Do you care how you look on the dancefloor?

vit said:
so with "less compatible" followers, it's better actually not to lead it, but let her turn in her timing ... I mean, it's better than forcing the timing, but ... never feels great ...
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And the heavenly feeling is when the lead's intended (but not forced) turn lead timing is in sync with the follow's, that's musical connection heaven for me :) In my experience this shared rhythm and musical expression with a lead happens relatively rarely, but man when it does, it's dancegasmic :) (And those guys, who tend to be very musical in general, go straight to my favorite leads category :) )

(I agree than leads should never force the follow to turn. Many times it's the guys with the worst timing who are guilty of this forced turning, usually very out of sync with the music, and in such cases I actually ask them to stop forcing me through the turns because it's one of the most uncomfortable things for me as a follow.)

Here's a fellow Frankie student (and ex-SFer) demonstrating the same rhythmic lead for the double spin at 0:54 :) Again it's not just him leading it or just me doing my own thing, it's a combination of his lead and my own feel for the music. (i.e. how dancing in general should be :) )

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=901299289952865
 
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SnowDancer said:
Oh yes! Can be specially true for performers.:meh: And sometimes I've had that 'heavy' feeling (like I'm going through resistance training) with a very small woman, while a large one feels lighter than air.:)
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My current understanding of "heaviness" of the followers is this: it mostly depends on overall stability of the core and consequent ability to do smooth transfer of the weight from one leg to another while staying in balance and relaxed. People lacking this just have a kind of fear of stepping to avoid falling, so they spend larger amount of time split weighted (with significant weight on both feet) and resist when you lead them through moves + they have more problems to synchronize their movement with music
 
Apparently i don't care, but DJ still decided to film me.. :D

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10210119208477565

But to your original worries; yes, it's hard to focus on good looks, on music, on partner, on other dancers, on cameramen, on waiters, on your inner monster all at the same time. So you can train some of that to work on auto-pilot. Also what Sabs said, but maybe I understand her the way I want to understand. When you feel good and in the moment, your motions will match the music and it will look better. And your partner can ride the same wave. I much better watch clumsy dancers who express emotions than technical dancers in good looking cloths.
 
vit said:
My current understanding of "heaviness" of the followers is this: it mostly depends on overall stability of the core and consequent ability to do smooth transfer of the weight from one leg to another while staying in balance and relaxed. People lacking this just have a kind of fear of stepping to avoid falling, so they spend larger amount of time split weighted (with significant weight on both feet) and resist when you lead them through moves + they have more problems to synchronize their movement with music
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That's a good technical explanation, but I wonder if that's for followers who just feel a little heavy. I'm thinking of ones who almost need to be shoved around; and I've noticed that they're the ones who dance mostly with one partner, and he is one of the guys who shoves women around. So they assume that's the way salsa is danced, and never learn to move themselves. There's one I know who doesn't even do a basic step if I stop turning her.
 
It should be an integral part of your dance training to record yourself - it's impossible to correct the aesthetics of your dance without watching video footage of your dancing as you progress. The mirror is ok but won't match video footage as a learning tool.
 
*When I dance - no. It's all about getting lost in the music, but instead of "being one with it", I'd rather make it two. ;)
-And the more my anaytical and judgmental mind is..."shut down" - the much better.

*When I practice, or watch myself in a video - hell yeah, and I go really hard on myself, and work on fixing it.

---

Recently (I moved), I stopped being able of dancing in front of mirror, but then, when one time I could - I was super surprised. But this time, in a good way. :)
Now I want to see myself in partnerwork.

-I did see a few seconds of myself appearing in a recent video. (Not in partnerwork). What I saw there reflected (bad) things that do not happen when I dance in front of a mirror, and therefore I believe it happens when I don't pay attention. I'll try pouring some effort into fixing it pretty soon, though, :)
 
Jag75 said:
I've had better lead-follow connection with beginners than I've had with many much more advanced dancers who looked great on the dance floor. I can totally relate to what Sabs is saying.
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I can vouch for this from the "other side". I have had terrible connection with disappointed followers, who've probably expected something much more impressive from me, after watching me dancing.
 
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Jag75 said:
I've had better lead-follow connection with beginners than I've had with many much more advanced dancers who looked great on the dance floor. I can totally relate to what Sabs is saying.
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I agree with you 100%. The disagreement came from the belief that 'looking good' has the ability to enhance a connection. I'm not saying how someone looks is more important than how they feel. merely that between two followers who feel exactly the same, in a world where that's possible, the tiebreaker goes to the one who actually moves the best, or simply has a more interesting and natural looking basic.
 
Umm but that's obvious, you're just copping out now :P

Tell me this: between the two hypothetical follows I described earlier:

1. Feels great to dance with (light, responsive to lead, stays in the slot etc) but average/mediocre body movement
2. Great body movement but average/mediocre in feel (heavy, doesn't respond too well to lead, etc)

Which do you prefer?
 
Sabrosura said:
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=901299289952865
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Unreleated to the musicality issue: When I lead like that, most girls blame me for not leading. :S
One day, I will fly to NY, and I will find you, and I will dance with you! :O

1. Feels great to dance with (light, responsive to lead, stays in the slot etc) but average/mediocre body movement
2. Great body movement but average/mediocre in feel (heavy, doesn't respond too well to lead, etc)

Which do you prefer?
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In my case - second one. No doubt.
Not to mention we would be capable of dancing much more musically that way, and also be less restricted in the things I can lead, so the result would be much more beautiful anyway. :)

-On the dance floor I care about how I (and the foloower) feel, much more than I care how we look.
(Unless, for some reason, I go "performance mode", but that happens only once in a while).
 
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Dissonant Harmony said:
Unreleated to the musicality issue: When I lead like that, most girls blame me for not leading. :S
One day, I will fly to NY, and I will find you, and I will dance with you! :O


In my case - second one. No doubt.
Not to mention we would be capable of dancing much more musically that way, and also be less restricted in the things I can lead, so the result would be much more beautiful anyway. :)

-On the dance floor I care about how I (and the foloower) feel, much more than I care how we look.
(Unless, for some reason, I go "performance mode", but that happens only once in a while).
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I hope to meet and dance with you some day too! Especially after your last post in the member videos thread which I'm still smiling over :)

P.S. I think you meant to say you'd choose follow #1? ;)
 
Sabrosura said:
Umm but that's obvious, you're just copping out now :p

Tell me this: between the two hypothetical follows I described earlier:

1. Feels great to dance with (light, responsive to lead, stays in the slot etc) but average/mediocre body movement
2. Great body movement but average/mediocre in feel (heavy, doesn't respond too well to lead, etc)

Which do you prefer?
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#1. Hands down. I love me some light follows. When I get stuck with a heavy tow truck of a girl I do my very best to grin and bear it, but it's haaaard.

That was my very inoffensive, noncontroversial point from the beginning... how a girl looks when she moves improves dance connection. I've now devoted a few thousand words to the subject, so it must be clear? Jajaja.

Now let me ask you. Can you connect while you're doing shines? Simple yes or no.
 
elanimal said:
Now let me ask you. Can you connect while you're doing shines? Simple yes or no.
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If I may try to answer this from my perspective and experience.. It has happened to me, only perhaps 4-5 times in my 5ish years of dance experience, when there is such a deep, strong connection between my dance partner and I, with perhaps just the right amount of attraction, and the dance is fully, utterly for one another, yeah I can feel the connection while doing shines, no question. However, this happens waaay to rarely (to me), to make it count..

So can I feel the connection while doing shines: in certain special cases yes, on daily (well.. weekly) basis, unfortunately no.
 
elanimal said:
That was my very inoffensive, noncontroversial point from the beginning... how a girl looks when she moves improves dance connection. I've now devoted a few thousand words to the subject, so it must be clear? Jajaja.
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Well yes, you are clear, but I still disagree :p I mean I get it that body movement is a "tiebreaker" between two follows who are otherwise similar, but I still don't get how it enhances connection; assuming the one without great body movement is still doing a good, musical basic, but just doesn't have the "body movement it factor", the only way I can understand it is that the eye candy that someone with great movement gives you somehow enhances your connection.

For instance, there is a follow in NY who is a favorite among many of the top leads, who feel really good connection when dancing with her (so I've heard), yet when you see her dancing you would have no idea that she is seen as a top follow (in NY of all places) because she has almost no body movement and looks like a very average dancer.

In my case, when I dance with a guy who has good movement it's eye candy and nothing more, I will enjoy watching him of course, but it does almost nothing for the connection I feel with him; if I was to quantify it, I'd give it less than 5% -- not statistically significant :p. In other words, when I think of my favorite leads, and why I like them, good body movement doesn't even come to mind and if it is the case that he has good movement (like this Korean lead below who I adore dancing with :) ) then it's certainly at the bottom of the list, below all the things I mentioned earlier in the thread -- lead quality, smoothness & sharpness, musicality, playfulness, etc.



elanimal said:
Now let me ask you. Can you connect while you're doing shines? Simple yes or no.
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I have to qualify it :p Yes, you can, but not the same level of connection I can feel in partnerwork dancing. Often the shines connection happens because we've already connected through partnerwork, or we are friends and very comfortable and playful with each other, things like that. Or a really special kind of chemistry like Joco mentioned above. The connection I (can) feel when I move together with and in sync with another person, while connected to the music, is just much more magical than solo shines can ever be.

Listen to this (great) interview by Frankie in which he touches on this at 6:30. (He also talks about the pattern monkey puberty stage for guys :D ) Sound quality is very bad so you'll need to use earphones.

 
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Sabrosura said:
I mean I get it that body movement is a "tiebreaker" between two follows who are otherwise similar, but I still don't get how it enhances connection; assuming the one without great body movement is still doing a good, musical basic, but just doesn't have the "body movement it factor", the only way I can understand it is that the eye candy that someone with great movement gives you somehow enhances your connection.

For instance, there is a follow in NY who is a favorite among many of the top leads, who feel really good connection when dancing with her (so I've heard), yet when you see her dancing you would have no idea that she is seen as a top follow (in NY of all places) because she has almost no body movement and looks like a very average dancer.

In my case, when I dance with a guy who has good movement it's eye candy and nothing more, I will enjoy watching him of course, but it does almost nothing for the connection I feel with him
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In my opinion it's quantity vs quality

When watching a dancer from a distance / on performance etc, we mostly see quantity / volume. So more quantity is generally perceived as better by most people. I think it's nothing new - most commercials are based on that

On the other side, when dancing in a couple, we mostly perceive quality - harmony of movement of body parts of our partner, how they are balanced, how precise they are, how they change speed, shape etc ... These movements can be very small so they are barely visible and most people would say that a person has no body movement, but you still feel them clearly when dancing. Of course, compatibility of how two people dancing in a couple actually move is playing important role again. Kizomba for instance is nice to observe those differences among people you are dancing with, because body movements are slower and generally smaller than in salsa
 
Cool, so if one can connect during shines, how you look does influence connection. Glad we are in agreement :)

I see every individual dance as a game. You keep dancing and striving to get a higher score by connecting to the music and your partner as the song progresses. Feeling good, but not looking good, puts a cap on your ability to get a higher score. For the majority of people, when you break off for shines, the score remains the same, at best. Usually it goes down, connection suffers. FWIW, that's what happens to me. But, but, in certain inspired moments, that movement can push that 'connection score' completely to a different level, higher than even partnerwork can. Let's see an example.


Throughout the dance, Terry displays preternatural musicality in partnerwork. But what I remember from this dance when I think about it, and even when I listen to 'Okairí Okairá,' for that matter, is the sequence starting at 2:02.

How you look can push your dance out of the stratosphere. THAT is what I wish I had... to be able to transmit that connection to the music to my partner, without even touching them.

I am one guy who follows compliment all the time on how I feel, and in my more inspired moments, my musicality. However, I know of other guys who are complimented on their body movement, and girls swoon. It impacts their enjoyment of the dance. Their dances get 'high scores.' I would actually say you, @Sabrosura, might be in the minority in not really caring much about that. I'll point you to one dude in Boston in particular who's got this 'good movement' rep that follows love.

Tying this back to the point of the original thread, yes, I do care about how I look, both in partnerwork and in shines, because not being aware of this puts a cap on how much you and your partner can enjoy the dance. Ultimately, this is because it limits how you can connect to the music. Why do we record ourselves and pay attention to details to fix our dancing, if not to improve our connection, to our partner, and to the music.......? The answer is rather obvious, because that paradox has no logical explanation.
 
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But keep in mind that what you remember about Terry's dance with Martina might be very different than what she does. ;) Of course for an observer how a dancer looks will matter the most because they're not aware of how it feels for the partner that dancer is dancing with.
 
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