DJ Yuca
Son Montuno
Of all the misinformation in this thread, claiming that King Errisson is a white man has got to be the most ridiculous.
African-American Jazz Helped Create the Foundation of Salsa Music
- Thread starter AguaDulce
- Start date
Of all the misinformation in this thread, claiming that King Errisson is a white man has got to be the most ridiculous.
This is an alternative narrative that has been circulating for years. Note that the Jamaicans (and other West Indians) in NY and the UK have been spreading their sound system culture well before the 70's. Also, a similar culture emerged on the Caribbean coast of Colombia that led to champeta music. The difference is that the locals used African, Haitian, and other Caribbean records. Please google the article "Champeta: Therapy in the form of visionary Afro-Columbian Music."
I'd encourage you to use indigena instead. Indio is a term that is used in a derogatory manner.
My GF is from Soledad so I'm familiar with Champeta. I was living in Harlem and the Bronx during the early 70s so I don't know much about Jamaicans. When you can post some links, I'll check them out.
1derpalm
Son Montuno
You're right and I was a victim to it. I just scouted until I found an older archaic web site with a more complete line up.
However part of my point I maintain. It was a white composer, white producer and 2 white founding members. (I'm talking apache). But it is still African derived. Salsa is predominantly African IMO and you can't tell me different. I already stated why. But yes I was very confused as I was still thinking of the shadows and had recently watched the documentary on apache albeit got bored and shut it off. It seemed to only concentrate on JimGordon. So Illl take the L and apologize for my false statement.v
Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
It's recognized by a segment of educated people. What it isn't is nationally recognized as a whole. Those countries in South & Central America also seem to take issue with indigenous culture. Favoring their european roots overall (local media tells the tale). Not much different from the spanish-speaking Caribbean.
Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
I would ask you to do the same regarding there being sound systems being utilized by poor young people in the 'hood in NYC pre-70s or early '70s. I'd also say that it isn't the technology itself that's pivotal but how it was used.
Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
Son Cubano is African. It's neoAfrican. African-Cuban. African culture in the New World by way of Cuba.
Salsa Dura does not exist. It's a label that Salseros came up with to distinguish a non-commercialized approach to Afro-Cuban dance music from pop-oriented sounds (ie. "Salsa Monga," another non-musical label). The music that every single "Salsa" band plays today and since day one of the term "Salsa" being used as an adjective is African-Cuban. Africans and their descendants in Cuba and beyond are who developed the rhythms that dancers yesterday and today express themselves to.
Bachata Sensual is a watered down rendition of the Bachata dance genre, the way the ballroom competitors express Rumba, Cha Cha Cha and "The Salsa" are minstrel adaptations of their pre-popular forms of expression. Many think they're not connected but it's very much a part of the same source. Bachata Sensual also exists as a musical sub-genre (Romeo Santos, etc) and that is very much a Dominican, albeit Dominican diasporic, development.
Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
All due respect brother I mightily disagree with that notion. I don't know any bBoy from the 1970s who recognizes those two recordings as being foundational.
James Brown's 1960s discography and the funk era of the 1970s are the book of Genesis Chapter 1, verse 1 & 2 for pioneering old school bBoys (from NY at least).
There is certainly a lot of racism against Indigenous and afro-descendents, but a lot of people have a strong pride for their identity as well. They also have specific rights recognized internationally as distinct "peoples" thay have their own distinct institutions and governments.
Last edited:
Dominican Bachata can of course be sensual, non-sensual, romantic, cheerful, etc.
When I say Bachata Sensual, I obviously mean the Spanish version. Dominicans do not recognize "DJ Tronky" remixes as part of their Dominican culture or identity.
My statement was "Can you elaborate on what you mean since there where big sound systems and DJs in NYC before Cool Herc?" This video discusses some of the DJs in NYC before Herc became well known. **After you comment on the names mentioned, I can provide other first hand testimonials from other DJs that mention Cool Herc**
DJ Yuca
Son Montuno
I think everything else you have written here has been accurate.
I read a quote from Flash stating that back in the day i.e. when he was playing breaks in the 70s, 6 out of 10 of the tracks he played were white artists. But playing them the way he did with MCs rhyming on top obviously sounded very different to how the artists had envisioned their discs. In fact a rock fan might not even recognise tracks they know.
DJ Yuca
Son Montuno
Salsa dura and indeed salsa romántica are son-based music but they are definitely a NY version. So Afro-Cuban, NY style would be more accurate imo.
1derpalm
Son Montuno
I got into a long argument with. Alatin on line saying that the black sports guy doing "mambo" int the commercial (can't remember his name) was cultural appropriation. He said black Latinos don't identify as black, etc etc. It's nothing to do with African. It's Latino culture. Me being a d*CK said unless he is from Cuba or maybe a nuyorican he can't claim salsa either.
I don't know it bothered me but it was during the height of all the blm etc going on so I guess I was on edge for to my redneck (former) friends
1derpalm
Son Montuno
I'll take your word but most bboys I knew (albeit not from NYC) consider it foundational. Being more bby centric that is what I follow. Even crazy legs in the freshest kids says youre not a bboy if apache does t get you going.
But again s I just stated in another post, I live in an echo chamber being where I am from. A lot of older heads regailed me with stories like they were there but in fact they weren't. I had no way to know if they were being honest back then. You have 1st hand knowledge. I don't perceive you as having bias. In light of new evidence I always change my opinion when it is presented.
People in the U.S are not very knowledgeable about cultural identities in Latin America and the Carribean.
In U.S surveys it is usually:
- White
- Black or African American
- American Indian or Alaska Native
- Asian
- Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander
- Hispanic Origin and
- Not of Hispanic Origin.
An Indigenous person from South America might be referred to as "Of Hispanic Origin" in the U.S but it would not necessarily represent their true identities. Also, Afro-descendant people from e.g., Colombia, Surinam, and Brazil that still have their own governance institutions (e.g. Saramaka or Quilombos) might not identify with the label "African American" even if they consider themselves Afro-Colombian, etc. There are also peoples who identify as both Indigenous and of Afro-descent.
US-centric views should not be forced upon other people who identify differently.
This is of course also true for Latin-Americans; there has been a history of colonizers seeking to erase peoples' identities and make everyone believe they are just "mestizo" when that is not necessarily the case, but many Latin Americans themselves feed into it.
Last edited:
1derpalm
Son Montuno
My black cuban friend said "Who the f*CK said that.. a white Latino?". He also no stated that the government always gave them problems for being black. Plus my white cuban friends make black jokes. You'll forgive me if those are my frame of references.
But yes I know when they say negra it isn't as offensive as in white N.A.
As I said, I think I was on edge during that Convo in that time frame. I had was cutting ties due to racial remarks during that time and was on edge.
I still stand by my belief that it is predominantly African, but that's neither here nor there lol
Who the f said what?