Francisco Fiko
Son
Fair enough. But what are the chances that your musical taste was influenced by the people you learned from or socially dance with?
Is hardship really part of the process of learning salsa?
- Thread starter Francisco Fiko
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Fair enough. But what are the chances that your musical taste was influenced by the people you learned from or socially dance with?
Francisco Fiko
Son
I would argue that it is precisely those advanced dancer that think about starting their own school that need beginner classes the most.
I agree with every single point you make. My point was that some advanced dancers go to salsa marathons with the misguided notion that hanging out with other advanced dancers will somehow help them improve more efficiently and without the effort of going to class.
Francisco Fiko
Son
I would instead say that dancing with advanced dancers is a way to improve. Dancing next to advanced dancers is a way to improve. Observing and figuring out what advanced dancers do is a way to improve.
And all of this is assuming that the advanced dancers are not showing you their bad habits or their lack of habits.
Sure; I assume advanced dancer has something they're good at. Otherwise I would not call them advanced.
Actually I believe a lot of learning on the dancefloor is unconscious. It still happens. It can be observed over time how people pick up good and bad habits, style, new moves from each other.
Actually I believe a lot of learning on the dancefloor is unconscious. It still happens. It can be observed over time how people pick up good and bad habits, style, new moves from each other.
Francisco Fiko
Son
You would probably not find it so silly if instead of dancing we were talking about medicine, information technology, languages or aeronautical design...
Francisco Fiko
Son
Well, that's one benefit from hanging out with advanced dancers.You get to know that some of them don't take classes and some do.
As I wrote there are many explanations: Some are addicted to classes (and probably that's how they got good, though there are many multiyear students and even teachers who are hard to dance with). Some always strive to improve and know how to gain from even the worstest lessons. Some like to hang out in the environment. Some like to reinforce what they already know or see that from different perspective.
Excellent points!
Francisco Fiko
Son
Agreed. Still, having a professional instructor help you analyze what you are absorbing to weed out the bad habits can save you a lot of hardship.
bailar y tocar
Son Montuno
I have yet to meet a beginner dancer (someone who has never danced before) who would know the difference between merengue and salsa.
Plus... as is par for the course on salsaforums you missed my point entirely. The point I made is that a lead needs to learn to lead first … period... then and only then can a lead tackle a complex rhythm.
If you can bring forth even one single lead (beginner, never danced before) who has done it the other way around in 6 weeks or less... I stand corrected.
If OTOH, the objective of the dance instructor is to milk the beginner cash cow, then so be it. Teach in a way that takes 6 months to 2 years to become an accomplished lead. 2 lessons per week x 26-104 weeks x cost of lesson = fortune
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You didn’t read what I said, did you?
Your response though 100% correct is misplaced. My quote in the response very clearly and unambiguously emphasized that good teachers in Salsa are “far and few”. It is better not to learn, than to learn from instructors who can’t teach or teach incorrectly.
I can assure you that most in those professions you mentioned don’t take continuous training or classes after graduation. They mostly gain experience on jobs which is like saying dancers learn on the dance floor. What the most who are good in their professions have is a good grasp of fundamentals and can revisit those on their own.
Take example of doctors. Many doctors get outdated very fast, such is the pace of increase in the advances in medical field. It is hard for a generalist and even a specialist to keep abreast of all the advances in their respective areas. Sure they attend conferences once or twice a year and have to appear for certification but the amount of time they can actually devote to “learning” or “training” is very tiny.
Contrast that with elite athletes in sports. Because they compete they have to train almost everyday.
One is more demanding physical skill and other is more demanding mental skill. We retain mental agility far easier than physical agility. Amount of “training” or “learning”; and where/how to gain it varies. Some skills require more training than other skills.
Jag75
Son Montuno
What a bizarre thing to say. Sorry.
I have been dancing over 12 years and continue to take classes (workshops etc). I still continue to learn.
When you social dance, you re-enforce stuff you've already learned. You don't really learn than much new stuff from social dancing. The reality is we *all* have some bad habits, even the very best dancers. As we social dance we're re-enforcing the good elements of our dancing, hence solidifying those skill, but we're also re-enforcing any bad habits we may have. The more classes and privates you take, the higher the ratio of good habits vs bad habits, but you re-enforce whatever you have of each when you go out social dancing. Sorry to say.
Why do you think professional tennis players continue getting coaching? Using your logic they don't need it, they simply would improve by playing tennis matches, and nothing more.
The attitude that you don't need classes when you reach a certain level is the reason people stagnate, they truly believe they "know it all". It's the height of arrogance, to be blunt.
Btw I hope you don't perceive this as me attacking you in any way - only your argument
This is about advanced dancers, who learn on the dance floor all the time. But also beginners do.
What classes taught you that, btw.?
For top sportsmen that I know of usually couches are not there to teach them how to perform. They usually do research, strategy, team coordination, motivation. Basically it's a team work to be ready at the right time. But top performers know what they are doing. Better than most people on the planet. Coaches have different role than they do with kids.
They would hire coaches for specific trainings of course as well. But that's usually temporary.
They would hire coaches for specific trainings of course as well. But that's usually temporary.
Sure, but after a certain level you'd probably need private lessons for this weeding to occur - time consuming and expensive. And anyway, developing the capacity to analyze and break down what you see both live and in videos (including being to identify mistakes!) is a useful skill to develop!
A lot of weird info. here.
No I don't think after reaching a certain level of social dancing will it be beneficial to take more classes to help you with social dancing.
If you want to improve technique, then yes classes will help you, but that is very specific.
Many advanced social dancers are already better than most teachers since they are dancing more often than teachers. There are exceptions of course, but pure social dancers spend more time developing their skills on the dance floor and rightfully so.
I am not saying that you shouldn't take classes, but as you get better, you get diminishing returns on classes.
This is also true for learning languages. Once you reach fluency, you basically acquire the ability to learn on your own and spending money on private teachers is a waste or at best a marginal gain.
This is not arrogance. It's reality.
No I don't think after reaching a certain level of social dancing will it be beneficial to take more classes to help you with social dancing.
If you want to improve technique, then yes classes will help you, but that is very specific.
Many advanced social dancers are already better than most teachers since they are dancing more often than teachers. There are exceptions of course, but pure social dancers spend more time developing their skills on the dance floor and rightfully so.
I am not saying that you shouldn't take classes, but as you get better, you get diminishing returns on classes.
This is also true for learning languages. Once you reach fluency, you basically acquire the ability to learn on your own and spending money on private teachers is a waste or at best a marginal gain.
This is not arrogance. It's reality.
sunchoboy
Changui
I would say if this person can find useful help instead it also counts.
So they can use different instruments in order to improve.
I think everybody here will agree that going to a beginner class is a way to improve, going to an advanced class is also a way to improve. So are observing and analysing while social dancing. So are individual lessons. I would even add practicing on your own.
My opinion is that you don't have to use all of the instruments effectively in order to become a good social dancer. I very rarely use individual lessons and analysing while social dancing (I am only a 3-years-old dancer though and local classes have become considerably less effective last months, so it can change.)
As I understand Smejmoon, Offbeat, LarsM are more of self teaching party. On the other hand Jag75 and Francisco Fiko tend to use lessons to improve.
In my experience things almost always happen the other way round. Leading is difficult - it takes most people a long time to become even semi-proficient. Even with good teaching it simply takes a long time to build the necessary confidence. Learning the rhythm is the easy part.
Nothing is more frustrating than being a musician and hearing the rhythm but not being able to move to it.
It not about single approach. I just joined the thread because there was a hint that going to marathons will not help dancers to improve. This is just not true. You can't become good social dancer, if you don't go out and don't dance. You can, if you don't take classes.
Couple years ago I actually talked to professional dancer about her struggles on the dance floor. She could then and can now dance circles around most dancers, but it took her couple years of social dancing, till she felt comfortable and was really good on the dance floor.