Failure to Learn On2

[MAMBO_CEC]

Someone said motivation ...yeah that's the thing...why bother with On2 ? I had a spell of practicing On2 but gave up because I couldn't see the point. After 12 years of On1 it's a challenge but not having a clue about the rewards apart from other people saying how good it is I just can't be bothered anymore. I wonder about those who switch, if they did because it puts them in the elite class. Are they really enjoying their dancing more or is it the Emperors New Clothes?

Yep for me motivation was a big part to learn also I was able to broaden my horizons. I like to travel for Salsa/mambo, on my second trip to New York I got dissed big time by a follow,because I could only dance On1, that was my motivation, also I was lucky that the circle of friends I had at the time,all wanted to dance On2 and had connections in the NY scene so they could sponsor people to come out here to have workshops, I'll be the first to admit that there was some snob effect of joining the On2 club, but that in my mind it is very minor, especially if you're in an environment where there are tons of follows who can ,but not that many leads. Am I really enjoying my dancing more, heck yes, I can go to any congress world wide and dance with both On1 and On2 dancers,makes for a wide variety of dancers, but as Toan said this not a On1 vs On2 discussion, whatever is your preference enjoy it, and after all for me it's just a preference.

 

[GForce85]

Someone said motivation ...yeah that's the thing...why bother with On2 ? I had a spell of practicing On2 but gave up because I couldn't see the point. After 12 years of On1 it's a challenge but not having a clue about the rewards apart from other people saying how good it is I just can't be bothered anymore. I wonder about those who switch, if they did because it puts them in the elite class. Are they really enjoying their dancing more or is it the Emperors New Clothes?

I'll let any On2 Supremacists speak for themselves haha, but for me adding on2 did make me enjoy dancing more. The main reason is that although I don't have a major preference in general (I do generally have one on a song by song basis, but I'm flexible about it), other people do have a major preference in general, and it's more fun to dance with people in whichever style they're most comfortable with if you can. Now if you're not near any areas where there are a lot of on2 dancers or you don't get a lot of visitors to your area who are on2 dancers then maybe it isn't worth it for you to learn. But if you are then I'd say give it another go; no one says you have to switch over (I didn't), it's just a nice ability to have if you have the opportunity to use it every now and then.

 

[nowhiteshoes]

Personally, I think on2 is loads better than on1. I just don't think on1 is much good.

 

[SalsaGipsy]

Having in mind how many people who say they prefer dancing on2 dance off time or robotically with no sign that they are hearing anything more than a metronome, then, yes, vanity much be a strong factor

 

[Sabrosura]

Having in mind how many people who say they prefer dancing on2 dance off time or robotically with no sign that they are hearing anything more than a metronome, then, yes, vanity much be a strong factor

Lol we are opening Pandora's box... (Sorry, Toan, I tried to remind people that this is not a on1/on2 debate...)
What does that mean about the fact that most (*not all*) on1 dancers dance like pattern machines to metronomes and even will tell you in no vague terms that music is nothing but a beat machine? At least on2 dancers are (generally) thinking about the music even if many (maybe most) are not good enough to reflect it in their dancing at the level they would like to. Ask 100 on1 dancers to point out the congas (or any other percussion instrument) in a song and see how many can answer.

 

[vit]

Problem is when someone is on1 dancer and is dancing like pattern machine, but is trying dancing on2, looking even 10x worse, but is convinced that on2 is better. Unfortunately, not his on2, but someone else's ...

 

[Kading]

Lol we are opening Pandora's box... (Sorry, Toan, I tried to remind people that this is not a on1/on2 debate...)
What does that mean about the fact that most (*not all*) on1 dancers dance like pattern machines to metronomes and even will tell you in no vague terms that music is nothing but a beat machine? At least on2 dancers are (generally) thinking about the music even if many (maybe most) are not good enough to reflect it in their dancing at the level they would like to. Ask 100 on1 dancers to point out the congas (or any other percussion instrument) in a song and see how many can answer.

Best way to remind people is to simply not reply to those posts

 

[MAMBO_CEC]

Having in mind how many people who say they prefer dancing on2 dance off time or robotically with no sign that they are hearing anything more than a metronome, then, yes, vanity much be a strong factor

I can't say that I see a lot of these off time robots, but then I am only concerned with the follows I dance with, on my list of favs, these include follows from around the globe, none of them I would class as robotic or off time, actually some are very very musical,some have amazing styling, some amazing footwork, they always surprise me with something different and unexpected.....I am sorry If you meet these types of dancers (robotic and offtime), I promise if we ever dance not to be robotic or off time On2. Cheers!

 

[SalsaGipsy]

Lol we are opening Pandora's box... (Sorry, Toan, I tried to remind people that this is not a on1/on2 debate...)
What does that mean about the fact that most (*not all*) on1 dancers dance like pattern machines to metronomes and even will tell you in no vague terms that music is nothing but a beat machine? At least on2 dancers are (generally) thinking about the music even if many (maybe most) are not good enough to reflect it in their dancing at the level they would like to. Ask 100 on1 dancers to point out the congas (or any other percussion instrument) in a song and see how many can answer.

Notice that I never said anything about on1 dancers or superiority of any style. Just that if you are dancing off time or with no signs that you listen to the music then you cannot prefer on2 for musicality reasons. So, no need to go into that discussion.

 

[SalsaGipsy]

I can't say that I see a lot of these off time robots, but then I am only concerned with the follows I dance with, on my list of favs, these include follows from around the globe, none of them I would class as robotic or off time, actually some are very very musical,some have amazing styling, some amazing footwork, they always surprise me with something different and unexpected.....I am sorry If you meet these types of dancers (robotic and offtime), I promise if we ever dance not to be robotic or off time On2. Cheers!

When people talk about robotic dancing they usually talk about leaders rarely about followers.

 

[flowrite]

I'm on topic I'm talking about my failure and is it worth the effort? After all motivation was mentioned, that's important. What motivates, why bother? Seems pretty key to me.

 

[GForce85]

When people talk about robotic dancing they usually talk about leaders rarely about followers.

Followers can be robots in terms of just "going along with the program" and not adding anything to the dance, though. It's just that unfortunately, a lot of leaders happen to like that as long as they can just keep spamming moves .

 

[Sabrosura]

Followers can be robots in terms of just "going along with the program" and not adding anything to the dance, though. It's just that unfortunately, a lot of leaders happen to like that as long as they can just keep spamming moves .

Sounds like a perfect vicious circle...

 

[salsamarty]

I have been teaching On2 exclusively for 5 years now and have seen a lot about how people approach it. Generally speaking for fresh beginners it is extremely simple - there is nothing better than a blank canvas.

But for those that already have spent and invested time in learning On1, Cuban, Cali etc... learning On2 is a much more difficult challenge. I have written my thoughts on blog and got some very interesting thoughts when I posted this on Facebook. I was wondering what you all think? What advice would you give an On1 dancer who is trying to learn On2? What would you suggest them do? What to avoid?

http://toanhoang.com/salsa/180-salsa-failure-to-learn-on2

Back to the OP's question:

I would agree with all the points you made here though my personal experience is that you don't need to leave the on1 scene to learn on2. It is simply not practical for many people. They need to hear advice that they can use. I was lucky to have a willing partner from my class to practice with me in the clubs 1 or 2x each night we saw each other. I also took the time out to practice at home with my wife.

I see beginners learning on2 in San Francisco. I will have to start asking how well it works out for them in the on1 clubs.

One trick is to simply observe the dancers on the floor who are dancing on2 and then ask them for a dance.

 

[toan-hoang]

Funny you should say this because my advice would be the same as for learning anything else that's difficult: Don't give up.

Toan, I might have asked you this before, but if so I've forgotten your response. How well are your beginning on2 students integrating into the larger on1 community when they go out dancing, especially the leads?

I normally take my students to other clubs and if I know that they will end up dancing with loads of average On1 dancers I brief them or give them a quick 5 minutes demo. Most of the time this works a treat and they actually find it easy to do. Once they hit intermediate levels they generally go and only dance On2 though. My students generally have good attitudes and smiles so don't have problems getting dances.

 

[toan-hoang]

Toan, have you asked these students what they feel like when they go out to dance on2? Do they feel encouraged? Do they feel like they are having fun or do they feel judged? Sometimes dancers just need a good support network to get them through the tougher parts.

Most of our regular students love dancing On2 and have loads of fun. The average level of On2 dancers in London is much higher than On1 i.e. On2 dancers are generally more experienced, can compensate better, less judgemental and more playful, musical etc. These are things that we encourage also in our students.

We also had an initiative for 2014 where we invited some of the top dancers to our venues for free to encourage our new dancers (http://toanhoang.com/salsa/167-on2-generation-next-inspiration) and as such they have made friends with our students which means that they can get good dances at other clubs as well. It also allowed our students to get inspired by London's elite. The good thing about London is that the top dancers are actually extremely nice and this also rubs off on our students.

As teachers we have a strong split between the classes and socials. Classes we emphasis seriously and push hard, in the social we emphasis having fun while social dancing i.e. don't go out to practice, don't judge, just have fun. So our students don't feel the judgement or the other things that On2 dancers generally get.

 

[toan-hoang]

Back to the OP's question:

I would agree with all the points you made here though my personal experience is that you don't need to leave the on1 scene to learn on2. It is simply not practical for many people. They need to hear advice that they can use. I was lucky to have a willing partner from my class to practice with me in the clubs 1 or 2x each night we saw each other. I also took the time out to practice at home with my wife.

I see beginners learning on2 in San Francisco. I will have to start asking how well it works out for them in the on1 clubs.

One trick is to simply observe the dancers on the floor who are dancing on2 and then ask them for a dance.

I go out a lot and support my students a lot. I introduce them to friends who are On2 dancers and appreciate what I am trying to do. These beginners are the next generation of dancers in the next few years. I think that softens the blow when my students go to On1 clubs. I also show them how to dance On1 before they go.

 

[Rak Ataka Boom]

I'm curious what methods instructors use when they know a student is switching front On1 to On2.

The first On2 instructor I attended confused the heck out of me because they seemed to focus mainly on the timing/count. I left the class with the feeling of "That's it? It's just a different count? Why would you do that?".

The 2nd On2 instructor I attended, specifically ignored the count in the beginning. He said we'll talk about it in the second class but first I want you "to learn the essence of the dance, it's movement, direction and rhythm" (I remember that phrase, it stuck in my head). I remember the big smile on my face when I left that class and how I was excited to go back for more. My username is a small nod to that class.

 

[salsamarty]

I go out a lot and support my students a lot. I introduce them to friends who are On2 dancers and appreciate what I am trying to do. These beginners are the next generation of dancers in the next few years. I think that softens the blow when my students go to On1 clubs. I also show them how to dance On1 before they go.

Congratulations for going out to the social dancing and supporting your students. Unfortunately I don't see much of that here from instructors. That is, I don't see instructors out social dancing with regular people.

 

[salsamarty]

I'm curious what methods instructors use when they know a student is switching front On1 to On2.

The first On2 instructor I attended confused the heck out of me because they seemed to focus mainly on the timing/count. I left the class with the feeling of "That's it? It's just a different count? Why would you do that?".

The 2nd On2 instructor I attended, specifically ignored the count in the beginning. He said we'll talk about it in the second class but first I want you "to learn the essence of the dance, it's movement, direction and rhythm" (I remember that phrase, it stuck in my head). I remember the big smile on my face when I left that class and how I was excited to go back for more. My username is a small nod to that class.

Well . . . it's both. Some people are analytical and focusing on the count works for them. Some people are more intuitive and a movement and rhythm approach works for these people. It's always a matter of finding a teacher that speaks to your way of learning. Also, if you stick with it long enough you will get both concepts either way.