Is hardship really part of the process of learning salsa?

[Chris_Yannick]

I believe that a well informed student can face a bad experience and avoid being negatively influenced by it and even turn such an episode into a positive growing experience.

I believe we think the same way. The part that is debatable is what constitutes being "well-informed?"

In Salsa dancing, I think it's a combination of teacher advice plus one's own personality make-up. Ideally it would be 50/50. However, I'm thinking it's more like 20/80. Yes, I put a large emphasis on a person's individual make-up and current range of experience that determines success.

Some people are extremely sensitive to adversity in dancing, so any small negative experience or feedback can set them on a downward spiral. It happened to my friend, however, was very unfortunate as the negative feedback he received occurred in-class (not from the teacher, but from a teacher's assistant). The seed was planted that he would always be a bad dancer who wouldn't be able to provide someone a good dance experience. From that point on, there was absolutely nothing the teacher could do as the damage had been done.

My friend is a successful man, extremely well educated (Harvard grad) and very sociable too. He even had the critical self-awareness of himself - to a fault - and knew that he wasn't a very good dancer. All it took was one negative comment to destroy his self-confidence.

It's totally possible that he could have persevered longer had he been given more support from his teacher, though sooner or later, I'm pretty sure the outcome would have been the same.

On the flipside, I know many others who persevered through hell and continued dancing. They were the ones who beat the odds. Through facing adversity and hardship, they found a way to turn negative experiences into a positive, but that's more due to their personality make-up and not the knowledge their teachers imparted onto them.

As for myself, I have lived a fairly charmed salsa life. So even though I advocate hardship as being necessary, I haven't experienced all that much myself.

However, with the hardship I did experience, my Salsa teachers could not help me with...

.....unless they were so versatile as to become my relationship therapist, career guidance counselor and medical doctor.

All I know is that the longer I dance, the easier it gets.

 

[Francisco Fiko]

...This works much better than trying moves taught in class, where I feel compelled to use them because I spent time and money...

You would see this differently if the end result of your classes was that you felt compelled to use them (the moves you learn there) because they work, they are easy to blend and they allow you to create...

 

[Francisco Fiko]

...Even if I had been warned about the various issues with beginner's hell as a leader (I wasn't), I would likely still find it fairly excruciating. Not finding the beat, trying not to hurt the follow/others through bad floorcraft, trying to remember anything but the basic, knowing how ridiculous my body movements looked and so forth - a warning will only go so far! And yet at the same time, the fairly early experience social dancing is necessary and invaluable.

I wasn't writing about A warning. I was writing about a teaching system that provides continuous support and counsel to help beginners (and the more advanced) throughout the learning process because as you say, the early experience social dancing is necessary and invaluable.

Teachers would do well to consider why students do not actively seek such counsel and support. Is it because they enjoy the hardship? Do they think that hardship makes their accomplishments more worthy? Is it because they are afraid to ask for help? If so, why? Have maybe some teachers created a learning environment where showing doubt or weakness is looked down upon?

 

[Francisco Fiko]

The range of experiences a student - or anyone for that matter - might encounter while social dancing is too broad and too varied. There are of course common experiences that can be found across many venues and that is why we have social dancing etiquette. As long as etiquette is followed, bad experiences can be limited. A teacher can impart knowledge based on common dance etiquette, but what a person feels based on personal values and beliefs is out of my scope to influence. So if someone wants to take rejection personally so as to create a toxic environment for him/herself as well as for others around them, then there's nothing I can do to change that...

Well hopefully the range of experiences the teacher has encountered while social dancing is also broad and varied. The fact that most students look up to their teacher not just because of their dancing prowess but also because of their system of values and beliefs cannot be discounted from the balance of influence instructors have on their student's attitude, within limits, of course.

...Students do not need to be coddled. Instead, as a teacher, give them the tools they need to become good dancers, and let the dancing speak on its own terms...

I do not advocate coddling students. But when a student registers for lessons, we should provide not only patterns, styling and technique, We should also provide perspective, insight and support. We can not make them dance or dance for them. But if we have already gone through the process, (in fact a good teacher is always going through the process), why should we keep our experience to ourselves?
It is also good from a business point of view. To quote Roger Staubach: "There are no traffic jams along the extra mile"

...As for the youtube video comment, there are those who put out very good content that have a positive impact on the lives of many students. It takes time to filter out the bad ones, but it's inevitable that many will turn to YT for guidance, so there's no point villifying an entire medium because it's here to stay whether we like it or not. Who knows, one day teachers might actually end up being replaced by Youtube or other future tech.

First point: you are right, there are some good, even excellent instructors on Youtube. Unfortunately the average quality of teaching is way below average, and there is no way for beginners to filter out the bad ones without some quality live instruction to compare to.
Second point: As long as dancing remains a thoroughly human endeavour, the need for human interaction in it will never disappear. There is no replacement for a Mark I pair of human eyeballs on a student for diagnosing what has to be taught and the flexibility of a human mind to adapt a teaching vehicle to transmit the needed information.

 

[elanimal]

IMO salsa is especially 'difficult' because practice absolutely, positively requires another human being, especially in the case of leaders.

When I practice basketball, I can practice a lot of skills by myself.
When I study for a test, I can study by myself, in pajamas in my own living room.

All learning, whether salsa, basketball, biochemistry or physics requires practice and repetition.

Getting your reps in when it comes to salsa is actually really difficult unless you have:

a. a group of like minded people who meet up to practice more than once a week for more than one hour (rare)
b. a patient friend, significant other, etc to practice consistently with
c. the means to afford going out to several nights a week, not just once a week, whether it be financially or having the time available to go out weeknights
c1. living in the right city such that a high concentration of dedicated dancers attends weekly nights, more than just Fridays and/or Saturdays
d. the financial means to pay for private lessons to practice with a teacher consistently, or have a teacher 'willing to help you out'

Notice these are activities all outside of class, where the things a student learns can be applied.

A teacher cannot force a student to do any of this, it all comes from their own intrinsic motivation.

I'm sure I'm missing some.

The point is simple. Salsa requires practice and spaced repetition like anything else. But the unique logistical challenges of requiring at least one partner to apply what we've learned makes salsa really hard.

Last but not least, many people have biases against learning how to social dance. Investing time, effort, and money into what should be a 'spontaneous, social activity,' as many people expect social dancing to be, is a significant mental hurdle for many people. This can delay a person 'taking it seriously' and grabbing the bull by the horns. It makes people more hesitant to take control over their own learning, as all the steps detailed above required. Overcoming that stigma is nothing to sneeze at.

Oh yea, it really helps to love the music. And honestly, not a lot of people do.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Well hopefully the range of experiences the teacher has encountered while social dancing is also broad and varied. The fact that most students look up to their teacher not just because of their dancing prowess but also because of their system of values and beliefs cannot be discounted from the balance of influence instructors have on their student's attitude, within limits, of course.

I have this feeling that you are promoting a very idealistic view of salsa dancing.

If students are going to look up to their teacher beyond their dance skills and look into their personal system of values, they are playing with fire and will get burned. I do not want to adopt my teacher's personal value system. In fact, I don't want to know what they believe at all.

IMO, the best teachers do not impart personal values onto their students. We're getting into very murky territory here. Some teachers have an agenda and you won't know it until you are basically indoctrinated, then it's too late. You've already adopted their value system.

I pay a teacher to teach me how to dance and that's it. If they want to go over some basic etiquette, fine.

More than that and you begin to see how many teachers push their hidden agendas.

I would recommend any beginner to not stick to one teacher, but try many different teachers. Don't get sucked into to this "one teacher is best" line of thinking because you are only getting one perspective and that's bad.

 

[sunsoul]

I do think that in salsa it is a bit like being thrown into a pit of snakes. People generally don’t help each other and for leads you just soldier on..

When you look at other dances they seem to have better support networks and in tango you often practise a lot with one particular person even during socials. You seem to get more time to practise and you are not jumping around from one stranger to another constantly..

 

[MrR]

And this snake pit is maybe the worst thing about Salsa, the one thing, that lessens it's long time value, related to other dances and which keeps many scenes - where the pit is very dominant - down.
If we want to stop people leaving after a short time, we should work towards a more friendly, supporting but also protective community.
And everybody tolerating this snake pit is thereby supporting it.

 

[1derpalm]

And this snake pit is maybe the worst thing about Salsa, the one thing, that lessens it's long time value, related to other dances and which keeps many scenes - where the pit is very dominant - down.
If we want to stop people leaving after a short time, we should work towards a more friendly, supporting but also protective community.
And everybody tolerating this snake pit is thereby supporting it.

I agree
ot seems to be "oh well that's how it is. Which is B.S. Moar of the good leafs I find snobby (I'm a lead). A very small handful are friendly and helpful. Must be alpha male $h!t. I'm friendly with everyone (unless they snub me) and I had 2 leads say they were taken a back by my friendliness because leads in my 300 km radius scene (5 cities) are competitive and not friendly with each other on the the whole. It f☆%@ing stupid. If I was more prominent in the scene I'd be giving a piece of my mind more.

 

[Offbeat]

Outside of the festivals, dancing whether salsa or anyother is local. Local experiences can vary depending on the scene. With time, the experience in the same scene changes. Overall salsa (and social dancing) is a very tiny community compared to many other activisty groups and hobbies. There are probably more people who run marathons and iron man than those who dance modern salsa and go to socials, as an active hobby.

I would recommend any beginner to not stick to one teacher, but try many different teachers. Don't get sucked into to this "one teacher is best" line of thinking because you are only getting one perspective and that's bad.

Not everyone has the luxury of multiple options. In the non-metro cities, options may be limited to one or or two schools/instructors (neither of which are good). Whereas a single dedicated instructor in a small city can make a big difference. At the starting out stage the beginners don’t have enough experience or knowledge to tell a good instructor from a bad one. There is also a peer influence at play if when they go to group classes.

[="sunsoul, post: 346180, member: 9071"]I do think that in salsa it is a bit like being thrown into a pit of snakes. People generally don’t help each other and for leads you just soldier on..

When you look at other dances they seem to have better support networks and in tango you often practise a lot with one particular person even during socials. You seem to get more time to practise and you are not jumping around from one stranger to another constantly..[/QUOTE]

Depends on location and the size of scene. Tango generally is far more snobbish and elitist than salsa. It is also much harder on the beginner leader than Salsa. Head over to the tango section of dance forums and you will find multiple threads about difficulty of getting dances.

I agree
ot seems to be "oh well that's how it is. Which is B.S. Moar of the good leafs I find snobby (I'm a lead). A very small handful are friendly and helpful. Must be alpha male $h!t. I'm friendly with everyone (unless they snub me) and I had 2 leads say they were taken a back by my friendliness because leads in my 300 km radius scene (5 cities) are competitive and not friendly with each other on the the whole. It f☆%@ing stupid. If I was more prominent in the scene I'd be giving a piece of my mind more.

Depends on the location?

Whether locally or when traveling or at the festivals, I always found other men friendly and easy to interact with. If you ask, most will also point out good dancers and make introductions.

From your description,your scene sounds toxic.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

And everybody tolerating this snake pit is thereby supporting it.

Moar of the good leafs I find snobby

Whether locally or when traveling or at the festivals, I always found other men friendly and easy to interact with. If you ask, most will also point out good dancers and make introductions.

My experience is a mix of what everyone said.

Where I learned Salsa, the leads were generally very helpful. Coming from a large metropolis where there were tons of options for learning salsa, I would say I encountered many more friendly advanced males than in cities here in Europe, which is odd since it is so follower heavy here I'd expect males to be more tolerant and open towards other leads... Nope. There are so many possessive, insecure guys here it's unreal.... and they have so many options!

Even when I traveled around Europe in follower dominant cities, it was generally the same. I met many friendly females but very few friendly males. The males who were friendly were often the DJs and major players, but I did not gain access to these people until I started to become better. Of course, some people will call this "elitism". There is definitely a healthy amount of it in the scene. Unfortunately, the reality is that if people perceive you as high value in the dance scene, they will want to include you into their circles.

But you don't have to be a good dancer in order to infiltrate theses circles. A little bit of social networking skills go a long way. Great social skills trump great dancing skills any day of the week.

I believe many good dancers are more socially inept compared to their dancing skills and this leads to scenes becoming toxic, unfriendly and snobby.

On the flipside, we have our own perceptions which we project onto others.
"You see that guy over there? He only dances with the pretty, young girls!"
"That girl dances with just the good dancers... SNOB!"

Most of the time, if we just went up and said hi to these people we label as "toxic", they aren't all that bad. I'm sure that most everyone would be friendly in a one-on-one conversation or even at a non-salsa party.

It's just impossible get to know everybody on a personal level since most of us are so concentrated on the dancing.

People wear masks. Not everyone is willing to take them off for you. Some will try to remain "Alpha" and purposely snub you. Yes, it gets tiresome after a while and it used to turn me off from Salsa.

There's no all purpose solution. As a lead, I do my best to be nice and inclusive, but you can't please everyone. Sometimes you need to be a little selfish and not try to please everyone.

 

[Offbeat]

Unfortunately, the reality is that if people perceive you as high value in the dance scene, they will want to include you into their circles.

But you don't have to be a good dancer in order to infiltrate theses circles. A little bit of social networking skills go a long way. Great social skills trump great dancing skills any day of the week.

Both of above are true in all walks of life. Better social skills will always make you more popular and get you more dances.

You would think being better at dancing and higher percieved value will go hand in hand. It doesn't, unless you exploit and leverage being a better dancer in social sphere.

As a lead I recently learnt that being a better lead can also intimidates follower. A follower who is now a friend was telling me how six or seven years back she would try to avoid being asked by me because she felt intimidated.

 

[MrR]

You would think being better at dancing and higher percieved value will go hand in hand. It doesn't, unless you exploit and leverage being a better dancer in social sphere.

I have over time created a model of what - by my observation - decides your popularity as a dance partner, 4 levels. Seems like we are on the same trail there:

1. personal relationship
2. social status
3. physical attractiveness
4. dance skill

The lower on the list are capable of upgrading the others, i.e. having a good dance skill can increase your status, but the status will not increase your dance skill (directly).
Also the individual weighting varies, but the numbering usually keeps the same. Just the effect that the skill or the looks have on the personal relationship or status varies greatly - between nearly nothing (skill does not matter a lot in many cliques or for the usual creep) to core (looks are everything or some people - specially really advanced dancers - really dig special skills).


There can be interesting situations, due to the different weighting.
Often I fail the face check of beginners or the status check of mid level follows, while the really strong follows in the scene are all over me. That then increases my status and suddenly the girls that before were too good for dancing with me changed their mind.
Yet they do not ask me because I dance good, they ask me, because the higher ranked females approved of me. And when the higher ranked females are really about status and looks and don't much about dance skill themselves, you cannot enter the clique (as a guy) simply by dancing well.

 

[terence]

A follower who is now a friend was telling me how six or seven years back she would try to avoid being asked by me because she felt intimidated.

I've had similar experiences, but one particular one comes to mind.

It was in Tampa at the most popular latin club. I asked a lady to dance and she refused.. Normally, I never ask again. However, about 2 years later I broke my rule and she said yes. I asked her why she refused back when, her answer was " I didn't think I was good enough ! ".. She was actually one of the best and finished up assisting me in the club dance lessons .

 

[Joco]

Not everyone has the luxury of multiple options. In the non-metro cities, options may be limited to one or or two schools/instructors (neither of which are good). Whereas a single dedicated instructor in a small city can make a big difference. At the starting out stage the beginners don’t have enough experience or knowledge to tell a good instructor from a bad one. There is also a peer influence at play if when they go to group classes.

This is very true in Europe. I've experienced it in a number of smaller towns in several countries.

I think it goes without saying, but I will say it anyways regarding this discussion and some others recent threads in this section. I think, as a SF community, our view is rather biased on many non-technical topics (especially when we discuss scenes, inter-personal relationships, dance communities, and development of students). The typical participant in a salsa class or social in whichever scene is not so much into salsa that they debate/discuss (argue?) various topics regarding the dance and the music on an internet forum with strangers . Same for the vast majority of actually motivated students and dance enthusiasts.

 

[Offbeat]

I think, as a SF community, our view is rather biased on many non-technical topics (especially when we discuss scenes, inter-personal relationships, dance communities, and development of students). The typical participant in a salsa class or social in whichever scene is not so much into salsa that they debate/discuss (argue?) various topics regarding the dance and the music on an internet forum with strangers . Same for the vast majority of actually motivated students and dance enthusiasts.

Very true. Many passionate dancers and enthusiasts (those who are putting in a lot of time to practice and hone their skills) aren't that interested becoming knowledgeable about things that get discussed on the SF. That is evident by how very few participate on the salsa forums. Most of the time if any searches for something related to salsa dancing, the salsa forums threads usually show up among the top results.

Our views will be biased because they are shaped by our respective experiences. When it comes to inter-personal relationships, dance communities, and other non-technical topics, no two people will have same views.

 

[SnowDancer]

This was the key for me. I went out few times a week. Again I was fortunate that at that time SF area had very good social dancing scene and some fabulous social dancers. I would watch and observe them every single time I was out social dancing. Knowingly or unknowingly, consciously or unconsciously, I must have picked up many clues about what it is to be a good social dancer.

I think we tend to pick up what we're immersed in. That may also be why the NY scene is so strong. I didn't feel the same about my scene, where it didn't seem like there were that many good dancers on the floor. So when Youtube started getting dance videos, it was a great opportunity for me.

 

[bailar y tocar]

The "hardship", "beginner's hell" and frustration varies a lot based on the prior experience of a dancer.

I started out in ballroom dancing as a teenager. In ballroom they have professionally trained teachers. They told us where a foot goes, where a hand goes, where they don't go and voila we were connected in a frame. The next part was to learn how to move >which< part of your body >when< as in there is a sound and where you should be when the sound is heard and when it is gone and voila we were moving to a rhythm. The rest is easy. If salsa instructors started out like that and were to teach to merengue or other simple rhythm at first, most beginners would advance at a much faster rate.

When I learned to dance salsa 20 years later, I already knew how to lead patterns to other rhythms, i.e. cha cha cha, waltz, foxtrot. Learning the syncopation of salsa was the hard part, learning to lead was not hard as I already did that.

My recommendation to beginners: find a teacher who knows how to teach partner dance (preferably an easy dance), then switch to a more complex musical genre like salsa. I do not know or can imagine how you guys could possibly learn how to lead and learn the rhythm at the same time. Is that even possible ?

 

[Aurel]

I do not know or can imagine how you guys could possibly learn how to lead and learn the rhythm at the same time. Is that even possible ?

I learned about rhythm thanks to the Music 4 Dancers series (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSyNG8HVu4YH4kkYFdYNc2w) by the @UnlikelySalsero . I think I was never actually really taught what it means to lead, I was just lucky that it kinda clicked and I was good at it. I blame that on my long years at gym and the resulting body awareness. But I guess it did to a certain degree happen on the same time, it just came from different sources.

 

[Offbeat]

I do not know or can imagine how you guys could possibly learn how to lead and learn the rhythm at the same time. Is that even possible ?

These are two distinct skills for brain to learn. Learning one doesn't help with the other. The third skill which you implied but didn't call out was how to move to the rhythm you have learnt. While most salsa dancers eventually learn the rhythm and how to lead (though poorly), compare to other partner dances they are mostly remain poor at the "dancing" or "moving" to the rhythm part for a long time. That is not surprising given the complex poly-rhythmic structure of salsa music.

You are largely correct. Since the salsa instructors that most salsa folks learn from, don't have any formal training in how to teach dancing (esp partner dancing, like the ballroom teachers do), the instructors themselves are not aware of how to break down partner dancing for lead and follow roles. Except for a few who have formal training or are extremely talented or have learnt their own dancing from formally trained teachers - most instructors are following do what you see me do approach. In tango world I have observed the Russian Tango instructors (most of whom were former ballroom or ballet dancers) are much better at breaking down and teach intricate technical details which most "long time dancers turned instructors" (they are able to dance elegantly but not teach) from BsAs are unable to do. The difference between Salsa and other social dancers is that the others (e.g. Tango and WCS) continue to train and learn and take workshop, even after dancing for 10-15 years. Salsa dancers stop taking classes and workshops (including yours truly) because there is not much new to learn after a certain stage and those who can & do teach something that improves one's salsa dancing are far and few.