It's Life!

[UnlikelySalsero]

<snip>

My perception is that there's a major disconnect between more established salser@s and beginners. The former tend to believe there's either no bad news in Salsa, or people shouldn't talk about it. I guess one can't expect instructors to talk about something that might affect their livelihood.

So I guess it's up to a new generation of beginners and bloggers to explore a largely invisible facet of Salsa, not with the intention of scaring people away but to alert new students to the hazards of the road ahead and to help those who drop out anyway take away something positive from their experience.

I'd also like to offer kudo's to Edie The Salsa Freak for tackling such a diversity of topics, including some that aren't so pleasant.

I see it a little differently.

When you read my articles, I sometimes mention the same issues we are discussing here, including negative issues and how tough it can be learning some things.

That said, I love studying how people have succeeded. Rather than just warning people that some things are difficult, the best also outline the rewards for pushing through the issues and provide potential solutions/ideas to help them find their way to the other side. I've also studied teaching/coaching and accelerated learning techniques for years. (Still do...)

If you feel good telling a new guy that his life will be tough during the first X months of salsa/dancing, go for it.

The question is: Are you just going to tell them your idea of a negative, (because it may or may not be a neg for them), OR are you going to also tell them what you are doing (or others have done) to beat that negative?

A problem without potential solutions is simply whining from my POV.

Edie TSF does discuss neg issues, but she showcases what has worked for her and others to beat those issues.

I'll also be interested in your POV after you grow your dancing another year or two. Hindsight often provides different insights that are not as clear earlier in the process.

Your ideas just as valid as mine, and I respect that you put your views out in public. That's very cool and I like that even if I disagree with some of your conclusions.

 

[Salsa Bear]

I see it a little differently. . . . That said, I love studying how people have succeeded. Rather than just warning people that some things are difficult, the best also outline the rewards for pushing through the issues and provide potential solutions/ideas to help them find their way to the other side.

You don't see things differently at all. I thought I said the same thing in this thread; if not it's certainly in the articles I'm working on.

But it's often difficult to offer solutions without FIRST mentioning the negative. How can I advise someone to take a detour around a cliff without first telling them of the cliff's existence?

Of course, some problems don't have such simple solutions; all you can do is tell people the problem exists and let them cope with it as best they can. For example, let's divide the Salsa obstacle course into two broad categories: Dance and Social.

It's relatively easy to offer solutions for problems in the first arena: Find a good teacher. If that teacher doesn't work, try a different teacher. Take private lessons. Practice as frequently as you can.

But the second category is very complex; even veteran salser@s posting on this forum frequently admit their confusion. Many people complain about cliques. I've read reviews of a number of schools and clubs that say "bring a partner."

It's hard to offer solutions for those kinds of problems, partly because the problems themselves vary greatly between individuals. What about people who already belong to cliques or already have partners? What about people who don't need/want partners?

Like you, I love studying how people succeeded. However, I'm also interested in the 95% or more who don't succeed at Salsa. I'd like to know WHY they dropped out, if only out of curiosity. I'm willing to bet a large percentage were victims of the steep learning curve and/or the social obstacles. If there was some way to get feedback from them, it could help others.

I was feeling like a freak before I learned that MOST guys go through something called "Beginners Hell" and that most Salsa students don't make it through their first year. I'm actually glad I learned about Beginners Hell (a negative), because it answered a lot of previously unanswered questions.

Another thing that fascinates me is Salsa politics - not the Democrat-Repulican-So******t kind of politics (although that fascinates me, too) - but the internal politics. Some dance teachers have told me that my local Salsa community is very divided and is full of "haters."

That's obviously very negative - but I'm glad I've been warned, because it helps me understand certain things. And if you find a problem that can't be solved, at least you can take a detour around it. I've certainly learned which people I don't want to dance with.

 

[Salsa Bear]

That is another "common sense" thing that shocks me. How often I see salseros leave the rest rooms without washing thier hands. It's usually the best dancers that dance with most of the girls that I see doing this too. I guess they are in such a hurry to get more dances in that they don't bother to waste time with hand washing.

Wow, that is kind of sad. After working at a zoo, as a teacher and in the mail industry, I've learned to wash my hands several times a day.

And if breath fresheners are common sense, then why do so many salser@s cite bad breath as a problem on the dance floor?

 

[t0mt0m]

The question is: Are you just going to tell them your idea of a negative, (because it may or may not be a neg for them), OR are you going to also tell them what you are doing (or others have done) to beat that negative?

Hmm, not to add too much pop psych, but it reminds me of Malcolm Gladwell's Blinkg - and the UoW psychologist and marriage counselor John Gottman, who could predict with high accuracy whether a marriage will last or not after observing the couple for only one hour.

For those relations to last they were monitoring the amount of positive and negative emotion, - one of Gottman's findings was that for a marriage to survive, the ratio of positive to negative emotion for a given encounter has to be at least five to one.

Who knows if the figure translates / extrapolates to other areas - but if maybe it could help keeping in mind - it might help beginner salseros not to grumble, but give a whistle. Why do so many drop out? Do guys see value in salsa, but see it outweighed by negatives, or do they see no upside? Is it not attractive enough, or never will be?

Maybe time softens the edges of the learning curve? Not to play devil's advocate too much, but i'm recalling a post by Don about nearly quitting tutelage about the details in music training, then slowly seeing the reward of that by progressing past his peers, but i can't find it, to put in contrast to saying he didn't go through beginner's hell, having fun right from the beginning wrt drumming.

It would be fun to drop some of the more advanced dancers in this thread into some beginner lessons, situations, and conversations - and see if that would bring some insight - maybe some things are forgotten about/ not seen -
an advanced dancer may well not see some issues, or situations beginners go through day to day, due to not interacting with them as much?

 

[bailar y tocar]

Hmm, not to add too much pop psych, but it reminds me of Malcolm Gladwell's Blinkg - and the UoW psychologist and marriage counselor John Gottman, who could predict with high accuracy whether a marriage will last or not after observing the couple for only one hour.

For those relations to last they were monitoring the amount of positive and negative emotion, - one of Gottman's findings was that for a marriage to survive, the ratio of positive to negative emotion for a given encounter has to be at least five to one.

Who knows if the figure translates / extrapolates to other areas -

I don't know that a blog could make that much difference - positively or negatively - but the attitude of other dancers, students, instructors surely would be decisive. People tend to adapt to their surroundings if its a pleasant experience and choose something else if it is not. Why would anyone do anything voluntarily if there is negativity in the room - most people already have to deal with that every day in return for a paycheck - but thats the point there is a P-A-Y-C-H-E-C-K to compensate for the misery.

 

[bailar y tocar]

Another thing that fascinates me is Salsa politics - the internal politics. Some dance teachers have told me that my local Salsa community is very divided and is full of "haters."

That's obviously very negative - but I'm glad I've been warned, because it helps me understand certain things. And if you find a problem that can't be solved, at least you can take a detour around it. I've certainly learned which people I don't want to dance with.

These "internal politics" situations in dance scenes tend to ebb and flow. At times there is fierce competition between dance studios or between club promoters or among band leaders or DJs and then suddenly everyone just gets along. I have seen it happen so may times in my 12+ years in several city salsa scenes that I don't take the spats seriously and I don't take the kumbaya moments for granted.

Btw, the latter happen because a well respected "integrator" person takes over and everyone prefers to cooperate with that person rather than go it alone.

Btw2, that was the one type of person missing in Malcolm Gladwell's Tipping Point description. He had the maven, the connector and the salesperson but missed the integrator.

 

[Salsa Bear]

So really, the salsa scene is no different than anything else in life. It’s just all about common sense.

Another way to put it perspective is to compare Salsa to the National Park Service. The National Park Service uses literature, signs and word of mouth to alert visitors to dangers posed by bears, rattlesnakes, other animals ("Do Not Feed the Animals"), volcanoes, geysers, glaciers, poison ivy, whitewater, water that isn't fit to drink, cliffs, canyons and many other hazards. Yet America's national parks are still overrrun by millions of people, none (that I've ever heard of) who accuse the National Park Service of spreading messages of doom and gloom.

In fact, the National Park Service has probably helped countless visitors survive to visit wilderness reserves another day. (Some may even read "Death in Yellowstone" during their next next trip.)

On a related note, I've just (re)discovered something that may be either more or less intimidating than Salsa - ballroom dancing. I took a beginners drop-in class tonight and was amazed to see a lady who I had already pegged as a ballerina join the class.

She was so graceful, and her body motion and styling trumped just about anything I've ever seen even among my instructors. I asked her where she took classes, and she said she had studied ballroom for four years, including all the Latin ballroom dances.

The amazing thing is that she was a little rusty on Salsa. I caught her by surprise when I did a simple cross body lead with an inside turn, and there were a couple other things she had just a tiny bit of trouble with. It was like dancing with a Latin goddess who was miraculously on my level somehow.

There was a physical connection I've felt with almost no one else, and she was also very nice, very easy to talk to. It was such a strange experience; almost bizarre.

Now I'm even more intrigued by the world of ballroom than before. I'd LOVE to take ballroom lessons if they weren't so expensive.

 

[crazygirl]

Perhaps if you all stopped over analysing you'd relax enough to enjoy the experience!

It's the cup half full thing - so your'e not the perfect dancer and there are a few social obstacles to get to grips with, so what. One of the things I love about the salsa community is all the positive buzz so how about adding some of your own? That or you'll end up in a negative clique all of your own making.....

 

[Salsa Bear]

Perhaps if you all stopped over analysing you'd relax enough to enjoy the experience!

It's the cup half full thing - so your'e not the perfect dancer and there are a few social obstacles to get to grips with, so what. One of the things I love about the salsa community is all the positive buzz so how about adding some of your own? That or you'll end up in a negative clique all of your own making.....

Maybe you're the one who's over analyzing. Some of us register on this forum and begin asking honest questions, and we're practically attacked for spreading negativity, over analyzing, etc.

Yes, positive buzz is nice, but there's also a lot of disinformation out there. As I've related on other threads, someone could have saved me a lot of time and money if they'd been more honest.

 

[pwcs]

Salsa Bear,

A bit ironic really, as your reply to Crazygirl is rather aggressive. I think she has point. Just take a step back, relax, chill-out and enjoy the ride a bit more. Positive vibes are good for you man!

 

[Flujo]

One of the things I love about the salsa community is all the positive buzz so how about adding some of your own? That or you'll end up in a negative clique all of your own making.....

This is very much the truth of it. Past experience tells me that the perception and attitude you bring into a place directly affects the type of experience you'll have even to a point where reality almost has no bearing on your thoughts. We can add energy to either side of the equation and with the mind being such a powerful thing, it can manifest all our fears and insecurities in ways we aren't even aware of if we let it.

If confrontation is the reality your mind expects then ok. Just be aware of that and deal with it accordingly rather than let it manifest confrontation in a place that is meant to be somewhere where the threat level can come down a good few notches. Nobody is perfect! We all have our sh*t and we all need somewhere to release our burdens and let ourselves go. It's life..as the title says.

One great thing about discussion forums is that people can talk about whatever they like (within the guidelines of the forum of course). They are places to mull over the details of our interests and to find new insights. The thoughts and opinions of others can completely change our perceptions but only if the gates of discussion are open to both the positive and negative. With strong opinions come strong objections. A humble person will take those objections on board and re-evaluate their position if they are shown to be in error.

Dunno where all that came from. Food for thought maybe...

 

[Salsa Bear]

The thoughts and opinions of others can completely change our perceptions but only if the gates of discussion are open to both the positive and negative.

Wow, I didn't know you were so eloquent!

When I was a teacher, I was shocked to discover that teachers - who I assumed were truthmongers - go ballistic when another teacher airs the profession's dirty laundry in public. In fact, if their students are being abused, they'll actually ignore the abuser and attack a person who warns the public about the abuser.

Most people live in a bubble, and they become very uncomfortable when someone pops that bubble. What's the saying about upsetting apple carts?

The irony is that Salsa was born out of turmoil, not denial. Slavery > Cuban Revolution > Cuban Embargo > 1960's/70's Flower Power Rebellion

 

[Shines]

"Can't we all just get along?" -Rodney King, 1992

 

[CT2CA]

"Can't we all just get along?" -Rodney King, 1992

You mean everybody should always agree on everything? Impossible!

 

[Flujo]

Salsa Bear, I was just trying to get a point across as best as I could. The short of it is that I see both sides.

Amanda once complimented me for being someone who danced with everyone. It's no big thing really and is only what is seen on the surface. What was hidden underneath we she gave the compliment was the person that had all the questions and complaints about people that didn't do that; people who seemed to take themselves too seriously and saw themselves as too good to dance with beginners or anyone considered not worthy of their time.

I made a conscious decision to not be part of what was perceived in my mind as 'the problem'. But, that so called 'problem' at the time really wasn't a problem at all in hindsight. It was simply different groups of people enjoying themselves in a way that they chose too with who(m) they chose too. That's it! I was attacking the truth in defence if MY ideal.

I see your point about saying what's real (to borrow a phrase) even though I don't necessarily agree with your approach. I also see crazygirl's point about being positive and don't think there is any "attacking" going on here. If there is anything that will be attacked it will be the truth, not the ideal, but that doesn't mean that the truth always has to be fear and foreboding.

The way I see it, the forums are here to discuss the details whether they are positive or negative. They are here so that we can find ways to deal with things. Once we have, the dance floor is there to ENJOY the details.

 

[Salsa Bear]

Amazing Experience

I just had a very interesting experience. I attended some sort of "performance event," mostly poetry. I can't even remember the name of the event; I never paid attention to the details. But all the performers were women. I went only because one my favorite Latin singers - a local rising star - was among the scheduled performers.

Of course, she sang - which is a form of poetry.

During the evening, I struck up a conversation with a guy sitting at my table. I told him I was there to see this Latin singer, and then I mentioned the fact that I've been dabbling in Salsa for a while.

He told me he was into Salsa for a while. I asked him why he quit, and he said it was too hard. We talked a little more, and he also said the social scene was frustrating. I told him I'm very intimidated by women who are better dancers than me and that even beginners can be frustrating, because I seldom get more than one dance with them before the more experienced dancers start dancing with them and teaching them on the dance floor.

He more or less said "Ditto." It turns out he hung out at the same club I do.

But he wasn't angry or bitter about his experience with Salsa, nor did he criticize me for saying "negative" things about it. I asked: "If someone had told you before you started that Salsa would be very hard to learn, and the social arena could be another obstacle, would you have still taken Salsa classes?"

He said, "Yes."

Then the lady I came to watch performed, singing Samba, Salsa and pop songs in English, Spanish and Portuguese.

The song that most impressed me was a Salsa song she wrote the music to. It was based on a poem her grandmother had written in Spanish, and she inserted a poem in English in it.

Her grandmother came to American from Puerto Rico alone at the age of fifteen and eventually wound up raising nine children as a single parent.

That's one of the key things I'm searching for in Latin music - something deeper than romantic Salsa. There's nothing wrong with embracing Salsa as nothing more than a form of recreation - that's a big attraction for me. But I would like to also find something deeper in it, and I'm personally a little annoyed that it sometimes seems so shallow and commercialized. Maybe that's what the documentary Politics of Rhythm is driving at.

Anyway, this thread is titled "It's Life!" Yes, Salsa IS life. But there's a vast gulf between life as experienced by urban American yuppies and Puerto Rican immigrants.

Ultimately, Latin music and dance is whatever one wants it to be. Some people go through life on auto-pilot. For others, life is more dramatic, passionate, even tragic.

I think the cultural phenomenon we call Salsa has many facets that are invisible even to many professional dancers. But each facet represents a different life experience.

 

[KP-salsa]

Her grandmother came to American from Puerto Rico alone at the age of fifteen and eventually wound up raising nine children as a single parent.

That's one of the key things I'm searching for in Latin music - something deeper than romantic Salsa. There's nothing wrong with embracing Salsa as nothing more than a form of recreation - that's a big attraction for me. But I would like to also find something deeper in it, and I'm personally a little annoyed that it sometimes seems so shallow and commercialized. Maybe that's what the documentary Politics of Rhythm is driving at.

The majority of ALL music is shallow and commercialized, it isn't something unique to latin music.

(ETA: had to use the US spelling of commer******ed because the swear filter belives it's referring to a common ****** substitute)

 

[Salsa Bear]

The majority of ALL music is shallow and commercialized, it isn't something unique to latin music.

(ETA: had to use the US spelling of commer******ed because the swear filter belives it's referring to a common ****** substitute)

Yes, but this forum focuses on Salsa, and while music died in the 70's here in the U.S., my understanding is that similar themes are still a big influence in Latin music today - at least in some genres, regions, etc.

 

[KP-salsa]

Yes, but this forum focuses on Salsa, and while music died in the 70's here in the U.S., my understanding is that similar themes are still a big influence in Latin music today - at least in some genres, regions, etc.

*All* music died in the 70s or just salsa music?

I'd written two paragraphs before my post that I deleted, explaining that I thought that expecting salsa music to provide you with a "reigious" or "real" experience is almost as limiting, ghettoising and patronising to that music as only wanting it to give you Ricky Martin. Pretty much ever subject matter covered by salsa music is covered by every other music around the world, but in ever genre the songs about love, with the catchy hooks and the pretty boy/girl singers are what get the attention. It's an old story.

In every genre of music 90% of it will be rubbish, 8% will be acceptable and a few small percent will be wonderful - this goes for folk music, salsa, C&W, hip hop, rock ... everything.

 

[Flujo]

I just had a very interesting experience...

Thanks for sharing that!
I was pretty wary of your political leanings at first SalsaBear so took those into account when replying before. After reading about this experience though, I think I get where you are coming from. Keep searching man...your journey will take you where you need to go! The only thing I would say is that it is your journey. Each person has their own and on here just like in life again (a recurring theme) you'll learn pretty quickly that it is a waste of time to expect other people to get you, it is unfair to 'expect' others to be interested and wrong to dismiss another persons take on something as shallow.

Who's to say that someone who thinks of dancing only as a bit of fun won't have deep philosophical thoughts on the meaning of life - a person like that might find value in seeing things through the eyes of a child and could be easily dismissed as being simplistic and undefined in their approach. We can't possibly know for sure why people dance and why they think the way that they do. Nor can we judge others from a perspective that has been defined only by the life we've led, not by they life they've led.