being so ill-aware of the situation.

 

[LatinoBK]

I actually dance with well known followers only, people that I danced before.
I am 100% booked for the whole night and can learn new moves in private with my followers and practice at party.
This is the best for me. Don't have to deal with rejections and can dance at mid-advanced level with any of my partners.
Also I will never ask again a follower that rejected me in the past for whatever reason.

 

[dwkfym]

Also I will never ask again a follower that rejected me in the past for whatever reason.

I don't know how people get good at salsa with this much ego fragility, but it might be different in other cities. shrug

maybe im being a hypocrite though. if someone says no, just by the rules of chance, i am definitely less likely to ask that follow again. but I do this because I don't want to be presumptuous and keep asking a girl that really doesn't want to dance with me.

 

[Smejmoon]

I don't know how people get good at salsa with this much ego fragility, but it might be different in other cities. shrug

I think they don't get good; or it's similar to performers, who have asymmetric skillset. I've witnessed several such encapsulated groups over years. Very few of them can dance outside the circle. Friendship over dance. Fine choice.

 

[Smejmoon]

I think they don't get good; or it's similar to performers, who have asymmetric skillset. I've witnessed several such encapsulated groups over years. Very few of them can dance outside the circle. Friendship over dance. Fine choice.

Thinking about that more, it depends on group size and dedication. I know one dance school that had inner circles within inner circles. People danced with each other and took classes for years. They didn't develop good dancers. But once they grew to size of about hundred, good dancers started to pop up. Part of it is probably talent, but I think some critical mass is needed.

Also it's probably reinforcing. If you've spent years and figured out how to dance with few people, you don't feel comfortable with others. So you tend to dance more with the same. You develop better connection with them. Desire to go out decreases even more.

Some people just dance most of their dances with their significant other.

 

[dermont]

I don't know how people get good at salsa with this much ego fragility, but it might be different in other cities. shrug

maybe im being a hypocrite though. if someone says no, just by the rules of chance, i am definitely less likely to ask that follow again. but I do this because I don't want to be presumptuous and keep asking a girl that really doesn't want to dance with me.

I have a very clear three-part rule of thumb:
1. I don't ask a follower that has refused a dance again at the same event.
2. If a follower has rejected a dance twice (on different events) without giving a good reason, I don't ask them ever again.
3. If a follower has rejected a dance three times (on different events, rejections are in a row), I don't ask them ever again.

3 has actually never happened to me, but 1 and 2 have.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

I don't know how people get good at salsa with this much ego fragility, but it might be different in other cities. shrug

Short answer. You don't.

Long answer. You progress, but not as fast. If you are a leader in a follower heavy scene, you will get many dances and won't have to ever worry about not having enough dances. You will get better based on numbers alone. I have psychological limits too. I would still choose dancing with 20 known followers than 20 unknown ones. When I dance the majority with unknown people, it is a heck of a lot more stressful than dancing with people I know. However, you can level up faster dancing with a bunch of really good unknown people in a shorter amount of time. But my default setting will always be to seek out people I know.

If I had a shark mentality, I am positive I'd be a much more in demand dancer. True story: a friend of mine used to drag me to the front of every congress where all the good dancers were and say to me "you belong here". That's the type of push I need, but I just don't really care about it enough to do it consistently on my own.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

I have a very clear three-part rule of thumb:
1. I don't ask a follower that has refused a dance again at the same event.
2. If a follower has rejected a dance twice (on different events) without giving a good reason, I don't ask them ever again.
3. If a follower has rejected a dance three times (on different events, rejections are in a row), I don't ask them ever again.

The way I see it, I will stop asking after one rejection if no reason is given, but then I'd expect the same treatment if I reject someone. It's now up to me to ask them to dance.

It's more important that I don't hold any grudges. Someone could hypothetically reject me an unlimited number of times but once they ask me, I won't reject.

 

[LatinoBK]

Thinking about that more, it depends on group size and dedication. I know one dance school that had inner circles within inner circles. People danced with each other and took classes for years. They didn't develop good dancers. But once they grew to size of about hundred, good dancers started to pop up. Part of it is probably talent, but I think some critical mass is needed.

Also it's probably reinforcing. If you've spent years and figured out how to dance with few people, you don't feel comfortable with others. So you tend to dance more with the same. You develop better connection with them. Desire to go out decreases even more.

Some people just dance most of their dances with their significant other.

I don't know how people get good at salsa with this much ego fragility, but it might be different in other cities. shrug

maybe im being a hypocrite though. if someone says no, just by the rules of chance, i am definitely less likely to ask that follow again. but I do this because I don't want to be presumptuous and keep asking a girl that really doesn't want to dance with me.

I was many years on a social mode and danced with everyone from beginners to advanced incl stars. I have an inner circle of good followers and can dance every move I want as close as I want incl kizomba and bachata.
Tried last weeks to go back to social mode and didnt have as much fun as I have with my usual followers. I can try and learn new moves at home go to party and improve skills this way. They also can give me a feedback.

Back to rejections as I said before ask one time and never ask again later. I tried with two or three followers and got rejected again at different times. One more reason to stick with my group of followers.

 

[dwkfym]

I think there is some introspection you need about yourself or your dancing if you get rejected regularly / get rejected as soon as you step out of your comfort zone. Within my own scene in my city where people have seen me, its actually not that bad with rejections (and my city is known to have lots of *****y girls stuck deep in teams, though that is probably a defense mechanism because of the guys here). My guess is that your dancing ability is not as good as you assess, since only a select group of follows are able to follow you properly. You might have elements of your dancing that is very good, but your social dancing ability (which is akin to just simple, dancing ability, in the world of social dancing) is probably not quite there yet. the only way to get better at this, is to keep dancing with more people. by the way, it is definitely possible to regress and start getting worse, especially if you keep dancing with the same people.


Obviously I'm just speculating. Apologies if my assessment is off.

 

[LatinoBK]

That's not the case to me. As I said before I danced with everyone with no issues before.
My actual gf is not comfortable to let me dance with everyone. Dancing in our inner circle is fine for her. I don't have any issue with that, learn new moves at home and try at party. My rejection rate is close to 0%

 

[dwkfym]

That's not the case to me. As I said before I danced with everyone with no issues before.
My actual gf is not comfortable to let me dance with everyone. Dancing in our inner circle is fine for her. I don't have any issue with that, learn new moves at home and try at party. My rejection rate is close to 0%

I believe you, but also implore you to think about it for a moment. Most people WILL regress in their skill dancing in a closed sphere. I've seen this happen to people who win world championships. Fortunately it seems to all come back quickly when they change it up. Sorry about your GF not letting you dance with others, but I'm glad you have a crew you can dance with, at least. We all gotta make sacrifices in our dancing for other parts of our lives, particularly for our loved ones.

 

[Mr Setenta]

it is definitely possible to regress and start getting worse

My biggest fear.
What if I regress back to enchufala doble being my killer move.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

I believe you, but also implore you to think about it for a moment. Most people WILL regress in their skill dancing in a closed sphere. I've seen this happen to people who win world championships. Fortunately it seems to all come back quickly when they change it up. Sorry about your GF not letting you dance with others, but I'm glad you have a crew you can dance with, at least. We all gotta make sacrifices in our dancing for other parts of our lives, particularly for our loved ones.

The regression will be minimal especially if one keeps social dancing regularly. Let's say you have an inner circle of about 10 good/great followers. That's enough to keep you busy if you dance 2-3 times a night with each follower. You won't feel like you're missing that much.

Then when you dance with people you don't know and things don't go your way, you understandably won't have as great a time dancing. If the point is to maximize enjoyment, then I don't care if people dance with a small subgroup of people as long as those people also don't reject dances with people they don't consider part of their inner circle.

World champion dancers spend most of their time training in a studio, not social dancing, so I would expect some level of regression but they would still be considered top tier talent, high in demand dancers. Also, social dancing wouldn't be their top priority if they are looking to build an image around performance/competition. Social dancing doesn't carry as much prestige as 'World Champion' or even 5th place finalist. Social dancing for performers/competitors are side gigs.

The level of regression they experience isn't really enough to justify them taking an 'introspective look' within themselves. Performers/competitors are passionate about their craft, willing to take their bodies to the limit and are honestly much more motivated than social dancers on average. It's easy for us to say that they are misguided or 'missing' something, but most of them couldn't care less about what we social dancers think. (This is coming from someone who absolutely despises performance culture in Salsa)

I still think social dancers will last longer in the scene, especially those who dance with pure enjoyment for Salsa music, but it's a completely different mindset than the performer/competitor. I can still admire the odd competitor/performer and get inspired to train a lot harder myself, but I won't be abandoning social dancing for it.

 

[Smiley79]

Going to a lot of socials starting tomorrow night all the way into New year's day so it'll be interesting just to see. I can easily say that I will either disappear when something other than salsa comes on or I will have to politely decline the saying I only know salsa

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Going to a lot of socials starting tomorrow night all the way into New year's day so it'll be interesting just to see. I can easily say that I will either disappear when something other than salsa comes on or I will have to politely decline the saying I only know salsa

Lucky you have events leading up to New Year. It's like a barren wasteland over here. Nothing happening till after New Year's. Europe (or some parts of it) is shut down.

In my former scene, we had tons of events leading up to New Year's, including an annual boxing day social on the 26th and usually weekly events were still going as scheduled.

 

[vit]

World champion dancers spend most of their time training in a studio, not social dancing, so I would expect some level of regression but they would still be considered top tier talent, high in demand dancers.

Sorry, this doesn't make much sense. You don't close yourself in a studio, do a lot of training (and regress at the same time) and become a world champion

Competitive/performance dancing is definitively not dancing in closed sphere (like you and your partner doing some dancing at home). You will indeed spend a lot of time in training, which will obviously be in some kind of studio. However, in order to do that, you really need to like the dance with your partner - being driven only by success that may or may not come in most cases isn't enough - there is only 1 winner and most people end ranked considerably lower, so being 584th in the world or country isn't really enough for motivation. So in dance studio, there will be other dancers around, and most important, there will be trainers around that will help you in your dancing "regression". Not only that, you will travel around to get some privates from other trainers and meet other people dancing. And on competitions, you will be dancing with/against other competitors, your dancing will be observed and ranked by the judges and other observers. Actually, not that different than social dancing where you are judged by your potential followers and leaders, if you are an instructor by your current and potential students, and if it gets recorded, by youtube watchers ...

Most difference is that you don't exchange your partner with other people ... except if you participate in performances as a part of the group when there is usually also some partner exchange ...

In social dancing, a big part of the skills you get is dancing with various partners (whether better or worse than you) and getting ability to accommodate to various levels, so set of skills is a bit different, but if you perform in the group, you also need that, just that differences in the skill level usually aren't that big ... and competitors usually need to teach as well, to cover part of huge costs spent on competitions/training, so they need to be able to dance with beginners as well ...