Do you care how you look on the dancefloor?

[Nuyorican]

Recently I saw a video of myself dancing at a social. This is the first time I have actually watched myself dance and I hated what I saw. Can’t figure out why though. So I tried practicing in front of the mirror to see if I could change how I look when I dance and it just took away all the fun for me.

I pretty much only listen to Salsa and I love the way it makes me feel when I am dancing to it. It just brings me joy to move to these rhythms. I can spend hours dancing alone in my living room either practicing along with class videos or just getting down to the music (which I prefer).

I found that paying attention to how I looked took away from me paying attention to how the music made me feel (if that makes sense).

Has anyone else felt this way about their dancing?

Is there a way I can do both?

 

[Groove On]

Fix one thing at a time and dance with that change for a long while until it becomes natural. If you try to change too many things at once, you'll just make it harder to hear the music. It's all so connected that it takes time to really see how one change affects the whole system - some things get better, others get worse.

There used to be an old rule of thumb - for every 1 hour of instruction you should do 5 hours of practice / social dancing. It was very effective, but I never seem to hear it anymore.

I remember when my first coach started taking videos of me, I couldn't watch more than 10 seconds without looking away. Watching a 3 minute video was torture. But it was good process and now I don't think much about how I look anymore - because I have a better sense of it from the videos.

The one thing I will say, mirrors are not your friend - don't believe them, they are just good for spot-checking. But videos will show you better what's going on with your dancing.

 

[elanimal]

Unfortunately, I do care how I look while I'm dancing, because even though I want to connect to the music, I'm not going to sit here and lie and say I don't want to connect with my partner, too. And the way I look definitely influences the quality my dances, and the subsequent high I, and my partner, get. It's not limited to how I move and dance, but also how I dress.

Going one by one as @Groove On said is a good way to feel encouraged. You should have a list of things to fix, and prioritize it according to 2 variables: first, how important it is to your dancing, and second, how easy it is to fix. My list is long as hell, jeje. But, if you focus on more than one thing at a time, it will be a lot harder to focus on the music while social dancing. It's a lot easier to periodically think 'Posture!' while you're listening to the music, than to think 'Posture! Foot/weight placement! Small steps! Tight arm movements! Spotting! Smile!'

Don't worry about it man. It takes a while but it gets a lot better. It's a big paradigm shift. Now I almost feel I didn't practice if I don't have a video of the end result of a session.

 

[Sabrosura]

Unfortunately, I do care how I look while I'm dancing, because even though I want to connect to the music, I'm not going to sit here and lie and say I don't want to connect with my partner, too. And the way I look definitely influences the quality my dances, and the subsequent high I, and my partner, get. It's not limited to how I move and dance, but also how I dress.

You lost me. It's how you feel that affects the connection with your partner. How you look certainly reflects the quality of your movement (and timing and other things of course), but form your follow's perspective how you look is just a proxy for the real thing -- how you feel. Every follow knows guys who look amazing on the dance floor but feel like crap to dance with. And they're not exceptions either, they're more plentiful than you'd think.

Here are two videos of me dancing with two New York guys who are two of my favorite leads in the world and have been so for several years. These guys feel so amazing to dance with that I would choose a dance with them over a dance with any of the famous pros any day. Do they look good? Sure, they do, but if you put them on an international dance floor with other good dancers they would probably be lost in the crowd. But the way they feel? The way their movement and lead are so amazingly in sync with the music? The smoothness of their lead and the tension build-up and release in their movement? The way they playfully express the music? It's a heavenly feeling to dance with them!

So do use how you look as a way to see what you need to work on in the way you move (especially your basic step), but remember it's a proxy for just one thing--the quality of your movement. It's the combination of your lead quality, movement quality, and--above all--connection with the music (both in your movement and your leading) that will make or break the connection with your partner.

So, guys, the musical connection you mention you want is not an "even though", a side thing with regard to your partner connection--it's a necessity if you want to feel good to your partners. From my perspective, it is impossible for a lead to feel good to dance with if his connection with the music is off.

Here's a specific musical leading tip for you guys that for me takes the dancing to a whole new level and that is fairly easy to learn to do: look at how the guy in the second video is giving me a double spin at 1:34--notice how he is not just leading the double randomly (like 90%+ of guys usually do), but is leading each turn to the music? That's what I'm talking about when I talk about the leading being in sync with the music -- and it feels amazing to dance with a guy who does that

I found that paying attention to how I looked took away from me paying attention to how the music made me feel (if that makes sense).

Has anyone else felt this way about their dancing?

Is there a way I can do both?

We all feel like that when we see our videos. Especially those of dances we really enjoyed. A dance or partner may feel amazing to you (like the guys above are to me) and yet the videos may look just ok or even mediocre and totally not capture the feelings you and your partner had during the dance. So don't worry about it, use the videos as a way to improve your basic and any other issues you observe, but don't think how you look in a video is the be-all-end-all, keep enjoying how you feel when you dance. It's all that matters.

And yes there is a way to do both, in fact the feelings and the quality of your dancing usually go hand in hand: as you improve your dancing and your partner connection (lead), how you feel will also improve. Thinking back to my first couple of years dancing, I thought I was having fun but it was nothing compared to the feelings I get now, because I am much more relaxed and better able to express the music and connect to my partners (and not have to worry about things like keeping my balance in a double spin )

 

[elanimal]

@Sabrosura How a lead feels is the bigger part of connection, which is why I said how you look influences connection. Do you disagree with that?

 

[Sabrosura]

@Sabrosura How a lead feels is the bigger part of connection, which is why I said how you look influences connection. Do you disagree with that?

Yes, I do, because it's not the real cause, it just serves as a proxy (sometimes good, other times not so good) for other things that do influence connection.

And it does not preclude feeling like crap to a follow.

To be clear: looking better than a certain average level will be the inevitable result of improving your overall dancing (and leading). So that's why I refer to it as a proxy. But just because someone looks good doesn't mean they feel good to dance with.

 

[elanimal]

Yes, I do, because it's not the real cause, it just serves as a proxy (sometimes good, other times not so good) for other things that do influence connection.

And it does not preclude feeling like crap to a follow.

Jeje, we'll agree to disagree, then.

 

[Sabrosura]

Jeje, we'll agree to disagree, then.

Have you really never had the experience of dancing with a girl that looked very good but then she felt totally different (heavier etc.) than what you expected? If you haven't then you need to get out more

That is magnified many times when it comes to leads.

 

[Sabrosura]

@Sabrosura How a lead feels is the bigger part of connection, which is why I said how you look influences connection.

You are missing a link. That's what I am getting at.

How someone looks=visual perception
How someone's connection (lead/follow) feels=tactile perception

So where's your link?

I can follow someone with my eyes closed (in fact I do that in bachata or kizomba sometimes ) and their lead and connection will still feel good (or bad). In fact dancing with your eyes closed makes you even more aware of how someone feels, their connection and lead -- they actually recommend it for tango follows when dancing in the close embrace position.

 

[elanimal]

Have you really never had the experience of dancing with a girl that looked amazing and then she felt totally different (heavier etc) than what you expected? Then you need to get out more

That is magnified many times when it comes to leads.

That's the point you're missing... yes, there are girls who look great but are heavy, and no one is denying that happens a lot with guys, even pros. BUT. There are girls who feel great, but don't necessarily look great. If they looked better, it would improve the dance, and the connection further.

And by connection I mean more than tactile perception, as you're referencing. I mean connection on the psychological level, as well. The intensity of the high, the exultation you see in the smile and hug at the end. I ask you the question... Can you connect when you break free and you each do footwork/shines/whatever you wanna call it? Ain't no tactile perception going on there...

If how I dress influences those reactions and connections, I'm pretty sure how I look and move does influence the connection, jeje.

 

[Sabrosura]

That's the point you're missing... yes, there are girls who look great but are heavy, and no one is denying that happens a lot with guys, even pros. BUT. There are girls who feel great, but don't necessarily look great. If they looked better, it would improve the dance, and the connection further.

And by connection I mean more than tactile perception, as you're referencing. I mean connection on the psychological level, as well. The intensity of the high, the exultation you see in the smile and hug at the end. I ask you the question... Can you connect when you break free and you each do footwork/shines/whatever you wanna call it? Ain't no tactile perception going on there...

If how I dress influences those reactions and connections, I'm pretty sure how I look and move does influence the connection, jeje.

Ah ok I think I got you, you're talking about how your partner looks to you during the dance. If so, then yes we disagree. I mean I love watching a good-looking, well-dressed man dance But that's when I'm taking a break. When I'm dancing with him? It's all about how he feels to me and our partnerwork connection. How he looks to me is less than 5% of what makes me enjoy a dance (or not). He can be the worst looking, worst dressed person in the room, if he feels amazing then that will be the best dance of the night for me.

I suppose I'm different than most of the women you dance with if you feel that how you look influences your connection with them. Or maybe your perspective will change as you become more experienced, who knows, and you won't see how your partner looks as such an important part of dance connection.

And as for smiling and general dance chemistry, to me that usually follows, rather than precedes, the lead/follow connection. I can start dancing with a guy who I feel no initial chemistry with but if the lead/follow connection is good, then inevitably the psychological connection and chemistry accompanies it. I can't think of any lead with whom I have a great lead/follow connection but a crap general dance chemistry/psychological connection. If it happens, it's certainly an exception. (Note that I differentiate between dance chemistry and real-life chemistry--I can have amazing dance chemistry with someone but not so good real life chemistry, and vice versa.) On the other hand, I can start dancing with a guy with whom I feel some initial chemistry, but if his leading/partnerwork connection is crap, he can smile at me all he wants, to me he will go into the "leads who are nice guys to talk to but who I don't enjoy dancing with" category.

 

[elanimal]

^^ jajaja, I'm not merely talking if a girl puts on makeup and puts a little more effort into her physical appearance... I mean how she looks while doing her actual basic,... the quality of her movement. I have danced with girls who are very very light and a real pleasure to dance with, but their basic step and body movement is somewhat boring or what some people would call 'flawed.' Many girls come to mind in Boston, I'll introduce you sometime, jajaja! So, to be clear, I'm not saying I enjoy a dance more when a girl is made-up, wearing fake eyelashes and a skimpy dress. I mean the connection is improved when she moves well, with or without partnerwork.

 

[Sabrosura]

But you were talking about how you're dressed influences people's connection with you.

In any case I still disagree, perhaps this is different for follows vs. leads, since men tend to be more visual it would make sense that a man enjoys dancing more with a woman who has nice movement but feels heavier and doesn't follow as well versus a woman who feels light and follows well but doesn't have such good body movement (I take it this is what you're trying to say, that you'd pick the first woman if you had to choose, if we're not including the perfect follow in the choices ). The guys in my videos above move well, but they wouldn't stand out on a congress dance floor, yet I'd pick them every time over a guy who can move better but whose lead is not as good as theirs.

 

[elanimal]

But you were talking about how you're dressed influences people's connection with you.

That's only one aspect of it, but yes, girls do react to that pretty subtly. However, when I am fresh from practicing some body movement the day before or a few hours before social dancing, I get better reactions and better connection. So, the general gist is that, yes, quality of movement, which influences purely how you look, plays a role. To some, so does your actual physical appearance. I was just using physical appearance, i.e., how I dress, as an exaggerated example to drive home the point that yes, indeed, how you appear, whether cosmetically or in the quality of your movement, does play a role in how much a person enjoys dancing with you, and your connection. Otherwise, why focus on individual body movement at all...?

 

[Sabrosura]

Otherwise, why focus on individual body movement at all...?

Exactly. Most people would be much better dancers if they worried more about their technique and how their lead/follow connection feels to their partner, and not how they look. (I'm obviously excluding performers here, who are putting on a show and it needs to look as good as possible.) If there's anything I've learned (including in Frankie's classes) it is that body movement, how you look, is just a proxy for how good your technique is, it shouldn't be an end goal in and of itself. Too many people think they should focus on how they look rather than on their technique (because looks are the easiest thing to observe on the dance floor) and how they feel to their partner and the result is "styling ladies" and pattern monkey guys.

Let's talk again in a year or two about this and see if you still feel the same.

 

[mlemonl]

I found that paying attention to how I looked took away from me paying attention to how the music made me feel (if that makes sense).

Has anyone else felt this way about their dancing?

Is there a way I can do both?

I guess there's always comfort in the fact that you probably like how you look now better than how you looked 6 months ago. And you'll probably like how you will look 6months from now more than how your dancing is currently. One of my instructors had said something to me that I think about all the time is, "You should be constantly working on your basic." Depending on the song/partner/dance style I will be concentrating on my basic a lot more. But for other song + partner combos, that I'm excited about, I rather just relax and go with the music + dance.

 

[MAMBO_CEC]

Recently I saw a video of myself dancing at a social. This is the first time I have actually watched myself dance and I hated what I saw. Can’t figure out why though. So I tried practicing in front of the mirror to see if I could change how I look when I dance and it just took away all the fun for me.

I pretty much only listen to Salsa and I love the way it makes me feel when I am dancing to it. It just brings me joy to move to these rhythms. I can spend hours dancing alone in my living room either practicing along with class videos or just getting down to the music (which I prefer).

I found that paying attention to how I looked took away from me paying attention to how the music made me feel (if that makes sense).

Has anyone else felt this way about their dancing?

Is there a way I can do both?

Yes, like you after many years of dancing, I saw myself dancing on a video clip at a Congress and subsequently I've seen myself in other clips and socials, and for the most part I don't like what I see and It turns out that my missus is the same, in some ways she is even more self-critical than me, so I guess it's just human nature to want to look better, as we are constantly judging ourselves against the better dancers/celebrities out there, even though your peers might think you look good. I pretty much don't like being filmed, but in this day and age (YouTube gen), you never know when that pesky camera will get you. I will say however that as much as I hated to watch, I found certain fixable things which I have tried to work on, but as with being filmed, sometimes you're not aware the camera is on and you're tired or you're not having the best of dances. For me it all comes down to how other people perceive you. Do follows want to dance with you? Do people compliment you on your dancing (total strangers)? I like that salsa brings you joy and believe me that will be reflected in your dancing. Don't be hard on yourself, Groove On gave some sound advice, fix one thing at a time, this is a dance journey and not a sprint. I totally relate.

 

[vit]

Here's a specific musical leading tip for you guys that for me takes the dancing to a whole new level and that is fairly easy to learn to do: look at how the guy in the second video is giving me a double spin at 1:34--notice how he is not just leading the double randomly (like 90%+ of guys usually do), but is leading each turn to the music? That's what I'm talking about when I talk about the leading being in sync with the music -- and it feels amazing to dance with a guy who does that

This one is tricky

I remember when we started discussing on2 timing 2-3 years ago, your comments how it is different in Europe than in NY etc ... And I also observed differences between "local on2" (including some other places filmed on youtube) and dancing in the clips from NY (and some other places as well) and my conclusion was that there are some "flaws" in local on2 dancing, compared to NY. But then ... I started noticing also some differences in other dances, first kizomba, then bachata and finally even salsa on1 and social ballroom ... Then I also started noticing some regional differences here and ... my final conclusion is - we don't all hear the music and react to it the same way on some very basic level

Leading of that turn at 1:34 looks like how I think I would lead it (although video recording of my dancing could reveal that it's not the case), but leading that way doesn't work well on most local followers. They just whether don't hear the music the same way or were taught to turn on different beats by local teachers or are used to turn that way when dancing with other guys or combination of all of those ... and because of those slight timing differences, that are usually within 1/2 of the beat ... dancing with some people feels great and with other doesn't ... it's not just that relatively small timing difference, but whole body movement connected with weight transfer and how it works on the body (much more complex than I thought at first and, I would say, totally unknown subject for 99% of dance teachers) and resulting forces in connection, felt through arms, which can feel in sync or out of sync ... So that's why you feel leading of some guys nice and some "random" (even if they are good dancers) - it's a matter of compatibility - so sometimes we go well with some beginners and not that good with experienced partners ... so with "less compatible" followers, it's better actually not to lead it, but let her turn in her timing ... I mean, it's better than forcing the timing, but ... never feels great ...

 

[SnowDancer]

Have you really never had the experience of dancing with a girl that looked very good but then she felt totally different (heavier etc.) than what you expected? If you haven't then you need to get out more

That is magnified many times when it comes to leads.

Oh yes! Can be specially true for performers. And sometimes I've had that 'heavy' feeling (like I'm going through resistance training) with a very small woman, while a large one feels lighter than air.

 

[SnowDancer]

Yes, like you after many years of dancing, I saw myself dancing on a video clip at a Congress and subsequently I've seen myself in other clips and socials, and for the most part I don't like what I see and It turns out that my missus is the same, in some ways she is even more self-critical than me,

Perhaps it's like listening to a recording of your own voice. It's well-known that most people don't like hearing themselves that way.

I think you're right that it involves comparing ourselves to other people. Or maybe we're comparing to an idealized image we have of ourselves.

On a more practical note:
The first few times I saw myself dancing, I had to get past that "I look horrible" thought and see some fixable flaws. The most obvious was that I was constantly tensing up my shoulders and also hunching over. I then took a private with a female instructor who simply danced with my for the hour, and pointed out each time I began to tense up or lose posture. She also suggested dancing really simple moves while concentrating on good posture and staying relaxed. It really helped.