Failure to Learn On2

[Smejmoon]

Difficult to assess, but results speak the loudest.

I have danced with Toan's students. Never met one of yours yet.

 

[SalsaGipsy]

The 1st objective is,, to get them to recognise that "2" is clearly defined, irrespective of the genre.
But there again , how the hell would I know, after only dancing/teaching it, for over 50yrs .

Sure, that's your first objective.

What I am talking about is getting the students to hear that 2 is accented so that they can see how steps fit in the music. Whether or not I also want to introduce them to yet another dance that accents the 4 is beside the point.

 

[vit]

I think its got to be a combination of time and training. Difficult to assess, but results speak the loudest.

Agree with that.
Out of instructors I came in touch with, those that I would classify as acceptable had 5 or more years of teaching experience. Those few that I would classify as great had more than 10 and were/are teaching all around the world ...

 

[Kading]

Agree with that.
Out of instructors I came in touch with, those that I would classify as acceptable had 5 or more years of teaching experience. Those few that I would classify as great had more than 10 and were/are teaching all around the world ...

I agree, I rarely got a good private lesson with a instructor who was relatively young in the field. They just didn't know where to look.

One thing almost every instructor has in common (in group lessons) is a lack of business awareness though. I'm a customer paying for your service. You should threat me like any other business and thank me for participating your lessons. Not act like the students should be grateful for their presence and valuable advice *Cough*.

 

[vit]

I actually don't see a big need to have "arguments" besides our opinions on this forum. People who post here are not paid for that nor they take any responsibility for what they write. Readers are free to decide which opinions are valuable for them and which are not

 

[Chris F]

Most of our regular students love dancing On2 and have loads of fun. The average level of On2 dancers in London is much higher than On1 i.e. On2 dancers are generally more experienced, can compensate better, less judgemental and more playful, musical etc. These are things that we encourage also in our students.

It is the same locally. Due to the total dominance of On1 you really have to go out of your way to learn On2 so only the advanced/well experienced dancers do it.

So as an On2 learner you won't be able to get many dances On2 but those you do get will be quality ones.

 

[MAMBO_CEC]

nor they take any responsibility for what they write. Readers are free to decide which opinions are valuable for them and which are not

Naw,don't agree with the first part of the above mate!!! I always take responsibilty for what I write, and when I am wrong or proved wrong, I will try of apologise. I agree with what you said about the readers though and I hope that is what they are doing, mind you it does seem there are a few experts on the SF.

 

[toan-hoang]

It is the same locally. Due to the total dominance of On1 you really have to go out of your way to learn On2 so only the advanced/well experienced dancers do it.
So as an On2 learner you won't be able to get many dances On2 but those you do get will be quality ones.

The trend (which has been encouraged by instructors here) is to learn On1 first, get to an advanced level and then try On2.

We are slowly changing that by teaching only On2 and to fresh beginners, in essence building an On2 scene. Once we open a few more clubs during the week as a student you would be able to stay On2 at all levels

 

[hyh]

For those who can dance On1 competently, all you need is motivation, practice and time to become proficient with On2. With a student with all 3, it will work out eventually. People don't drop out of On2 program because it's too hard but because of lack of motivation and/or practice and time (or persistence) IMO. People drop out of On2 because they are happy with status quo. Immersion is not necessary. Ditto bootcamps, workshops, etc., which often is just a marketing gimmick. An instructor in a group setting cannot determine motivation or time for the student and usually very little on practice - after all you generally can only dance with one person at a time. Maybe you can foster an environment where the student can practice what was taught or perhaps bring enthusiasm and dedication (maybe it'd infect students), but there is no magic bullet.

BTW, your summary below IMO is not particularly useful or illuminating.

To summarise the 5 things that stop people from learning On2 are:

- They [are] still primarily dancing On1
- They are focused on moves, shines or styling
- They let ego get in the way of learning
- They learn from On1 instructors
- They only go to bootcamps

From those that have successfully added the ability to dance On2 they have:

- Immersed themselves in Salsa On2
- They appreciate the fundamental differences
- They understand that they will need to take a few steps back in order to go forward.
- They find instructors that know and teach On2 on a regular basis
- They use bootcamps and workshops to supplement their constant dancing of On2.

 

[toan-hoang]

For those who can dance On1 competently, all you need is motivation, practice and time to become proficient with On2. With a student with all 3, it will work out eventually. People don't drop out of On2 program because it's too hard but because of lack of motivation and/or practice and time (or persistence) IMO. People drop out of On2 because they are happy with status quo. Immersion is not necessary. Ditto bootcamps, workshops, etc., which often is just a marketing gimmick. An instructor in a group setting cannot determine motivation or time for the student and usually very little on practice - after all you generally can only dance with one person at a time. Maybe you can foster an environment where the student can practice what was taught or perhaps bring enthusiasm and dedication (maybe it'd infect students), but there is no magic bullet.

BTW, your summary below IMO is not particularly useful or illuminating.

Interesting enough though, I have seen a very large number people try On2 and failed for many reasons i.e. not becoming or giving up on being a comfortable On2 dancer.

There are reasons why they have failed is what I have written about (I am sure there are others). All of these dancers started the journey to becoming an On2 dancer with exact what you have described motivation, the will to practice and time made available. But these are not infinite resources and if you don't get a return on investment then you drop out.

This article is about learning from past mistakes and real world observations and making sure that others get the benefits.

The final summary gives a overview of the article and as such I have seen hundreds of people attending monthly On2 conversion bootcamps or focusing on higher level partnerwork. All of which drop out eventually.

Do you think that people just give up trying to dance On2 and just stick to On1? what do you think the reasons are? what advice would you give to people who want to learn On2? How would you help them? What is your summary?

 

[hyh]

Most of your main article is fine as your personal observation - anecdotal but potentially useful for a thoughtful new person trying out On2. It's your summary I didn't like. I'll counter your list of 5 things that stop people from learning On2. It does not work as a general list.

- They [are] still primarily dancing On1
.......... they can dance mostly On1 while becoming proficient dancing On2
- They are focused on moves, shines or styling
.......... this has little effect on becoming proficient dancing On2
- They let ego get in the way of learning
.......... probably true for some people, but I cannot consider this a general reason
- They learn from On1 instructors
.......... it's the expertise that matters rather than whether they also teach On1 or not. For example, you cannot disqualify someone who teaches both salsa and tango from teaching tango just because they also teach salsa.
- They only go to bootcamps
.......... of course you cannot become proficient just going to bootcamps, but you can also say "they only go to lessons" etc

The things you need to learn On2 is not very different than learning a (new) dance - you state this in your main article - except that having mastered On1 or any other dance can help with learning On2 (with caveat that there are things that will hinder progress as well). I cannot imagine making a general list that is specific to On2 because the really important things for learning On2 would be useful also for improving your overall dancing.

 

[Offbeat]

I see beginners learning on2 in San Francisco. I will have to start asking how well it works out for them in the on1 clubs.

From leading perspective, most on1 followers will follow okiesh on2. Okiesh enough not to ruin the dance. There are only very very few on1 followers who whose muscle memory fights them when you put them on2. I don't know how it works for on2 followers dancing in on1 club. But I think they too can follow on1 lead fine.

 

[DJ Yuca]

I have been dancing less than 10 years, teaching a little over 5, experimental and looking for new ideas all the time - I guess that rubs your I-know-it-all-and-my-traditional-this-is-how-it-is-done approach wrong.

To add to Smejmoon's point, I have not met or seen any of your students. Oh actually, I met a few at congresses who have taken privates from you and are complete confused about timing and dance, feed them too much theory? not enough practical stuff? Actually, given you have been teaching for 50 years? have you developed any teachers that I might have met? or are there any dance companies formed from ex students? 50 years? That is the validation that would be nice, no?

Toan:

1. Is there film of you and/or your students dancing?

2. Where did you gain your dance knowledge, and from who?

3. What bands have you seen live?

4. Have you ever been to a Latin club?

 

[toan-hoang]

The things you need to learn On2 is not very different than learning a (new) dance - you state this in your main article - except that having mastered On1 or any other dance can help with learning On2 (with caveat that there are things that will hinder progress as well). I cannot imagine making a general list that is specific to On2 because the really important things for learning On2 would be useful also for improving your overall dancing.

Interesting, we definitely have different opinions on this.

- They [are] still primarily dancing On1
.......... they can dance mostly On1 while becoming proficient dancing On2
We complete disagree here. Muscle memory is the biggest thing to overcome and by continually dancing On1 you won't get this out of your system. I have seen this to be the case for most of the people that have tried On2.

- They are focused on moves, shines or styling
.......... this has little effect on becoming proficient dancing On2
Actually this has a big effect on learning On2. Learning On2 is about understanding the rhythm and fundamentals. You cannot learn the fundamentals of this dance through doing the high level stuff - which too many people run towards.

- They let ego get in the way of learning
.......... probably true for some people, but I cannot consider this a general reason
The majority of On1 dancers who have been dancing a while will have ego's built (this is not a bad thing) which has to be controlled in order to really aid learning. If I was to learn Tango I would be happy being a pure beginner until the instructor moves me up. Not too many On1 dancers are trying to learn On2 will come with this mind set. The problem is that most people don't realise that egos exist and when learning On2 the ego gets in the way.

- They learn from On1 instructors
.......... it's the expertise that matters rather than whether they also teach On1 or not. For example, you cannot disqualify someone who teaches both salsa and tango from teaching tango just because they also teach salsa.
We disagree here as well. Their are subtitles that exist within each dance which are not transferable. Practice makes perfect, even for teachers, so therefore those that are focused On2 will generally be better On2 teachers. A lot of the On1 teachers that I have seen teaching On2 are basically just doing partner work.

- They only go to bootcamps
.......... of course you cannot become proficient just going to bootcamps, but you can also say "they only go to lessons" etc
This does sound like common sense, and I agree that this is an "of course" moment, but common sense really isn't common as I see this far too often. I should replace this to attend regular classes (which I think is what you need) as well as regularly dancing On2.

 

[toan-hoang]

Toan:

1. Is there film of you and/or your students dancing?

2. Where did you gain your dance knowledge, and from who?

3. What bands have you seen live?

4. Have you ever been to a Latin club?

1. Is there film of you and/or your students dancing?
You can YouTube me. Quite a few are members of this forum.

2. Where did you gain your dance knowledge, and from who?
All over and every where. Travelling, Congresses, Workshops, Classes... pretty much all over.

3. What bands have you seen live?
Quite a few, but not more than 30 different bands. We don't get that much in Europe.

4. Have you ever been to a Latin club?
Yep, I find them particularly uninteresting.

A strange set of questions. Can I ask why you ask?

 

[DJ Yuca]

1. Is there film of you and/or your students dancing?
You can YouTube me. Quite a few are members of this forum.

Will do.

3. What bands have you seen live?
Quite a few, but not more than 30 different bands. We don't get that much in Europe.

What I meant was: have you seen bands that are famous (i.e. within the world of mambo and salsa)?

4. Have you ever been to a Latin club?
Yep, I find them particularly uninteresting.

Indeed.

A strange set of questions. Can I ask why you ask?

Reading you asking Terence to provide some sort of external validation, it occurred to me that I know quite a bit about him (and have seen film of him dance), whereas I know little about you. Thanks for the insight.

 

[toan-hoang]

Famous artist/bands, I guess: La Excellencia, El Gran Combo, Other smaller bands and artist like Charlie and Eddie Palmieri, Victor Manuelle, Ray La Paz, Oscar D'Leon, Larry Harlow. We don't get as much over here :'(

I could not care less about Terrence validating himself (or any one validating themselves). It was mentioned by Smejmoon and it was a good point. Terrence keeps on claiming that he has been teaching for 50 years - so I am naturally curious. I just prefer an answer that doesn't include an age.

I did actually Google Terrence but could not find anything about him, on YouTube or Google, especially given that he has been teaching longer that Eddie Torres...

 

[DJ Yuca]

Famous artist/bands, I guess: La Excellencia, El Gran Combo, Other smaller bands and artist like Charlie and Eddie Palmieri, Victor Manuelle, Ray La Paz, Oscar D'Leon, Larry Harlow. We don't get as much over here :'(

I could not care less about Terrence validating himself (or any one validating themselves). It was mentioned by Smejmoon and it was a good point. Terrence keeps on claiming that he has been teaching for 50 years - so I am naturally curious. I just prefer an answer that doesn't include an age.

I did actually Google Terrence but could not find anything about him, on YouTube or Google, especially given that he has been teaching longer that Eddie Torres...

I can't see how Oscar D is smaller than La Excelencia (except physically!), but nice list regardless. Believe me, you get a lot more bands in London than we do in the Mids.

Re. Terence: there was a bio of him online, however for some reason the site it was on (Salsa Central) has pulled all written articles. There are also a few brief clips of him dancing:

 

[MAMBO_CEC]

I can't see how Oscar D is smaller than La Excelencia (except physically!), but nice list regardless. Believe me, you get a lot more bands in London than we do in the Mids.

Re. Terence: there was a bio of him online, however for some reason the site it was on (Salsa Central) has pulled all written articles. There are also a few brief clips of him dancing:

I saw that one as well!!! And if I am not mistaken in one of the clips he said some words about the evolution of the mambo!!!Terence how could you?

 

[salsamarty]

From leading perspective, most on1 followers will follow okiesh on2. Okiesh enough not to ruin the dance. There are only very very few on1 followers who whose muscle memory fights them when you put them on2. I don't know how it works for on2 followers dancing in on1 club. But I think they too can follow on1 lead fine.

If they don't know the difference between on1 or on2 then they are probably going to Okiesh either way. I know what you mean.