Is Kizomba just dry humping?

hmijail said:
FFS, this guy is Adilson Maiza, an Angolan National Champion and one of the few Angolans that one can find frequently in European festivals. He even made a Kuduro song recently.
That you don't recognize him says quite a bit about you as a "kiz" dancer and about your whole "African community" theory. :rolleyes:

I don't get it, why that need to claim kizomba for yourself when clearly you don't care?
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Where did I say that I'm claiming anything? I stated that I am simply a dancer who greatly enjoys French fusion kizomba. I am not going to start saying French fusion kizomba every time just because you have a problem with people using the word kizomba outside of Angola.

Furthermore, it's very telling that you choose to post as a "just an Angolan party" example the video of a kizomba champion (and the follow is also an instructor I believe). So much for "street authenticity" :p

I regularly dance with Africans from many more African countries and I greatly enjoy dancing with all of them.

And the best African dancers I have danced with are definitely not from Angola ;) But you are convinced Angolans hold the secret key to kizomba so you will just dismiss that information.

PS I have no interest in continuing this conversation given how biased you are. Plus I'm too busy dancing with amazing dancers in Paris almost every night ;)

But it's been very enlightening to see how effective of a brainwash mechanism the romanticizing of African culture by white guys is.
Enjoy your repetitive dancing ;)
 
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Sabrosura said:
Furthermore, it was in fact the African community in Europe that played a big role in the evolution of kizomba within Europe, so it's not like "the white Europeans" took it from the Africans.
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Sabrosura said:
I am not going to start saying French fusion kizomba every time just because you have a problem with people using the word kizomba outside of Angola.
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I'm going to bet that you don't see the disconnect here.
 
Sabrosura said:
And like it or not your Angolan champion is wearing the t-shirt of a Paris urban kiz instructor. So clearly he's aspiring to that at some level
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Totally! As I already said, Angolans depend on Europeans' goodwill; they have limited internet access and they're even made to pay for their own tickets to Europe to teach, while Europeans (and "African community in Europe") have been peddling their "kizomba fusion" across the world for over a decade. So I'll understand if he's proud to show off he was in Europe, and/or if he wants to stay in the good side of his sponsors.

Colonization has a looooong tail.

Sabrosura said:
Furthermore, it's very telling that you choose to post as a "just an Angolan party" example the video of a kizomba champion (and the follow is also an instructor I believe). So much for "street authenticity" :p
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At this point it doesn't feel like you're even trying to be honest, but just in case: as I said in the post, this video was to show how in a proper Angolan party you dance strictly 1 song and how people leave the dance floor at the end of each song. No more, no less.

The point being: nothing to do with silly European dark room "kiz" stuff.

Again, Angolans have limited internet access. The ones who can post videos are the fortunate ones, like Adilson, who can even travel to Europe. Most people I met in Angola could not afford a party like that one - they just dance in the street. Search Kizomba Na Rua if you really care - and see how it's tourists and international instructors posting videos, not "normal Angolans".

Why would anyone get into an Angolan dance ... and learn it in Europe from Europeans while defending that actually it's "African community" so it's good enough... while laughing at the "romanticizing of African culture"... by white guys?
o_O

OK, so since we're now close and personal, to me the most disappointing thing is knowing that you have been dancing for so many years. I kinda thought that after a couple of years people start to care about what they are learning, if only to get their stuff directly from the source and minimize the game of telephone - it's just more efficient. Looks like I was too optimistic, and whatever the guy in the gym next door advertises might still be enough (which is totally OK)... but still you'll defend your thing as authentic (which is shocking).

There's no shame in saying "I like this and I don't care where it comes from". Why dress it up?
 
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That's not kizomba, it's urban kiz.
For kizomba, you don't memorize; you get the basics of leading/following and then you improvise. There are no "combos" or named figures (though a handful were named in Europe).
For urban kiz, no idea. FWIW, the (very few) instructors I looked at seemed of the "one combo per week" type.
 
hmijail said:
I'm going to bet that you don't see the disconnect here.
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Wow you're really ridiculous in trying to poke holes while not really understanding much about what you're talking about.

An African person in France can be African and French at the same time in terms of their culture. So no, there is no disconnect between what I said.

Just like an Angolan dancer can enjoy dancing Angolan kizomba and at the same time aspire to learn urban kiz.

Dancing and the culture of dancing are not static and there is no such thing as "authentic dancing". You seem to want to conserve "Angolan dance purity" more than they do. Bet you don't see the irony there.

Trying to build up and defend "authentic dance purity" is a fool's attempt that does nothing but create division.

At many parties in Paris there is an Angolan kizomba / semba session along with the rest of the styles we dance. We happily dance all the styles. But somehow I bet there is no fusion or urban kiz at your parties...
 
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Winston said:
Watching this, ..... how do you learn kizomba?
How can you memorize so many little things?
I mean it's not like salsa: you learn a finite amount of steps and turns, and the rest are just combinations and variations.
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That's precisely the beauty of kizomba :) (in all its styles)

There is much more variation and creativity of expression possible than in salsa. This video doesn't even show all the really sophisticated things you can do in closed connection.

It's important to learn all the bases and technique, and from that you will develop an awareness of all the possibilities (which will continue to expand as you dance it more). Dancers then tend to go on and develop their own style and their own unique ways of expressing their musicality. All while connecting with the partner in a beautiful dance of co-creation :)

That is why kizomba is much more interesting and fun than salsa. And indeed, also harder to learn, as you can't just rely on canned patterns.

Except for the repetitive Angolan kizomba of course, which is much easier and much less interesting since since it's mostly the same repetitive steps :p
 
Winston said:
Watching this, ..... how do you learn kizomba?
How can you memorize so many little things?
I mean it's not like salsa: you learn a finite amount of steps and turns, and the rest are just combinations and variations.
Click to expand...

I don’t like that music. I don’t see what is difficult about the movement you find in that video. It is more free form (aka improvisational). You can’t view partner dancing only from lens of salsa where most dancers “think” their movement is confined to what is taught and they see others dancing. Then that becomes the culture of dance. On the other hand when you break apart for shines and dance solo, salsa is completely free form and totally improvisational. People make up their own footwork, combine body movements in myriad ways, etc. Some combinations in someone’s shines might appeal to you, other might not. There can be infinite combinations for doing shines, you don’t learn them all nor do you need to. Yet you are able to dance shines without memorization, aren’t you :)

The key to partner dancing is never memorization. Caveats apart about having to do so when starting out, if your partner dance learning or teaching depends on memorization, you can’t get too far. Plus most movements will appeared canned and robotic. The key is to know the right technique, know the basic building blocks, and then build on top of it to improvise according to musical interpretations.

In that video what you perceive as many little things is combining technique with certain basic movements and then adding some stylistic elements. What I term “stylistic elements” are usually personalized movements to add flavor (I mean flavor as in food, not as in sabor) to your dancing. You can very well dance without “stylistic elements”. In salsa for example some of the arm styling the followers do is an example of “stylistic elements”. Ofcourse some can do it well and others do it excessively or un-necessarily. Like putting too much salt in the food. A good dancer will judiciously use them to express certain things in music or enhance the dance.
 
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Sabrosura said:
That's precisely the beauty of kizomba :) (in all its styles)

There is much more variation and creativity of expression possible than in salsa. This video doesn't even show all the really sophisticated things you can do in closed connection.
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@Winston Here is a video of a different style (tarraxo) that shows the level of sophisticated expression and playful musical co-creation that can happen in closed connection dancing. Watch their entire body as they dance.


(No offense to Angolan kizomba but the level of sophisticated musical creativity and expression here just does not compare. Plus the follow gets a lot more freedom of expression and is a true dance co-creator with the lead.)
 
[Moderators' Note]
Posts in this (otherwise terrific and educated) discussion which have devolved into unnecessary and unpleasant personal attacks have been edited.

Please continue to keep up the great discussion and ideally be willing to listen to others' perspectives.

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azana said:
[Moderators' Note]
Posts in this (otherwise terrific and educated) discussion which have devolved into unnecessary and unpleasant personal attacks have been edited.

Please continue to keep up the great discussion and ideally be willing to listen to others' perspectives.

[Moderators' Note]
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Why not just ban Kizomba threads altogether? :P
 
Sabrosura said:
Trying to build up and defend "authentic dance purity" is a fool's attempt that does nothing but create division.
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Is it foolish to divide salsa and bachata?
You were anxious to say that urban kiz is not like what happened with BS vs bachata. Why create that division?
Your own signature divides each style into substyles.

Even people uninterested in kizomba have already noticed here that the music is totally different.
And with different music you end up with different dance, which is what has been happening for a decade now - and the divergence only grows, obviously.
It's not that difficult to understand, I'd guess?
Unless the business model depends on not understanding, of course.
 
(... as for your friend, please check if that's the same guy who thought that salsa is from Cuba and got shocked when I asked him why there's NY and LA but not Havana?
But yeah, the "kizomba" scene in Brisbane was ... strange. I get that some used to do whatever they wanted, won't get caught now in a proper, high-energy kizomba party, and so have it more difficult now to explain what they do. So sorry ;))
 
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