That's a very good question...
Do you think the empowered women movement will help or break latin dance or salsa culture?
- Thread starter artimalid
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That's a very good question...
Weird thread.
Latin america spreads over 2 continents and comprises a population almost as big as the European. Although there might be similarities, there's a huge cultural variety, including with respect to the music and perception of gender roles. While in Cuba coqueteo is an important part of dancing and well accepted in Europe, it is not in other parts of Latin America.
After 6 weeks in Peru, my first party back in Europe yesterday was part of a "Women Weekend" with "Female Empowerment" elements. While in Peru dance partners hardly look at each other and girls get quickly intimidated when you look at them, girls are way more open and playful in Europe with its softened gender roles, even in a rather feminist setting. While there may be some feminists calling for "safe zones" either to catch attention, sell their instagram accounts or feed their own identity, the "sexual predators" seem to exist more in the internet, e.g. in the mind of some forum members, than on the dance floor. And the girls at the parties I use to go do not seem victims to me, they know how to handle male attention quite well.
Latin america spreads over 2 continents and comprises a population almost as big as the European. Although there might be similarities, there's a huge cultural variety, including with respect to the music and perception of gender roles. While in Cuba coqueteo is an important part of dancing and well accepted in Europe, it is not in other parts of Latin America.
After 6 weeks in Peru, my first party back in Europe yesterday was part of a "Women Weekend" with "Female Empowerment" elements. While in Peru dance partners hardly look at each other and girls get quickly intimidated when you look at them, girls are way more open and playful in Europe with its softened gender roles, even in a rather feminist setting. While there may be some feminists calling for "safe zones" either to catch attention, sell their instagram accounts or feed their own identity, the "sexual predators" seem to exist more in the internet, e.g. in the mind of some forum members, than on the dance floor. And the girls at the parties I use to go do not seem victims to me, they know how to handle male attention quite well.
Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
Well that settles it then...
Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
The idea of sexual predators on the dance floor and within the studio instruction industry being all in people's minds because you believe it so.
bailar y tocar
Son Montuno
@artimalid has it exactly wrong but he does make a valid point. My wife (pura Caleña) does complain about "touchy" guys who would not dare do that if they had to assume her husband is Latino. I have to believe these guys do that because they assume they can get away with it if they are in an academy trained dancer's salsa social or in a setting where there is a mix of ethnicities. They know full well that they would get hurt (or worse) if they dared do that in a puro latino setting, which is why they attend these other events in the first place.
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bailar y tocar
Son Montuno
One thought about theses creeps: Could it be they don't even know about Bachata Sensual or Kizomba where the tolerance level for "touching" is much higher? What might be considered inappropriate in salsa could well be "ok" in those dances.
Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
Again, I disagree. I don't know why some of you have this notion that "machismo" is strictly confined to Latinx communities. If it was a
bunch of White guys at a Mambo dance party (Italians, Irish, Jews) the same attitudes prevail. Obviously everyone is individually different and you can't assume the same outcome each and every time. But to state that certain things are accepted, or tolerated, due to who a majority are culturally within an environment, is a slippery slope.
No one of any ethnic background would go to a dance at Howard Beach, Queens, NY where Russians, Albanians, Italians, etc dominate the area, and "paw" a local female dancer of the same or any other culture, and expect not to be toe tagged.
bas
Changui
Yes, the majority of us know what's going on here and yes, luckily it's mostly limited to the situation she talks about, where one person is in a position of power while the other is not. In a typical salsa night you're not stuck in another country while potentially thinking your dance future is related to the situation. And I wish this was the worst thing that ever happened but unfortunately it's not. Simple google search will confirm that.
So to get to your queston of 'will this make or break the scene', it won't. I wish this never happened but if you think this is just a salsa thing, you're delusional. Now don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to change it. But, it's not just a salsa thing. Hell, it even happens in chess! And again, not justifying it.
So should we take action on what she said? Yes, if you're in a position to do so definitely take action. The people she's talking about are on another continent so pretty much all I could do was share her story and I did. But if you're on the same continent (or even better, in the same city), spread this. Make other people aware of it.
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That's an interesting point of view. Care to elaborate? Cause in my experience it's the opposite. When somebody flirts with a latin girl/women who is in a relationship this is not acceptable behavior and their parnter will make that clear.
Then again, I don't know anything about your background and that's where the confusion may come from.
I had several female latin friends at work (I'm stereotypically european) and when we were having a conversation, even with their partners around, a lot of people in the office thought we were flirting. Yes, even when we were just having regular a conversation about what we did the weekend before. What can be considered flirting in one culture can be just having a conversation in another culture.
That said, this is obviously both generalized and contextual. Thinking that all Latin people respond the same is as ridiculous as thinking all Latin people eat the same food. We're talking about different countries with different norms and different cultural traditions and expectations.
bas
Changui
Unfortunately history tells us that things aren't this black and white. Several Salsa instructors (on different continents) have been convicted for rape and/or sexual harassment. Aside from that, several instructors that haven't been convicted have allegations against them (proof can be hard) and there are multiple cases of performance teams where harassment (either sexual harassment or harassment stemming from misogyny) has taken place.
Has this happened more often than in chess? We don't know as the exact numbers are not known. However, regardless of whether it's a higher or lower number, that doesn't make it right and we shouldn't accept it. And saying "it's only in people's minds" is just a lie. After all, if it was only in people's mind there would never have been any convictions.
Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
Hi,
Trust me, I'm definitely not with the thought process that these scenarios being described are being blown out of proportion. If anything they are not discussed enough. I think it's way too tolerated. Before Alex DaSilva wound up in a prison cell, and justifiably so, he represented a portion of the Male instruction/performance "elites" who'd gotten away with assaulting a Woman under the pretext of "instruction," or "rehearsal."
I can't give a specific number because I honestly don't know how many there are. But there were and, obviously, still are true blue predators within the dance community, who happen to instruct, perform and make their way to Congresses around the world. It was going on well before the Salsa Congresses emerged in the 1990s. As in the Alex DaSilva case, more people need to come forward and file a complaint with the proper authorities. Easier said than done and it won't guarantee an end to such predatory behavior. But at least individuals can be removed from the board.
PS-Are you Isabel Freiberg?
bas
Changui
Hahahaha. No, I'm not. I'm actually not even of the same gender she is
Change "all" by "more". I don't think that within the dance scene more sexual offenses are committed than in other parts of the society. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, I say I don't think it happens more than in other parts of the society (and - shocking for you - yes, I believe that women in Colombia are more likely to become victim of sexual or gender based violence than in Europe).
But the initial post didn't refer to violence but rather "flirtatious behavior". Which behaviour is socially accepted will of course depend on the country and culture. A behaviour considered completely normal in Cuba may be considered indecent in Peru.
Most people I know started dancing to get in touch with their sexually preferred gender. And some of them then got addicted to the music and the dance. But Son and Casino remain couple dances, the essence of Yambú and Guaguancó is flirting (if you tell me that it's different for LA Salsa, I will believe you). Son and Yambú more subtle, Guaguancó quite aggressive. Do I want flirtous behaviour out of this? Definitely not. Are there people who behave inappropriately? Yes, but not more than everywhere else. The people at our parties seen as problematic are more the ones from outside who do not know which behaviour is at those events.
Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
1derpalm
Son Montuno
I don't even know why you started this thread.
Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
What makes you believe that?
No, it didn't. It began with referencing an Instagram post discussing sexual violence and abuse, with the same poster adding their two cents that it flirtatious behavior with a partner/spouse/significant other among Latin American men is condoned. Which may be true.... on ANOTHER planet. But not on the Earth.
Not when it comes to the relationship between and a Woman. No gentleman in Cuba or Peru, or anyplace, is going to tolerate another man being flirtatious or being "touchy-feely" with their wife or girlfriend, while they are physically present and only a few feet away. Culture doesn't come into play.
It is symbolic. There's no actual physical contact, like in perreo or bachata sensual. The roots of Rumba don't justify one being a disrespectful jerkoff.
Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
Only... he didn't. Or were you trying to be an agent of chaos?
1derpalm
Son Montuno
Always Chaos
He asked someone why he was being quoted. I figured I'd just throw Moe gasolina
Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
DJ Yuca
Son Montuno
Your all time favourite track?