Is Kizomba just dry humping?

[Offbeat]

I don't know about visas or stereotypes (after all Africa is a range of cultures and many of men are European even with African roots). This just comes from stories from many women over years.
We have room for growth. From my observations US doesn't have these issues, but I might be wrong.

In the USA, the largest percentage of black women dancers I have seen in salsa were in NYC. Compared to any west coast cities as a percentage and absolute numbers too, NYC always has larger number of Africa American dancers. I have no idea how it is in Chicago, Miami, Atlanta. I don't think women of any ethnicity can claim to get more dances or not get enough dances in the USA.

I have verbalized like it several times and also mentioned a few times how I hardly encountered followers with African roots in EU. May be Paris and London are relative exceptions. That is not an issue with the leaders. The leaders with African roots tend to be fairly popular in both salsa and kizomba.

With the performers from Cali, Colombia I also observed that there were far more make performers of Afro-Colombian heritage than the females. Among the couple performers from Cali, the followers would be overwhelmingly non-Afro-Colombians. On the leaders side I didn't notice as much discrepancy.

This is first time I am hearing that the black women in EU don't get asked as much. If that is true then it explains their extremely low numbers in EU salsa.

 

[artimalid]

Because many of African guys don't ask black women much if white are available. They would like to dance, but sooner or later they leave. Same in salsa, African women get less dances.

Howcome?

 

[MamboJazz]

I have verbalized like it several times and also mentioned a few times how I hardly encountered followers with African roots in EU. May be Paris and London are relative exceptions. That is not an issue with the leaders. The leaders with African roots tend to be fairly popular in both salsa and kizomba.

Actually only few european countries have a notable percentage of black citizens, it boils down to the few with african colonial history: France, UK, Belgium and Portugal. Having no dance experience in these countries I can't say anything about it. But videos from Kizz in France are very clear about the tilt in black gender ratio. Obviously if you never get asked by a large part of the good leads then you start feeling bitter and don't come back. It is bizarre, and even more as you say it is not the case in the US.

 

[Yogalholic]

It's more an urbankiz thing than traditional kizomba. Urbankiz has replaced french zouk i that regard

 

[Offbeat]

Actually only few european countries have a notable percentage of black citizens, it boils down to the few with african colonial history: France, UK, Belgium and Portugal. Having no dance experience in these countries I can't say anything about it. But videos from Kizz in France are very clear about the tilt in black gender ratio. Obviously if you never get asked by a large part of the good leads then you start feeling bitter and don't come back. It is bizarre, and even more as you say it is not the case in the US.

In EU congresses and festivals I find many European men of African heritage. I am referring only to salsa community. From Paris to Moscow and everywhere in between. They are also tend to be popular with the ladies. You can see a few on the YouTube videos. Some countries in Europe also have migration from the Caribbeans.

 

[Smejmoon]

In EU congresses and festivals I find many European men of African heritage. I am referring only to salsa community. From Paris to Moscow and everywhere in between. They are also tend to be popular with the ladies. You can see a few on the YouTube videos. Some countries in Europe also have migration from the Caribbeans.

I don't think it's about EU, it's racism and sexism combined. Quality of person as a dancer is judged by their skin color, clothing, country of birth, etc. In US you guys have racism as integral part of society, but also a taboo topic. In Europe there are some countries where there are no salsa dancers with radically different color, so we manage not to see consequences of our inner nature and bad education that often. In kizz parties with accent on Africa this is just blatantly visible.

 

[Winston]

In those racists places, .....
- Are there more young african men than african women in the general population?
- Do african women want to dance as much with white men, as white women like to dance with african men?
- Do african men want to dance with african women?
- Do african women ask men (whatever race) to dance as much as the white women ask men, or do they rather wait to be asked for a dance?
- Are there more african men than white men in the kizomba scene?
- Are african women traditionally less sexually liberated compared to white women in order to 'suggestively grind' with strange men on the dance floor?

 

[Offbeat]

I don't think it's about EU, it's racism and sexism combined. Quality of person as a dancer is judged by their skin color, clothing, country of birth, etc. In US you guys have racism as integral part of society, but also a taboo topic. In Europe there are some countries where there are no salsa dancers with radically different color, so we manage not to see consequences of our inner nature and bad education that often. In kizz parties with accent on Africa this is just blatantly visible.

My reference was to the gender imbalance within the dance scenes wrt to a particular ethnicity. If the same imbalance exists in general population then it will naturally get reflected on the dance floor. The imbalance seen in the salsa dancing communities in EU to me seems to exhibit at least one sigma deviation, if not two, from the general population. That makes it striking. I don’t see it in the USA. A parallel in the USA would be like seeing one Latina for every 10 Latinos who are salsa dancers.

You are ascribing the causation to racism and sexism. You may be right but I don’t have any experience to back up that assertion. I am more familiar with racism and sexism that exists in USA. It manifests in USA very differently. Racism and sexism exists in almost every culture and geography to varying degrees. How it is acted upon also differs.

But all that apart and whatever are the reasons, my point was that it is very apparent and in your face when dancing around for anyone to notice the adverse ratio of number of EU based African origin male salsa dancers (who are very visible) to their female counterparts (invisible to almost non-existent). More often than not, when I have danced or met a black follower in EU, they are visitors from outside the continent. Are you saying this particular imbalance is not observed by the rest of salsa community in EU or they are oblivious to it?

Since we are talking about salsa dancing and in Europe, this is indeed about EU salsa. Racism and sexism exists everywhere. That is not the argument. Within the context of salsa dancing, the disparity stands in stark contrast to elsewhere. I would also say that EU salsa is more homogenous in the context of community where the dancers from different regions are familiar or known to each other. Which means you get exposed to a lot of dancers from all dance scenes in EU. On the other hand in the USA, as a community each major scene is an island by itself. May be a large island but still an island. We travel less to other scenes and interact less with the dancers from other scenes. As you know most USA dancers don’t attend festivals outside of their local regions. The local festival attendance to tends to be low. Part of it is of course the local scenes are relatively very large compared to EU. We know far less dancers from neighboring scenes like say LA or distant ones like say NYC.

P.S. - As for the bolded, that’s a bit surprising to me if such stereotyping gets consciously applied at an individual level within salsa dancing in EU.

 

[Offbeat]

In those racists places, .....
- Are there more young african men than african women in the general population?

Probably yes if you look at historical migration patterns. Men migrate more than women. But in a few generations the ratio kind of equalizes. However in the context of this discussion the deviation of imbalance in the dance scene from the general population is significant. Assume that in general population the ratio is 60:40, in the dance scene that ratio is more 90:10 or 95:5.

- Are african women traditionally less sexually liberated compared to white women in order to 'suggestively grind' with strange men on the dance floor?

My experience suggests the opposite! Probably only the latinas are more comfortable with their sexuality and expressing it. [not to be confused with liberation and patriarchy in the respective societies/communities].

 

[MamboJazz]

In those racists places, .....
- Are there more young african men than african women in the general population?
- Do african women want to dance as much with white men, as white women like to dance with african men?
- Do african men want to dance with african women?
- Do african women ask men (whatever race) to dance as much as the white women ask men, or do they rather wait to be asked for a dance?
- Are there more african men than white men in the kizomba scene?
- Are african women traditionally less sexually liberated compared to white women in order to 'suggestively grind' with strange men on the dance floor?

If I ever come to such a venue I will sit down and make exact notices about what everybody does.

 

[AKon1]

I understand it's an African dance with little to no fusion, but salsa still has a lot of African influence.

As I said before its an African dance in the way the white guy who's 23 and Me said he is 3% West African is now wearing a kufi.

 

[MamboJazz]

Some things got mixed in the last postings:

Are you saying this particular imbalance is not observed by the rest of salsa community in EU or they are oblivious to it?

Yes, I say in my EU area I haven't noticed this gender imbalance, because here you mostly don't have more than one or two black persons in the whole venue so there is not much to notice. As I said in most EU countries black people are quite rare. You say you noticed it even in Moscow - must be all travelers there I suppose.

Here's a map showing estimated european black population per country, and you can see that except in France, UK, Portugal and Belgium (the ex colonial countries in Africa) it is very low.

Estimated European Black Population By Country In 2020 - Brilliant Maps

Map created by reddit user u/Crimson_Vol

brilliantmaps.com

I never danced in Paris, of course there your observations may be true also in Salsa. But at least in Paris Salsa Videos (I saw quite a few) it never was so obvious for me as in Paris Kizz videos.

Since we are talking about salsa dancing and in Europe, this is indeed about EU salsa.

Not sure. This thread is about Kizomba and most of us were referring to imbalance in Kizomba.

On the other hand in the USA, as a community each major scene is an island by itself. May be a large island but still an island. We travel less to other scenes and interact less with the dancers from other scenes. As you know most USA dancers don’t attend festivals outside of their local regions. The local festival attendance to tends to be low. Part of it is of course the local scenes are relatively very large compared to EU. We know far less dancers from neighboring scenes like say LA or distant ones like say NYC.

Another topic this, but interesting, as it explains to me how so very different styles could develop in NYC and LA in the 90s.

 

[Offbeat]

Yes, I say in my EU area I haven't noticed this gender imbalance, You say you noticed it even in Moscow - must be all travelers there I suppose.

Yes. Apart from a few local socials in Paris, my reference distinctly mentioned the popular EU salsa festivals. Like Paris, Magic, El Sol, popular marathons and other events. You more or less meet the same dancers if you start attending multiple of these every year.

Not sure. This thread is about Kizomba and most of us were referring to imbalance in Kizomba.

Indeed. My point was that I been seeing that imbalance in salsa too. May be on a lesser scale if there are far more black guys in kizomba scene. Then the explanation was put forth about the black followers quitting due to lack of dance opportunity which was attributes to racism. I don't know if that was kizomba specific or applied in general to other dances like salsa.

 

[Smejmoon]

P.S. - As for the bolded, that’s a bit surprising to me if such stereotyping gets consciously applied at an individual level within salsa dancing in EU.

Because you made it up. As I wrote in sentence before, it has nothing to do with EU. EU is not a culture. (I've been to all countries except Luxembourg, Malta, and Portugal, I don't think anything unites all of them. Maybe beer, but then I'm sure some wine lover will disagree.)

Stereotyping and homophobia is just human nature. Luckily we have education and culture to understand, resist and bypass that.
It's most probably not consciously applied, but much of our decisions are unconscious.

 

[Winston]

Maybe it's not the black ladies that are underrepresented, but the black guys are over represented?
Could it be that they dance better, so they stay longer in the scene because they feel loved by the ladies. White guys and black guys that aren't that good, are not appreciated enough by the ladies and so they'll leave the scene.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Maybe the answer is as simple as looking at the demographics of the locality you're dancing in?

 

[Offbeat]

Because you made it up. As I wrote in sentence before, it has nothing to do with EU. EU is not a culture.

made up what ? EU in wider context not being a culture is debatable. The arguments can be made both for and against. For example Europeans like to refer to “European values”, just like Americans like to refer to “ American values”. From outside perceptive there is indeed is an “European Identity”. A lot of Californians think and outsiders agree that within USA there is a California identity. Just as there is a Texan identity, midwestern identity, southern identity, etc. Yet they all also have an overarching American identity. That’s a digressing from the topic at hand.

Within the context of salsa festivals and salsa dancing, there is a pan EU salsa culture.

 

[Smejmoon]

made up what ? EU in wider context not being a culture is debatable. The arguments can be made both for and against. For example Europeans like to refer to “European values”, just like Americans like to refer to “ American values”. From outside perceptive there is indeed is an “European Identity”. A lot of Californians think and outsiders agree that within USA there is a California identity. Just as there is a Texan identity, midwestern identity, southern identity, etc. Yet they all also have an overarching American identity. That’s a digressing from the topic at hand.

Within the context of salsa festivals and salsa dancing, there is a pan EU salsa culture.

US, Australia, South Africa, Japan, Chile have European values. Now with tiktok all world will have Chinese values in a few years. Once you go too broad labeling becomes meaningless. This is why I prepended the sentence you quoted that I don't think it has anything to do with EU.

Demographics argument is valid.

Still I've heard a dozen of stories from women over years and just one story from the guy that he doesn't get enough attention because of his skin color, while I have appropriate color for women's liking. He has dozens of his videos posted in salsaforums, so I don't feel too sorry. He gets dances, just his line of followers is shorter than Terry. It's very different from situation where you come to dance party and sit for long stretches.

 

[Winston]

One point I like to make is that racism isn't the only reason and even not the main reason of all reasons that some ladies are not getting enough dances.

 

[MamboJazz]

Maybe it's not the black ladies that are underrepresented, but the black guys are over represented?
Could it be that they dance better, so they stay longer in the scene because they feel loved by the ladies. White guys and black guys that aren't that good, are not appreciated enough by the ladies and so they'll leave the scene.

But this would also mean that black women dance worse than average and therefore are not asked.
So black guys dance better than average but black women dance worse than average?