There needs to be a slight forward pitch ( about 2/ 3 degrees ) in social salsa due to the speed of steps used, with little or no body contact . In addition, the Intern. style latin, has a slight delay of weight change, due to the way that the CM is taught/danced, hence the more upright stance .
Do you care how you look on the dancefloor?
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There needs to be a slight forward pitch ( about 2/ 3 degrees ) in social salsa due to the speed of steps used, with little or no body contact . In addition, the Intern. style latin, has a slight delay of weight change, due to the way that the CM is taught/danced, hence the more upright stance .
TSC
Son
There's a big difference between not slouching and standing up straight. I used to slouch a bit and taking Cuban modern dance classes (which have a strong ballet base) helped a lot with that. But after spending a year in Cuba I now tend to dance inclined forward, not standing up straight. Meaning your whole body is somewhat inclined forward (but your shoulders are not hunched). This can be just a few degrees or this can actually be quite a large forward lean -- some very good Cuban dancers pull it off and make it look stylish.
Also, just telling someone to not slouch won't fix their posture. When I tried to stand up straight, I used to push out my chest and pull back my shoulders (I see a lot of other untrained dancers do this too). This creates an unnatural-looking stiff posture. It took modern dance classes and help from a ballet teacher to figure out how to align my hips and spine and find a natural-feeling elongated upright posture.
Also, just telling someone to not slouch won't fix their posture. When I tried to stand up straight, I used to push out my chest and pull back my shoulders (I see a lot of other untrained dancers do this too). This creates an unnatural-looking stiff posture. It took modern dance classes and help from a ballet teacher to figure out how to align my hips and spine and find a natural-feeling elongated upright posture.
That's what I was talking about
Slouching or not depends on the condition of the core and not much can be done by telling the people not to slouch / pulling the shoulders back or down etc like many teachers do. I'm not saying it's their job to fix that, because their job is teaching dance, but at least they should be aware about problems why people are slouching and at least be able to tell whom to ask for advice when their efforts don't work
Inclination of the body (or not) depends on the dance, so in casino it's obviously needed because of dominantly forward movement and changing of direction. So a fixed number like 2/3 degrees is a bit misleading - it depends on how much movement is used, so it can be more or less. In BR standard we have sways for similar purpose etc .. And in linear salsa there is not much inclination used today, due to the character of the dance (not much movement) which is a hybrid between cuban and non cuban dances. However, it usually happens that people want to look "in style", so we have forward inclination in various salsa styles but not much movement, or broken sways in BR standard and again not much movement or various weird types of kizomba styling again without proper way of movement etc ... and many other similar examples in ordinary life ..
Slouching or not depends on the condition of the core and not much can be done by telling the people not to slouch / pulling the shoulders back or down etc like many teachers do. I'm not saying it's their job to fix that, because their job is teaching dance, but at least they should be aware about problems why people are slouching and at least be able to tell whom to ask for advice when their efforts don't work
Inclination of the body (or not) depends on the dance, so in casino it's obviously needed because of dominantly forward movement and changing of direction. So a fixed number like 2/3 degrees is a bit misleading - it depends on how much movement is used, so it can be more or less. In BR standard we have sways for similar purpose etc .. And in linear salsa there is not much inclination used today, due to the character of the dance (not much movement) which is a hybrid between cuban and non cuban dances. However, it usually happens that people want to look "in style", so we have forward inclination in various salsa styles but not much movement, or broken sways in BR standard and again not much movement or various weird types of kizomba styling again without proper way of movement etc ... and many other similar examples in ordinary life ..
Sabrosura
Son Montuno
I find the forward pitch feels good in closed position dancing; but when in open position/following turn patterns, which is the majority of modern studio-taught salsa dancing, I have found that a relatively straight (but relaxed, not stiff) posture, with shoulders rolled back and down and with the core, especially back core muscles driving much of the movement (i.e. back core muscles and glutes are engaged--but not tense) is the kind of posture that best allows my body to maintain good balance, smooth stepping, and to most effectively follow complex turn patterns--especially those with many sudden changes of direction, when having any kind of pitch I have found can be detrimental.
Given than I am engaging the back core muscles so much it would be physically very hard, I think, to have a forward pitch while still maintaining that level of engagement, because by definition the back core muscles work to keep the body in a straight, upright posture. I have experimented with "disengaging" the back core and not having the shoulders rolled back and down (which by itself engages and activates the back core muscles) and could feel a noticeable difference in how well I was following complex turn patterns and how my movement felt (i.e. not as good). Nevertheless, I am always experimenting with movement so I'll play around more with the forward pitch.
Naturally when I am dancing in closed position or dancing bachata, the forward-pitch embrace feels very nice.
Given than I am engaging the back core muscles so much it would be physically very hard, I think, to have a forward pitch while still maintaining that level of engagement, because by definition the back core muscles work to keep the body in a straight, upright posture. I have experimented with "disengaging" the back core and not having the shoulders rolled back and down (which by itself engages and activates the back core muscles) and could feel a noticeable difference in how well I was following complex turn patterns and how my movement felt (i.e. not as good). Nevertheless, I am always experimenting with movement so I'll play around more with the forward pitch.
Naturally when I am dancing in closed position or dancing bachata, the forward-pitch embrace feels very nice.
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Well, I don't quite agree here. Some linear salsa dancers have a kind of "broken forward pitch", so that upper body is inclined forward from the waist, with a kind of central poise, but those who are good dancers are not slouched. First one coming to my mind is previous Ella's partner (Hrvoje), but there are others dancing that way, even Adolfo for instance
One doesn't need to be be upright to be in balance and to move smoothky. However, spins are easier if upright, due to physical laws again, which doesn't mean that all people do it that way
One doesn't need to be be upright to be in balance and to move smoothky. However, spins are easier if upright, due to physical laws again, which doesn't mean that all people do it that way
Sabrosura
Son Montuno
I was speaking from my experience as a follow, I can imagine it's different for leads -- your examples are all leads, can you think of any follows? None of the great (salsa) follows I can think of have any kind of broken forward pitch. Alien's posture for instance is perfectly upright. As you noted, forward pitch makes spinning much harder and 99% of salsa dances involve spins/multiple turns.
(And I'm not sure "broken forward pitch" is what terence had in mind when he mentioned this.)
In any case the son/casino embrace is what comes to my mind, and it's usually more pronounced in the men. It's not as noticeable in women.
You can see it in Dominican dancing bachata as well, many of the men have the forward pitch (the women not so much, if they do have it it's more subtle). The last couple, at 5:05, is a good example--the man has the forward pitch, while the woman is upright.
Then again, even in a son lead the forward pitch can be almost non-existent, even in close embrace.
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Yes, it was for leads ... followers are frequently asked for spin so upright is preferred I suppose ... there was one recent example, Maisha Morris, and there was a comment people don't like dancing wit her (or something similar) ... but she has very nice posture, it seems to be just her decision to dance like that .. however non-upright is frequently used in zouk, and in salsa, there are also off-axis spins made by some followers from time to time ...
Terence had in mind forward poise (and pitch) I suppose and not those "broken versions" (I just made up the name, similar to broken sway in BR, I hope there is a better name for this)
Terence had in mind forward poise (and pitch) I suppose and not those "broken versions" (I just made up the name, similar to broken sway in BR, I hope there is a better name for this)
Dissonant Harmony
Son Montuno
On Friady, Yoannis Tamayo went to a social here.
He seemed to have some inclination forward, but it was much less pronounced then the guy in this video:
His dancing was mainly in place. He played with his foot to match the music, but his lead, while being very 'invisible', appeared to be clear to the lady.
When he opened to the side on the 3 (or the 7), it seemed as if the weight was shifted to that one completely on the 3 (Or very quickly afterward), but, despite showing no change on his body, I could still, "mysteriously" feel that his body was getting "heavier" on the 4.
I can't explain why.
In general, he looked very heavy! Or solid? It's as if was observing a living statue. This was very impressive; he looked 10 times heavier then what he really was! At the same time, he could be very swift and 'light', occasionally playing with his foot, or doing some Pachanga. (While still looking 'solid' and 'heavy').
this left a very big impression on me.
(And also changed the way I danced that day).
He seemed to have some inclination forward, but it was much less pronounced then the guy in this video:
His dancing was mainly in place. He played with his foot to match the music, but his lead, while being very 'invisible', appeared to be clear to the lady.
When he opened to the side on the 3 (or the 7), it seemed as if the weight was shifted to that one completely on the 3 (Or very quickly afterward), but, despite showing no change on his body, I could still, "mysteriously" feel that his body was getting "heavier" on the 4.
I can't explain why.
In general, he looked very heavy! Or solid? It's as if was observing a living statue. This was very impressive; he looked 10 times heavier then what he really was! At the same time, he could be very swift and 'light', occasionally playing with his foot, or doing some Pachanga. (While still looking 'solid' and 'heavy').
this left a very big impression on me.
(And also changed the way I danced that day).
Sabrosura
Son Montuno
Yeah in kizomba and Argentine tango, and some traditional bachata styles the close embrace allows the lady to use a forward pitch as well and it feels very nice
But in salsa and WCS, that doesn't work as well for the follow. (And as for Maisha, preferences are of course subjective, but personally I found her style/posture aesthetically unappealing, especially during turns. To me this forward pitch just doesn't look as good on women as it does in men; except of course in a close embrace position.)
Jag75
Son Montuno
I'm not sure I understand - every single instructor I've taken lessons from, including Uriel Garcia and Oliver Pineda, has emphasised the importance of forward pitch. The back and body are still upright, but the weight is over the balls - unless you mean something different.
If the shoulders are lined up (relaxed), and the spine is straight, and the neck is long, that is all that is required for good posture. Forward pitch in terms of weight needs to be over the balls and not evenly distributed throughout the feet.
Unless I misunderstood your post...
Jag75
Son Montuno
The body should be slightly leaned forward...
This is the instruction I've received from top instructors everywhere - I've never had an instructor teach me otherwise.
When you see someone like Jazzy spin, he actually teaches forward pitch - and in the process raises his heels without changing his head level - if he doesn't start with at least some forward pitch beforehand he falls back as he raises his heels.
I take forward pitch to mean the center of gravity is over the balls of the feet - if you are perfectly upright this simply doesn't happen. Some dancers actually dance with their heels raised throughout (not my preference but it is common among very good dancers) and only dance in high heels - this forces the weight to be forward hence forward pitch.
If you are too far forward that the weight is too far over then yes you lose balance - there's a sweet spot that needs to be maintained throughout the dance regardless of the moves executed, including spins and chaine turns.
Jag75
Son Montuno
I strongly disagree with Edie using her heels when she does travelling turns but ok that is one example of not having forward pitch throughout, but I personally consider it bad technique.
In the end the preferences are an individual thing, and I am open-minded, but it will take a lot of convincing me that forward pitch isn't the way to go.
In the end the preferences are an individual thing, and I am open-minded, but it will take a lot of convincing me that forward pitch isn't the way to go.
Sabrosura
Son Montuno
I don't equate having your weight on your balls with leaning forward, and actually the videos of Jazzy below are a perfect example. I find visual examples are much more helpful to discuss than verbal ones in this context, they can help prevent 10 posts where we're writing novels but no one knows what anyone really means.
Do you mean this Jazzy? If so, then he looks very different than the guys in the videos I posted, much more upright -- great posture, not leaning forward, but yes with weight on the balls, as he demonstrates in the second video. To be clear--Ican you look at the son videos I posted earlier? Because that is what I was specifically referring to. (Btw personally I've never actually heard a salsa instructor teach anything about pitch, I've only heard it in ballroom classes.)
Also, ballet dancers spin on the balls and they are still perfectly upright--do you consider this to be forward pitch?
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Jag75
Son Montuno
I don't equate having your weight on your balls with leaning forward, and actually the videos of Jazzy below are a perfect example. I find visual examples are much more helpful to discuss than verbal ones in this context, they can help prevent 10 posts where we're writing novels but no one knows what anyone really means.
Do you mean this Jazzy? If so, then he looks very different than the guys in the videos I posted, much more upright -- great posture, not leaning forward, but yes with weight on the balls, as he demonstrates in the second video. To be clear--Ican you look at the son videos I posted earlier? Because that is what I was specifically referring to. (Btw personally I've never actually heard a salsa instructor teach anything about pitch, I've only heard it in ballroom classes.)
Also, ballet dancers spin on the balls and they are still perfectly upright--do you consider this to be forward pitch?
Ah I see - yes I think we're thinking about different meanings for the word pitch - yes still upright, I mean pitch as in shifting the weight over the balls - very subtle but not actually leaning forward from the upper body
It seems we're in agreement and I misunderstood your post.
Yeah in kizomba and Argentine tango, and some traditional bachata styles the close embrace allows the lady to use a forward pitch as well and it feels very nice
Yes, upright is visually better for girls in most cases, it looks more elegant etc, I agree with that. However, not all people want to look "elegant". It seems that she wants to give her dancing more afro cuban flavor and I'm fine with that. She is not just another salsa follower. Or she just wants to enjoy and doesn't care how she looks on the dancefloor when dancing socially
Tango/kIzomba iz off course different because couple is in compact hold, so they can lean into each other and also away from each other (in some tango moves) and still be in balance as a couple
WCS is again different than salsa, more rubberband used, so followers during some moves move weight back to amplify it (some more, some less, depending on preference). It's not usually in use in linear salsa (or much less at least). So I don't agree with the part "in salsa and wcs" as those dances are still quite different, just like kizomba vs tango
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Son
In Cuba, the forward lean is definitely more common among men, but to some extent many women do it as well. One of my teachers, a female professor at the Instituto Superior de Arte, dances casino with a very pronounced forward lean. She said it's an Afro-Cuban influence (Afro-Cuban dance being her specialty). But she would never do anything like a multiple spin (or even a single spin) in casino -- it's all very traditional step-step-step.
Personally, I don't find a strong forward lean in a follow particularly aesthetically pleasing, at least most of the time, but I've seen it used.
Personally, I don't find a strong forward lean in a follow particularly aesthetically pleasing, at least most of the time, but I've seen it used.
That, was one of the best Son Exhib. I have seen..and of course. it helps , when one has a lady who knows HOW to dance..
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