Is hardship really part of the process of learning salsa?

[Chris_Yannick]

You would probably not find it so silly if instead of dancing we were talking about medicine, information technology, languages or aeronautical design...

I teach languages. You will reach a threshold in your learning when you can switch to self-learning. At that point, I would always recommend learning through real world experience over private lessons. I am ecstatic if advanced students continue taking lessons from me, but I will never tell an advanced student that it is essential for them to take lessons if they are already able to communicate close to a native level.

Also, formal education in language learning doesn't interest me. The school system has already failed me big time. Screw the establishment.

I say go out there and get real world experience.

Advanced dancers can go back to beginner classes if they want, but it isn't necessary.

 

[sunchoboy]

It not about single approach. I just joined the thread because there was a hint that going to marathons will not help dancers to improve. This is just not true. You can't become good social dancer, if you don't go out and don't dance. You can, if you don't take classes.

Couple years ago I actually talked to professional dancer about her struggles on the dance floor. She could then and can now dance circles around most dancers, but it took her couple years of social dancing, till she felt comfortable and was really good on the dance floor.

I don't claim that social dancing is necessary for becoming a good social dancer. Of course it is. But active learning on the dancefloor is not. A person can just go out, do some relaxed dancing and take quite intensive classes in other styles at the same time. A way to improve? No doubt. Attending marathons seems to be another way. I think all the discussion here feeds off denying some ways to improve.

I teach languages. You will reach a threshold in your learning when you can switch to self-learning. At that point, I would always recommend learning through real world experience over private lessons. I am ecstatic if advanced students continue taking lessons from me, but I will never tell an advanced student that it is essential for them to take lessons if they are already able to communicate close to a native level.

Also, formal education in language learning doesn't interest me. The school system has already failed me big time. Screw the establishment.

I say go out there and get real world experience.

Advanced dancers can go back to beginner classes if they want, but it isn't necessary.

There are many ways, it's a matter of personal choice.

 

[Aurel]

What became very obvious when analyzing all this data is that the average beginner student learning at least three dances (usually merengue bachata and salsa) did so at a slower rate than the average one dance (usually salsa) beginner student.

But the one-dance student had 10% more chances of dropping out during his first program (Those varied in length between 7 and 12 lessons) than the three dance student and 15 to 20 % more chances of dropping out during the second program. And by the end of the first year of lessons, only 10 to 12% of the original cohort of one dance students were still active and only a third of that number were dancing at a higher proficiency level than the three dance students, of whom, on average 80% of the original cohort was still dancing.

The result? If you are in the rare 3 to 4% of only salsa students who succeed, well congratulations! But about 88% of your fellow beginners are now going bowling or playing the bagpipes to pass their time. You go out dancing to latin clubs that play a blend of music and you have to sit out all the merengues and bachatas so you restrict yourself to salsa-only socials were you mingle with other dancers like you who wonder why the scene is getting stale and there is no new blood coming in.

If hardship is the reason why beginners drop out, we have here a good glimpse into maybe why some experience demoralizing difficulty and other don’t. I am not insinuating that this is the only reason but it is kind of evident…

Nice numbers but they don't actually show a thing. You are just mixing causation and correlation.

1) While people who take more dances might stay longer in the studio, it does not mean they are actually better dancers - unless you have some universal objective measure of one's dancing ability. The fact that they take classes or attend higher-difficulty/level classes does not necessarily mean they are actually better (social) dancers.

2) It sounds like you are assuming that dancing more dances (or starting with merengue) makes the learning less of an hardship but there is no clear causation. Correlation maybe, but no causation. It can be that those students who take more on more dances are just more into the whole latin culture and that is what makes them stay. So it's not the number of different dances that is the reason for their perseverance. They may be more invested into their dancing in the first place and that might be the reason for them taking more dances, not the other way around.

3) Do you have dependable data on the dances outside of the studios? The fact that the students no longer attend the studio does not mean they stopped dancing. They might be learning in a different studio, no longer take classes but keep dancing socially, or switch to other dance (salsa just was not their thing).

4) You completely avoid the whole social aspect of the social dancing. Not being able to dance to every kind of music being played might be demoralising, but it might also give you time to actually socialise and create bonds that will make you more likely to stay in the community.

 

[LarsM]

I have access to student data too, and would also venture to say that students who take classes in more than one style are more likely to perservere. I agree with Auriel though - they're not necessarily better dancers. In fact, most of the people who take endless classes tend to stay at a certain level, not investing much in self-learning. They do become more rooted in the community though, forging friendships in and outside of class.

Just an anedote from one place so nothing definitive of course.

 

[LarsM]

In my experience things almost always happen the other way round. Leading is difficult - it takes most people a long time to become even semi-proficient. Even with good teaching it simply takes a long time to build the necessary confidence. Learning the rhythm is the easy part.

This is a bit too binary imo. "learning how to lead" is more of a spectrum and takes year to develop further and further. Now after almost 4 years I'm definitely a better leader than a year ago, and obviously better than 3 years ago. Do I know how to lead? Did I know how to lead at year 2?

Same with rhythm. After 3 weeks I could fairly consistently find the 1 beat (but not always). After a year I never had problems. After 3 years I could jump in and out of the rhythm at will to play with the song and partner.

http://salsaroadmap.blogspot.com/ is a good guide for this subject too!

 

[Jag75]

Ok to be clear yes social dancing is very important - I social dance all the time. I also teach.

I also get coaching.

You yourself cannot properly evaluate whether you have developed any potential bad habits - it takes a professional instructor/coach to evaluate this.

It's possible to remove bad habits, but have bad habits creep back in. Again a coach can keep such bad habits in check.

I wouldn't feel 100% right about teaching, as it's a big responsibility, if I didn't myself get regular coaching.

Agree that you don't need to take regular weekly classes when you're an advanced dancer - but you know what? They don't hurt.

 

[Jag75]

I also agree that classes alone of course won't make you a good social dancer.

As for hardship - one thing that can't be overlooked - it's harder to develop bad habits and to have to unlearn them, than to avoid developing bad habits in the first place.

Many students will glaze over if the teacher starts explaining technique, but then wonder why they aren't as good as Johnny X who has been doing the same classes and is already "awesome". In their mind the technique lecture makes learning a "hardship", but really they are their own worst enemy and are actually making the learning process harder for themselves. There are many students like this.

The assumption is that they simply don't have the inert talent or capacity that Johnny X has, when in reality Johnny X paid attention and practiced that stuff at home. It wasn't the most fun aspect of learning, but Johnny ends up a much better dancer and feels better on the dance floor. Johnny X is much more likely to keep on learning as learning for Johnny is more rewarding.

Be like Johnny - take regular classes, go social dancing all the time, take privates, read books, watch YouTube, buy DVDs, and focus on proper technique.

 

[Offbeat]

When you social dance, you re-enforce stuff you've already learned. You don't really learn than much new stuff from social dancing. The reality is we *all* have some bad habits, even the very best dancers. As we social dance we're re-enforcing the good elements of our dancing, hence solidifying those skill, but we're also re-enforcing any bad habits we may have.

Everything you said is true but doesn't negate the original assertion that you are arguing against. The original assertion was " Advanced social dancers level up by social dancing more, not by taking more classes. This notion of taking more classes is silly and I suspect ulterior motives." Let's disregard the ulterior motive part. The fact is there are a lot of incompetent instructors out there and good instructors who have reached their level of competency. A dancer who has a good grasp of his skills and shortcomings, would certainly know which classes help and which ones don't. Not all or any class would help a self aware dancer. No matter how many classes you take, you still need 5x to 10x or dance time on the social dance floor to level up your social dancing.

In case of classes too after a certain point "less is more" applies. Advance dancers usually are focused on improving at one or two things at a time. That doesn't call for a lot of classes but one or two right class followed by tons of work putting it into practice. The key goal of advance dancer is refinement, not learning new thing. There is a difference. That is the reason why advance dancers go to fundamental classes.

The more classes and privates you take, the higher the ratio of good habits vs bad habits, but you re-enforce whatever you have of each when you go out social dancing..

As terence often says "right practice" is more important than just "practice". Similarly "right teacher" and "right class" is more important than the "more" classes and privates. In bolded you are also saying the same ting - a lot more social dancing.

If salsa instructors were good at teaching right habits, you wouldn't see such a vast majority of dancers with bad habits on the dance floor

 

[Offbeat]

Ok to be clear yes social dancing is very important - I social dance all the time. I also teach.

I also get coaching.

You yourself cannot properly evaluate whether you have developed any potential bad habits - it takes a professional instructor/coach to evaluate this.

It's possible to remove bad habits, but have bad habits creep back in. Again a coach can keep such bad habits in check.

I wouldn't feel 100% right about teaching, as it's a big responsibility, if I didn't myself get regular coaching.

Agree that you don't need to take regular weekly classes when you're an advanced dancer - but you know what? They don't hurt.

It is very different to social dance for leisure and fun and wanting to be as good at it; compared to when one is teaching. Levels of responsibilities towards others are very different. At advance level even your peers can tell you about bad habits you are developing. No dancer deserves to be called advanced if they aren't self-aware of their own shortcomings. Yes, bad habits always creep in and one needs to keep continuous training (right practice and right teacher/coach) to keep them at bay. That though doesn't translate into more classes is better. "social" means there is trade-off of time commitment too.

E.g. there are many things that I can point out to someone else about their dancing (bad technique, bad habits, etc). May be make a few suggestions about what they can do to improve and correct. But can I teach them how to fix it? no. Do I want to teach? no. If I did had to teach, there are certain things which even though I know, I will have to go out and become a lot better at. Imparting knowledge to someone else is very different from becoming knowledgeable oneself. A professor said to me once back in my college days "to be able to teach,he needs to be at least two levels higher than those he is teaching or else he will be ineffective". He meant in terms of knowledge and grasp of the subject matter.

I think we are largely agreeing on the key points. No one said absolutely no classes. Neither is anyone saying regular classes. If the regular classes were with the instructors of the quality or level of FM or Franklin Diaz then sure, but if it is with someone whose knowledge of the dance, its history, the music, technique, etc is not up to par, then it is not going to help. Rather one class or private with an instructor of high caliber, than regular classes with an instructor of average caliber.

 

[Offbeat]

Nice numbers but they don't actually show a thing. You are just mixing causation and correlation.

Very common mistake that people often make!

 

[SoFloW]

Hardship.. yes definitely, just went through it. I'm talking about psychological hardship as in; being unsure of which direction to take, why I can't move my hands independently of marking time with my feet, why are the patterns are not sticking, why I can't get to the point of expressing myself freely etc. Could it have been made easier is a question I often ask myself (took me one year to feel good). In my case this is what was needed:
1. Someone to convince me that on2 is a good way to dance, and that understanding the structure of music timing is crucial. Theoretically this can be done in a 10 minute conversation. In reality it took me a long time to accept. I feel stupid about that.
2. Youtube.
3. A partner with similar potential and motivation to my own, to play with to my hearts content.

In retrospect group classes and private lessons were an obstacle rather than helpful. Only now that I know what I know can I make use of a tip from someone more knowledgeable.

 

[SoFloW]

A student told me last year: "Francisco, I totally trust you with my goals and my progress because you are the first teacher I know who has accurately predicted how I would learn, what stages I would have to achieve to get to where I am now, when and where the difficulties would be met and how we would overcome them. I have no idea how many thousands of times you have seen other students go through the same process but there must have been a lot!"

As unique as every student is, he was mostly right.

Your heart is in the right place. But it's impossible to deliver this kind of message in the context of group classes. Private instruction is expensive (never mind often being ineffective) and paying is a different kind of hardship; personally I couldn't deal with the idea that I require private instruction for something people should be able to learn by watching others. That made me feel inadequate and that I don't deserve to become good. I rather chose the hardship of going through my own experiences. Hard lessons are the best/strongest lessons, that's just the way it goes.

 

[Aurel]

personally I couldn't deal with the idea that I require private instruction for something people should be able to learn by watching others.

Why do you thing that dancing is something that people should be able to learn by watching others?

 

[LarsM]

I've had a decent amount of private lessons, the value I got from them varied between completely useless to extremely useful.

imo the value from private lessons is mostly dependent on the student (obviously assuming that the instructor is competent, but that's another story). I've had the most value from the lessons where I went in with a clear idea of what I wanted to get out of the lesson. Do I need help with the basic/body movement? Anything particular with leading/following technique that I've noticed doesn't work socially? Do you need help nailing down a pattern that eludes you? A general review of strengths and weaknesses?

Knowing what you need and want to work on in advance of a lesson helps a lot!

 

[Joco]

... (took me one year to feel good).

This is more or less the time it takes for most leads to become sort of comfortable on the dance floor, build some repertoire, and experience to start to enjoy the social dancing a bit more. I think it certainly gets better after that

Also when you said that the idea of taking private classes for something that (some) others might be able to learn in a regular group class, keep in mind that different people struggle with different things and at different times. Some might experience hardships early on, but once things click, they can speed up their development, for others is the opposite. I think it boils down to a combination of motivation, time and money. There is no "one size fits all" here...

Something similar might have been mentioned earlier, but I've been lucky to have met some very friendly and very experienced dancers who were just willing to share their knowledge (exercises, musical ideas, theory etc..) willingly that helped me tremendously.. (and I still learn from such people).

 

[Jag75]

Your heart is in the right place. But it's impossible to deliver this kind of message in the context of group classes. Private instruction is expensive (never mind often being ineffective) and paying is a different kind of hardship; personally I couldn't deal with the idea that I require private instruction for something people should be able to learn by watching others. That made me feel inadequate and that I don't deserve to become good. I rather chose the hardship of going through my own experiences. Hard lessons are the best/strongest lessons, that's just the way it goes.

Why do you say privates are ineffective? They are easily the best learning you can do. Everyone develops bad habits if they don't get regular coaching - this is simple fact.

 

[Jag75]

Don't fall into the trap that you can learn to dance well by simply watching others. That's the same as saying you can become a good tennis player by watching lots of good players on YouTube, which is simply not true.

Everyone needs a knowledgeable instructor to guide them, whether it's in group classes or privates. I'd recommend taking both.

You may "feel good" dancing, but in reality you may have many bad habits that you're simply unaware of. It's not really possible to properly evaluate what those can be on your own, you need external guidance.

I've been dancing 12 years, teaching about 8. I know a lot of people who are self taught, and I haven't encountered a single one who I'd consider a good dancer.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Someone can become good by watching others, but it also needs to be applied.

Simply watching without doing it yourself won't work. Application is key.

If you've taken classes/privates for a number of years and have the basics, there's no need to revisit classes. Only the basics.

There is also the reverse trap of ONLY taking classes/privates.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Revisiting this topic, I had another thought about my own journey.

Now that I've reached a level which I am comfortable in, the hardship I experience is more psychological. Questions like "why do I still dance?" frequently enter my mind as I get older. I am not able to keep up with the average scene age and dance until the early hours of the mornings without repercussion.

My after night dance routine includes a long ritual of wind down, rehydration, stretching just so that I won't wake up completely useless the next day.

I am also not really interested seeking out many "dance" frienships as I know the scene and you are either in or you are out. It's very hard to be a part time dancer. People will simply forget about you if you are not active.

Of course I primarily dance for myself, which I find gives me the most pleasure, but even so, I still feel like I have an obligation to show up and dance, otherwise I will just be forgotten and that is a horrible feeling.

I write this as I am currently at a festival with horrible music and I find the prospect of skipping the party to sleep early more appealing, yet there are about 5-10 ppl I'd like to see, talk to and dance with.

Yet there are other times I travel to parties just to dance with one person, so the expectations I place on myself are huge to make the night worth it seeing that one person.

Just trying to find my motivation to go to the party. I always keep saying that this will be my last festival but it never is.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

I find that dancing is the only activity where it is normal for ppl to be half-in/ half-out of your life. You can have amazing chemistry with someone on the dance floor but at the end of the day it's only a dance. Sorry to break it to you, but when you are that close physically to someone, it's not just a dance. It means a hell of a lot more to me. Yet we find it socially acceptable to do this. The sensual dances tend to blur those lines even more. I find this very very disturbing. It is the single biggest gripe I have right now.

Now I know why many couples leave the scene. It is just dangerous otherwise and temptation is everywhere.

I am not a predator in the scene and maybe the furthest thing from it, but at the same time I've still managed to get entangled in ambiguous dance relationships.

Just more of my mental hardship