Francisco Fiko
Son
True, most beginners lack experience or knowledge, but sometimes just going by gut feeling a beginner can spot a toxic (or simply unprofessional) teacher and avoid a lot of useless hardship.
Is hardship really part of the process of learning salsa?
- Thread starter Francisco Fiko
- Start date
True, most beginners lack experience or knowledge, but sometimes just going by gut feeling a beginner can spot a toxic (or simply unprofessional) teacher and avoid a lot of useless hardship.
Francisco Fiko
Son
Wow! Common sense!
Francisco Fiko
Son
It certainly may appear to be nothing new to learn for an advanced salsa dancer or teacher after 10 years, especially when he looks in all the wrong places such as youtube, advanced workshops, the so called master classes, salsa marathons and such. It is by looking at beginner classes by experienced teachers that fundamental concepts can be revisited an re-learned with different perspectives that eventually can change the way one dances or teaches.
But try to convince an advanced dancer *sigh* to go to beginner class...
If I go to a class to learn dance X, I don't want to have my time wasted with dance Y. It needs to be realised that the majority of dancers, irrespective of level, have different likes and dislikes. This affects their motivation level.
Francisco Fiko
Son
If you are an advanced dancer looking for a better way to dance your advanced patterns the best way to find out what you may be missing is to revisit your fundamental technique to see if you did not miss something important in your hurry to go beyond the beginner level.
Some dancers go to salsa marathons with the misguided notion that hanging out with advanced dancers will somehow help them improve...
Francisco Fiko
Son
I understand how you may feel in this respect. But what if a teacher could prove to you that learning merengue first can save you time effort and money in your quest to become a good salsa dancer?
One cannot 'prove' something that simply isn't true.
Well, dancers who started with decent fundamentals in my experience turn out much better, than those who quickly learned some moves and then run through them. The latter usually lacks these basics even after years, never becoming decent dancers.
If the way to teach that includes doing some basic dance - i.e. Merengue - that is the way.
It probably is more fun than doing stepping training for months, because you actually can dance Merengue. Downside only is, that few venues play Merengue regularly.
If the way to teach that includes doing some basic dance - i.e. Merengue - that is the way.
It probably is more fun than doing stepping training for months, because you actually can dance Merengue. Downside only is, that few venues play Merengue regularly.
I have had several recent discussions with experienced dancers, not all of them Salsa specialists, about the reasons why people have a preference for certain dances over others ie what are the main reasons for variations in enthusiasm or motivation. One common factor is the 'feel' or character of a dance.
My personal opinion is that the way Salsa dancing feels is fundamentally different from Merengue. To me, they are as different as chalk and cheese. This is why it is incorrect to assume that learning Merengue will make someone a better Salsa dancer. For some people it will work, but for others it could put them off.
My personal opinion is that the way Salsa dancing feels is fundamentally different from Merengue. To me, they are as different as chalk and cheese. This is why it is incorrect to assume that learning Merengue will make someone a better Salsa dancer. For some people it will work, but for others it could put them off.
Francisco Fiko
Son
The truth in this matter is not as obvious as you conclude.
I have personally taught over twenty-one thousand students and have worked for a half a dozen dance studios where I had access to statistical information regarding how many lessons every student took, over what period of time, how many dances they tried, how far they got into each dance, how many times they renewed their programs, how many times and how often they re-oriented their program, how often they changed instructors, how often they tried amateur demonstrations, competitions, semi-pro auditions and how many became professional dancers and/or teachers.
Four of these studios made their reputations as being salsa specialists although they offered other partner dances. One of the other two had a pretty balanced salsa/latino/swing/tango/ballroom mix and the other one had a ballet/jazz/hip-hop/salsa blend.
In total, I had access to the learning history of about ninety-four thousand dancers. (It helps when your main job title is teacher trainer. Every teacher talked to me about all their students).
What became very obvious when analyzing all this data is that the average beginner student learning at least three dances (usually merengue bachata and salsa) did so at a slower rate than the average one dance (usually salsa) beginner student.
But the one-dance student had 10% more chances of dropping out during his first program (Those varied in length between 7 and 12 lessons) than the three dance student and 15 to 20 % more chances of dropping out during the second program. And by the end of the first year of lessons, only 10 to 12% of the original cohort of one dance students were still active and only a third of that number were dancing at a higher proficiency level than the three dance students, of whom, on average 80% of the original cohort was still dancing.
The result? If you are in the rare 3 to 4% of only salsa students who succeed, well congratulations! But about 88% of your fellow beginners are now going bowling or playing the bagpipes to pass their time. You go out dancing to latin clubs that play a blend of music and you have to sit out all the merengues and bachatas so you restrict yourself to salsa-only socials were you mingle with other dancers like you who wonder why the scene is getting stale and there is no new blood coming in.
If hardship is the reason why beginners drop out, we have here a good glimpse into maybe why some experience demoralizing difficulty and other don’t. I am not insinuating that this is the only reason but it is kind of evident…
If we make it our mission to look for differences, well, LA style and NY style are also as different as chalk and cheese, and let’s not even mention casino or timba!
Fortunately, professional teachers make it their job to look for similarities in what they teach, instead of differences. Merengue, Bachata, Cha-cha-cha ARE similar to salsa. They share so many elements that if they were human beings, and we checked their DNA, we could consider them cousins or half-brothers.
As for the fear of confusion or the preference of a “feel” when learning them, it depends entirely on the attitude of the students and their instructor. If we insist on looking for, learning and teaching differences; we certainly will transform an easy, pleasant task into an almost unbearable and complicated one. Salsa may appear complex in a vacuum. But put in the context of its close relation to other Latin dances, it becomes quite easy, especially if we already know some of its elements from another dance. Instead of putting their student’s nose to the grinder when they hit a snag, teachers can simply switch to another dance that helps the student focus on the element to be learned but with an easier rhythm or footwork.
Knowing advanced patterns does not make an advanced dancer by itself. I would also argue that it's pretty much impossible to perform many of the more advanced patterns without decent fundamentals, since so many of them will rely on good balance, spatial awareness, frame and so on (a subset of the necessary fundamentals for moving well). If we're talking about an "advanced" dancer who performs a lot of advanced patterns shoddily, then well. Sure.
It does, somewhat. I would argue that dancing with advanced dancers is one of the needed activities to getting better yourself, but of course, not nearly the only thing you need to do.
I know quite a few agree with this, but for me and many others the answer is simpler: the music. I LOVE salsa music (particularly the dura kind), whereas most other latin music styles are way less appealing (well, apart from cha), so what dance I chose gives itself. I see no reason to dance if I don't enjoy the music. I also tend to think a love of the music helps ensure the longevity of one's dance hobby.
Why would you even care to attract advanced dancers and teachers into beginner classes? Assuming they are already proficient, they will likely find such an option unappealing. It is more likely they will try something completely different or start their own school.
This is true for any festival/congress. You have many beginners going there with the intention of leveling up their dancing with more advanced dancers.
You make it sound like all of the above is a bad thing, when in reality, going to Festivals/Congresses/Marathons is a very good way to experience what it's like dancing with new people and getting out of your comfort zone.
Sometimes it's not so much about the dancing but about soaking up the Congress atmosphere, socializing with friends, and/or just travelling to a new place.
For a beginner, it is a worthwhile experience. People are attracted to shiny things. One of the shiniest things are festivals. This might even keep students attending YOUR classes, since usually when they get back, they are doubly motivated.
Hanging out will help some. The level of conversation can be deeper, you can get your questions answered, you can try things out instantly, you will get support and push. You'll get inspired.
Dancing with advanced dancers is the way to improve. Dancing next to advanced dancers is the way to improve. Observing and figuring out what advanced dancers do is the way to improve. If you pay attention.
Advanced social dancers level up by social dancing more, not by taking more classes.
This notion of taking more classes is silly and I suspect ulterior motives.
Quite a few advanced dancers take classes. There might be multiple explanations, but it's a fact.
I know some of them take classes in other dance styles or they train technique... but I've rarely come across "advanced salsa dancers" still taking pure salsa classes once they hit 10 year mark. Even 5 years.
Well, that's one benefit from hanging out with advanced dancers.
You get to know that some of them don't take classes and some do.As I wrote there are many explanations: Some are addicted to classes (and probably that's how they got good, though there are many multiyear students and even teachers who are hard to dance with). Some always strive to improve and know how to gain from even the worstest lessons. Some like to hang out in the environment. Some like to reinforce what they already know or see that from different perspective.
Francisco Fiko
Son
Agreed