It's Life!

[Salsa Bear]

Maybe... But it's not the same journey for everyone because we start at different places.

Of course, it's not the same journey. But I've been told time and again that MOST men do go through "Beginner's Hell" - and it really isn't that hard to explain it tactfully:

I'm glad you all decided to check out Salsa, and I hope you have a fun experience. Before we jump in, there are a few unpleasnt things we should get out of the way. The first one is HYGIENE. You're going to be in close contact with other people, so don't make your first impression a bad one. I've got breath mints over here for anyone who needs them!

Second thing - PRACTICE! You can't get good at Salsa without practicing, so start hitting some clubs or socials!

Last thing - I don't want to scare you away - especially after you've already paid me for Salsa 101 class - but don't let anyone tell you Salsa is easy. It might be easy for some people - particularly people who already have a dance background. But it can be very grueling. It's especially hard for men, most of whom go through a period popularly known as 'Beginner's Hell.'

Beginner's Hell can easily last six months or more. To put it in perspective, Salsa has a retention rate of less than 5%. People quit for many reasons, not all of them bad. But if you decide to stick with it, you'll have to take the bad with the good. Don't be afraid to talk to me if you need advice or encouragement.

Now, let's dance Salsa!"

Such a conversation wouldn't take that long and would be really considerate, in my opinion. In fact, many dance instructors do mention hygiene (not the most pleasant topic), and most also mention the importance of practice. Some of my favorite instructors also talk a little about the origins of Salsa, Salsa culture, etc.

So adding a couple brief paragraphs about Beginner's Hell would only take a few seconds.

I typed "Beginner's Hell" + Salsa into Google and got 500 hits. To my delight, I discovered that one of my favorite Salsa teachers DOES talk about Beginner's Hell - Edie The Salsa Freak!

http://www.salsastories.com/stories_a-b/beginners_hell.html

(Her article is strikingly similar to the one I'm working on, though she has many insights I lack, of course.)

A similar article is offered by Addicted2Salsa:

http://addicted2salsa.com/dance/the-famous-salsa-hell-dance-graph/

If you tell most guys that they will have a tough time for a year or more, most don't do it.

So what? Most guys don't stick with it, anyway. And if you mention it on the first day of class - AFTER they've already paid - they'll probably at least finish out that class, especially if you mention it tactfully and offer your support and guidance.

I can't tell dance teachers how to do their job, but I can tell them what I like and don't like, and I greatly respect Salsa instructors who offer more than a few quick moves. I LOVE learning about Salsa culture. I LOVE being told about the importance of practice. And I would LOVE a teacher who told us the simple truth about Salsa and let the students make an informed decision.

 

[SnowDancer]

I've come to feel that Salsa instructors do their students a disservice by not warning them of some of the pitfalls that lie ahead.

Probably for the same reason that a ski or snowboard instructor won't warn you about all the expensive equipment you'll need to buy and all the ways you can fall and injure yourself.

They're trying to keep customers, not scare them away!

But I agree that they should teach about club etiquette and how to ask for dances. Eddie TSF does that, but she's the only one as far as my experience goes.

 

[SnowDancer]

Totally agreed. I've seen lots of guys who don't go through beginners hell, they are having fun right from the beginning and they enjoy the journey at all levels.

I hate those guys! Well, maybe it's more like envy!

Fortunately, some of us enjoy the challenge of something that seems difficult. I've also noticed that some of those guys who start out pretty good and have lots of confidence also get bored and quit after several months (or after they find a girlfriend).

 

[UnlikelySalsero]

Of course, it's not the same journey. But I've been told time and again that MOST men do go through "Beginner's Hell" - and it really isn't that hard to explain it tactfully:



Such a conversation wouldn't take that long and would be really considerate, in my opinion. In fact, many dance instructors do mention hygiene (not the most pleasant topic), and most also mention the importance of practice. Some of my favorite instructors also talk a little about the origins of Salsa, Salsa culture, etc.

So adding a couple brief paragraphs about Beginner's Hell would only take a few seconds.

I typed "Beginner's Hell" + Salsa into Google and got 500 hits. To my delight, I discovered that one of my favorite Salsa teachers DOES talk about Beginner's Hell - Edie The Salsa Freak!

http://www.salsastories.com/stories_a-b/beginners_hell.html

<snip>

So what? Most guys don't stick with it, anyway. And if you mention it on the first day of class - AFTER they've already paid - they'll probably at least finish out that class, especially if you mention it tactfully and offer your support and guidance.

I can't tell dance teachers how to do their job, but I can tell them what I like and don't like, and I greatly respect Salsa instructors who offer more than a few quick moves. <snip>

I think it's great you express your opinion and tell instructors what you like/dislike. I know I appreciate when people give me their point of view.

When you start teaching you'll find others don't always respond the same way you do. It gets real interesting when the things I liked/disliked are the exact opposite for one of my students. I deal with it now, but that's after years of teaching experience. (I taught music/drums long before dance.)

Just the fact that you discuss dance in this forum tells us you are NOT the "normal" dancer/student. People who go online to read about dance are different than most dancers.

I'll make a wild guess that many would consider you more analytical than most of your peers. NOTHING wrong with that! (Most consider me that way... I love breaking things down to their smaller parts.)

A few other thoughts:

I have taught at least a couple dozen 16-hour bootcamps with Edie TSF, plus countless short classes. We were friends before she ever danced so we have had plenty of discussions over 20 years.

She does talk about beginners hell, but I don't remember her talking about it in "regular" drop-in or series classes, until people were down the road a bit.

Bootcamps are different, and there she will bring up the topic SOMETIMES... People have hours with her, and that subject may or may not come up.

By the time they are reading her articles, they are generally already hooked. They are hungry for more. Few waste time gathering more info unless they really want to learn. At that point they are ready to hear about both sides of the learning curve and it helps to hear where others got stuck.

I'm assuming you are doing some teaching, and you'll get a chance to road test your theories.

Please report back with your results. In my experience your theory doesn't work with the majority of people, but how you deliver it will make all the difference. You may find a way to do it that is outside my current experience, and I'm happy to learn from your results.

I HAVE discussed this with individuals in classes. Some guys need that discussion, many do not.

I'm always on the lookout for ways to improve my teaching, so let us know how it goes.

 

[Salsa Bear]

robably for the same reason that a ski or snowboard instructor won't warn you about all the expensive equipment you'll need to buy and all the ways you can fall and injure yourself.

They're trying to keep customers, not scare them away!

EXACTLY. It's all about business, which is understandable yet a little selfish at the same time. I also think it's a little illogical. Since your students have already paid for the first class, what have you got to lose?

Of course, you want them to take the next class, but I'd venture to guess that the majority who are going to drop out will do so after that first class. Sill, you'll likely lose some naive students who might have otherwise been suckered into signing up for Salsa 201.

On the other hand, some students might appreciate a teacher who cares enough about them to offer a little guidance.

But I agree that they should teach about club etiquette and how to ask for dances. Eddie TSF does that, but she's the only one as far as my experience goes.

Edie's an amazing lady.

 

[Salsa Bear]

I'm assuming you are doing some teaching, and you'll get a chance to road test your theories.

After reading my posts - which include the concession that I'm struggling with "Beginner's Hell" - you assume I'm doing some teaching???

Wow.

No, I'm not qualified to teach Salsa. That is, I'm not qualified to tell people which foot to put in front of the other.

I do pride myself on having common sense, and I don't think it would take some spectacular road test to prove the worthiness of my "theory" that maybe Salsa instructors should be a little more honest with their students.

Of course, I have no way of knowing exactly what the results would be. It's possible that most students wouldn't benefit from the extra fifteen seconds it takes to mention the simple fact that they've got a long, tough road ahead of them.

But, in my opinion, it would be worth it if even 5% of the students benefited. I certainly don't see how it could hurt anyone - except the instructor. If any students decide to drop out after receiving the information that allows them to make an informed decision, then the Salsa instructor could be out a little money.

And since most dance teachers struggle to make a living (like the rest of us), I can understand why they would be reluctant to burst a naive student's bubble.

 

[SalsaGipsy]

But, in my opinion, it would be worth it if even 5% of the students benefited. I certainly don't see how it could hurt anyone.

If you scare off people who might have otherwise enjoyed salsa for longer - wouldn't that qualify as hurting their interests??

If any students decide to drop out after receiving the information that allows them to make an informed decision, then the Salsa instructor could be out a little money.

That's not at all what I call an informed decision. Informed decision is when you go through your own experience and then decide you want to quit. Because then you will know exactly how difficult it is and how much you enjoy it - so you can ballance these two and decide if it's worth it or not.

 

[Salsa Bear]

If you scare off people who might have otherwise enjoyed salsa for longer - wouldn't that qualify as hurting their interests??

That doesn't make any sense - unless you're talking about keeping gullible students in class as long as possible before reality finally crashes in on them.

People who like Salsa are going to put up with the various obstacles they encounter. (If I dance with someone who has bad breath some day, I'm not going to suddenly drop out.) People who are turned off by one obstacle or another may choose to drop out.

That's not at all what I call an informed decision. Informed decision is when you go through your own experience and then decide you want to quit. Because then you will know exactly how difficult it is and how much you enjoy it - so you can ballance these two and decide if it's worth it or not.

So if I tell someone the path they're walking on leads to a cliff, I'm doing them a disservice. It's better to let them walk over the cliff, so they can make an informed decision about whether they want to walk over that cliff again?

If you're happy with the fact that you entered the world of Salsa as a naive beginner, and everything worked out for you, fine. But, again, I keep thinking about the overwhelming majority who drop out, and I can't help but wonder if some of them might have STAYED IN had they had a better road map.

Being told bad news doesn't necessarily motivate people to quit. It can help them understand problems they're wrestling with. It can help them avoid disasters (like walking off cliffs).

I'm still in limbo myself, trying to decide whether or not I want to continue. But I'm SO glad I took the time to do a little research and try to understand some of the things I was experiencing. (I'm also trying to figure out why so many people think Salsa's not so pleasant secrets should be a closely guarded secret. I sometimes feel like I'm back in public education.) If no one had told me most guys go through Beginner's Hell, I would have thought myself some sort of freak and probably would have dropped out long ago.

There are still a few things I'm trying to figure out, and if I do figure them out, then it will help me write Plan B.

 

[SalsaGipsy]

That doesn't make any sense - unless you're talking about keeping gullible students in class as long as possible before reality finally crashes in on them.

No, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about giving the people time to see the full picture. And the full picture is unique to everybody. You might or might not go through the "Beginner's Hell", you might or might not discover you like the dance enough, you might or might not have the social support of your fellow students, you might or might get support from your instructor - and all these to a various degree. You end up with a unique path that everybody goes through that is unpredictable.

So if I tell someone the path they're walking on leads to a cliff, I'm doing them a disservice. It's better to let them walk over the cliff, so they can make an informed decision about whether they want to walk over that cliff again?

Who is talking about falling off cliffs here? Don't you think this is a bit of an exageration?

If you're happy with the fact that you entered the world of Salsa as a naive beginner, and everything worked out for you, fine. But, again, I keep thinking about the overwhelming majority who drop out, and I can't help but wonder if some of them might have STAYED IN had they had a better road map.

I don't understand this. You say that you want to help people stick with it and at the same time you don't care if some get scared off at the first lesson before they even give it a try.

Being told bad news doesn't necessarily motivate people to quit. It can help them understand problems they're wrestling with. It can help them avoid disasters (like walking off cliffs).

Being told the bad news (before they even get a glimpse of the good news) can demotivate many. It is much more constructive to be encouraging and supportive if and when the students actually get to that place to help them through.

 

[Salsa Bear]

No, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about giving the people time to see the full picture. And the full picture is unique to everybody. You might or might not go through the "Beginner's Hell"

Simple solution: Just tell students that Salsa isn't easy for MOST people and they MIGHT even experience something called "Beginner's Hell." (Some people on this forum and elsewhere have claimed that MOST people experience it.)

You might or might not discover you like the dance enough.

That's a VERY good point, especially considering that it can take months to figure out if Salsa is your cup of tea. That could motivate some people to stick with it a little longer, if only out of curiosity.

Who is talking about falling off cliffs here? Don't you think this is a bit of an exageration?

Not at all. Many people embrace Salsa because they HAVE fallen off cliffs. They're running away from failed marriages, dead-end jobs, whatever. And some of the things they experience on the dance floor might be more than trivial nuisances in their eyes.

I don't understand this. You say that you want to help people stick with it and at the same time you don't care if some get scared off at the first lesson before they even give it a try.

You're the one who's talking about scaring people off. I'm just suggesting that students should be better informed. Should Salsa instructors not mention hygiene, out of fear that they might scare some customers away?

Being told the bad news (before they even get a glimpse of the good news) can demotivate many. It is much more constructive to be encouraging and supportive if and when the students actually get to that place to help them through.

It depends on how it's told. I can think of one piece of bad news that would have saved me two months and $150.

 

[SalsaGipsy]

I'm just suggesting that students should be better informed. Should Salsa instructors not mention hygiene, out of fear that they might scare some customers away?

I never said anything about hygiene but now that you mention it - isn't this common sense? Even though this topic gets mentioned from time to time, how often do you actually meet people who need to be warned about it. For me in all these years it was 2-3 probably. I wouldn't take extra time to discuss this unless I see it is an issue in the particular class.

 

[Salsa Bear]

I never said anything about hygiene but now that you mention it - isn't this common sense? Even though this topic gets mentioned from time to time, how often do you actually meet people who need to be warned about it. For me in all these years it was 2-3 probably. I wouldn't take extra time to discuss this unless I see it is an issue in the particular class.

It might be common sense for some people, but not for all. Why else would dance instructors even mention it? Why they bother passing out breath mints if students should have enough common sense to bring their own?

There may even be individuals who have that common sense yet don't realize that they have bad breath, etc. Though I wouldn't want the job of informing them, doing so can be a huge favor.

 

[SalsaGipsy]

It might be common sense for some people, but not for all. Why else would dance instructors even mention it? Why they bother passing out breath mints if students should have enough common sense to bring their own?

This is new to me. Anybody actually does that? Is this you instructor?
A lot of people around here use mints or gum - not that they need it though.

 

[Salsa Bear]

This is new to me. Anybody actually does that? Is this you instructor?
A lot of people around here use mints or gum - not that they need it though.

I've seen at least three Salsa instructors make breath fresheners available - Edie The Salsa Freak and two local instructors. Actually, a third local instructor brought some breath fresheners into Edie The Salsa Freak's class; I don't know if she requested them or not.

 

[crazygirl]

Salsa Bear everyones salsa journey is different. It's down to our individual personalities and skill sets whether we are going to experience angst or just love it from day one. I don't see any point at all in spreading doom and gloom about something that brings such joy to many of our lives. Sometimes in life you just have to experience things yourself rather than being told.

Remember that the salsa teachers are just trying to earn money. It's like suggesting that the guy at the bar should warn you the alcohol you're buying may result in drunkiness! You don't want to hear it cos you are just out to have some fun and that is what an evening of salsa is to most beginners. It's only the ones who continue who later realise the work needed to get better and then they will probably find the forums.

 

[Flujo]

What have we got to worry about, really?

Some of the conclusions you can draw from reading the forums are enough to give anyone a panic attack or put someone off for life. Guilty as charged for posting about hangups *holds hands up* but as the saying goes, "A problem shared is a problem halved". Perhaps what would save all the newbies the trouble is a "How To Survive The Social - Enlightenment Edition" that could be handed out at every beginner lesson.

Page one reads:
Welcome to Salsa!
Remember school? It's like that minus the hormones. Now go and enjoy yourself!
The End.

The alternatives? (Going back a gooooood few years here)
I remember going to this rnb/something club years ago and It is so funny looking back at the experience now. Basically everyone stood around the dance floor giving each other evil looks. Literally a line of people around the floor standing there looking at each other like there was some turf war about to kick off. We were standing there thinking what the hell is going on here. Must have been someone's birthday :lol:.

Then there were the oldschool hardcore raves. Fantastic music! Used to spend all night dancing like a complete nutter running on a natural high, which must have been quite rare cos these blokes in coats ("dude aren't you hot in that") used to keep coming up and asking "Do you want any dr*gs?" Uuuuurm :nope:. And what's that funky smell coming from the corner? Oh that would be that shady mob sm*king their ****. At least the people were friendly and would come up to you to give you a hug. "E-asy now fella...yes, I love you too, no really...no really, I do".

There was the jungle rave (notice the singular) where a friend of a friend took time out to demonstrate the removal of his belt, why? In case there was any trouble of course. Riiiiiight :eyebrow:. Then there was the jungle night at this club where for God knows what reason this guy started getting irate and proceeded to curse some woman by calling her a b*tch just before spitting on the floor in her general direction as she walked away; ah that was it, she bumped him while walking by and didn't say sorry. Luckily I managed to talk him down before he got himself thrown out/beat up. Bl**dy madman!

Oh let's not forget about the friend getting glassed cos some nut job thought he was interested in his girl or looked at him the wrong way which is probably the same difference if you are looking for a fight anyway. The places we go when we're young and full of hormones eh. I'm so glad those days are over!

Compared to that lot this is heaven. NOTHING in salsa is really worth worrying about is it, really? Ok you can still get a few knocks if you're not careful but you won't get a b*ttle, a kn*fe, or a g*n in your face. We're all adults and know how to enjoy ourselves in what is 99% of the time a pretty safe environment with a good mix of people. I will take that over the alternatives any day thank you very much.

 

[Salsa Bear]

Wow, some of the best threads I've ever seen on this forum have popped up in just the last few days, notably this thread and a few threads started by CanYouTeachMeSomeMoves. They've really helped the pieces fall in place for me; I've learned a lot, yet I also feel vindicated (especially in light of one recent announcement).

My perception is that there's a major disconnect between more established salser@s and beginners. The former tend to believe there's either no bad news in Salsa, or people shouldn't talk about it. I guess one can't expect instructors to talk about something that might affect their livelihood.

So I guess it's up to a new generation of beginners and bloggers to explore a largely invisible facet of Salsa, not with the intention of scaring people away but to alert new students to the hazards of the road ahead and to help those who drop out anyway take away something positive from their experience.

I'd also like to offer kudo's to Edie The Salsa Freak for tackling such a diversity of topics, including some that aren't so pleasant.

 

[SnowDancer]

I'd also like to offer kudo's to Edie The Salsa Freak for tackling such a diversity of topics, including some that aren't so pleasant.

True. When I started out, I read about a lot of these issues on her site as well as UnlikelySalsero's. There was also good advice in Addicted2Salsa's forums, but I don't think the old ones are around anymore.

 

[KP-salsa]

I never said anything about hygiene but now that you mention it - isn't this common sense? Even though this topic gets mentioned from time to time, how often do you actually meet people who need to be warned about it. For me in all these years it was 2-3 probably. I wouldn't take extra time to discuss this unless I see it is an issue in the particular class.

Breath mints would be the least of your worries, SG, if you knew how many salsa dancers I've seen leaving the gents loo without washing their hands (clue - it's well over 50%)!!!

 

[CT2CA]

That is another "common sense" thing that shocks me. How often I see salseros leave the rest rooms without washing thier hands. It's usually the best dancers that dance with most of the girls that I see doing this too. I guess they are in such a hurry to get more dances in that they don't bother to waste time with hand washing.