African-American Jazz Helped Create the Foundation of Salsa Music

Richie Blondet said:
Nevertheless, Flowers did not enjoy notoriety outside of his generation comprising his locale. He also was known for spinning Disco music. Same with Disco King Mario, hence thr name. The musical elements in HipHop culture was the antithesis or contrarian response to Disco. He also never took part in the music industry when Rap became commercialized. The same can be argued for Herc. Only Herc is regarded as a godfather of HipHop. Flowers is not.
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Richie, what do you mean by Disco music? We are talking the late 60s and before 1973.

Everyone played James Brown. Herc was inspired by seeing others like Mario play and the reaction of the Blake Spades when James was played. Also, seeing guys like Pete DJ Jones using 2 turn tables.
 
AguaDulce said:
Richie, what do you mean by Disco music? We are talking the late 60s and before 1973.

Everyone played James Brown. Herc was inspired by seeing others like Mario play and the reaction of the Blake Spades when James was played. Also, seeing guys like Pete DJ Jones using 2 turn tables.
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What do you mean what do I mean? Disco. That's what those guys were spinning in the '70s.
 
Richie Blondet said:
Nevertheless, Flowers did not enjoy notoriety outside of his generation comprising his locale. He also was known for spinning Disco music. Same with Disco King Mario, hence thr name. The musical elements in HipHop culture was the antithesis or contrarian response to Disco. He also never took part in the music industry when Rap became commercialized. The same can be argued for Herc. Only Herc is regarded as a godfather of HipHop. Flowers is not.
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What I bolded was a narrative I read in the media years ago, but its all the same music in the late 60s and early 70s. The music your parents had. There was no Euro Disco at that time. Disco had a different connotation. Everyone played James Brown, Motown, etc.

Below, I posted a vid of an interview with the Grammy Award winner Grandmaster DXT. Very good insight into Hip Hop history.

You asked about Smokey. First off, let me say that it is well known that Grandmaster Flash used to carry creates for DJ Smokey.

DXT talks about how Smokie was a hero of his. He says Smokie played the beats before Herc but didn't have a "formidable sound system," even though he did battle Herc and Herc won because he had a better system. Smokey began in the late 60s so he still had the old technology. I remember how that was back in the day before Technic turntables. Guys used to have to put like cardboard under the record so they could move it independently of the turntable spinning. Also, the needles were very light so they would tape coins to the needle to hold it down.

He also talks about certain people's desire to keep the story the same because their name is in it. This is something that other Hip Hop artists have also stated when talking about the omission of figures that were essential to the creation and growth of Rap Music. If you don't ask them, they are not going to volunteer the information.


 
Richie Blondet said:
What do you mean what do I mean? Disco. That's what those guys were spinning in the '70s.
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Again, this is a foundational break beat that was released in 1972 and actually played in a Manhattan Disco and extended. It was all the same music in the late 60s and early 70s that guys like Herc, Flowers, Nu Sound, etc played. This was before Donna Summer and maybe what you are thinking about.

 
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Richie Blondet said:
Nevertheless, Flowers did not enjoy notoriety outside of his generation comprising his locale. He also was known for spinning Disco music. Same with Disco King Mario, hence thr name. The musical elements in HipHop culture was the antithesis or contrarian response to Disco. He also never took part in the music industry when Rap became commercialized. The same can be argued for Herc. Only Herc is regarded as a godfather of HipHop. Flowers is not.
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That was something that the media made up. There was a backlash against bad Disco, which eventually happened, but James Brown and Funk and R&R led to Disco groups like Chic. In tern, Disco and Hustle music was in heavy Hip Hop rotation by DJs like Flash.

Here is another Foundational Hip Hop song that was actually a Disco Hustle song

 
Here is another Foundational Hip Hop song that was actually a Disco Hustle song. From the group that brought you songs like Up Jump The Devil

 
Here is another Foundational Hip Hop song that was actually a Disco Hustle song. I could do this all day because it was the same "disco" music that Flowers, Mario, Flash, Breakout and everyone else played.

 
Richie Blondet said:
What music was DJ Smokey playing on his system? Was it Booker T & the MGs? Or was it Gloria Gaynor? Those are the details that are necessary to know.
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This might sound like Gloria, but its just another hustle song like Gloria's that is a Foundational Hip Hop/Rap Music Disco Song that was cut up by Flash and others.

 
Richie Blondet said:
The Playlist is key because the Playlist for what was viewed as authentic Rap/MC culture were predominantly accompanied by a DJ who offered non-Disco music.
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Also, this is what we considered Disco in the hood. This wouldn't necessarily be considered Disco by some people. This was also played by DJs that played Disco/Hustle/Rap/Hip Hop. Listen to the lyrics. That's what Mario was; a Disco King.

 
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AguaDulce said:
What I bolded was a narrative I read in the media years ago, but its all the same music in the late 60s and early 70s. The music your parents had. There was no Euro Disco at that time. Disco had a different connotation. Everyone played James Brown, Motown, etc.
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It's all the same music on radio. But in the underground, which is where it was taking place, like most genres that become popular, it was burgeoning. It certainly wasn't the bee gees. But their claim to fame is spinning the early recordings that were branded as Disco. Nevertheless the Motown sound is not HipHop.

Below, I posted a vid of an interview with the Grammy Award winner Grandmaster DXT. Very good insight into Hip Hop history.

You asked about Smokey. First off, let me say that it is well known that Grandmaster Flash used to carry creates for DJ Smokey.

DXT talks about how Smokie was a hero of his. He says Smokie played the beats before Herc but didn't have a "formidable sound system," even though he did battle Herc and Herc won because he had a better system. Smokey began in the late 60s so he still had the old technology. I remember how that was back in the day before Technic turntables. Guys used to have to put like cardboard under the record so they could move it independently of the turntable spinning. Also, the needles were very light so they would tape coins to the needle to hold it down.[/quote]

What you're describing is strictly related to DJ culture. Which is one element of the HipHop culture. Did Smokey, Flowers or Disco King Mario coin the term HipHop? Did they proclaim HipHop as a culture and spevifify 5 elements that everyone acknowledged represented the movement? Sorry to say but the guy being accused of pedophilia is who did. I'm not saying let's build a statue to honor him. But let's not revise history either and point to figures who weren't perceiving what they were doing in the context of culture.

He also talks about certain people's desire to keep the story the same because their name is in it. This is something that other Hip Hop artists have also stated when talking about the omission of figures that were essential to the creation and growth of Rap Music. If you don't ask them, they are not going to volunteer the information.
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That could all be resolved if they detail what it was exactly that they contributed that was in the context of the HipHop culture. Herc had bBoys Rocking at his parties. An MC or more. Those guys were playing records. Something that had been done by thousands of others before them. Nobody recognized it as HipHop. That's why no amount of interviews pointing to earlier DJs makes a difference to the overall narrative of who was prevalent when HipHop became acknowledged as a specific culture. Those guys deserve props perhaps as contributing forerunners to the music industry that surrounds the Rap genre. But HipHop is more than just rap.
 
AguaDulce said:
Also, this is what we considered Disco in the hood. This wouldn't necessarily be considered Disco by some people. This was also played by DJs that played Disco/Hustle/Rap/Hip Hop. Listen to the lyrics. That's what Mario was; a Disco King.

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How is playing this relevant to what an early MC spit lyrics over? Because if you're crediting Mario as a HipHop pioneer, that means we have to acknowledge downtown DJs, like tgat guy Nicky Siano, who ran The Gallery club in Soho. Because he was playing that too. Nicky Siano is a HipHop godfather? Nah.
 
Richie Blondet said:
How is playing this relevant to what an early MC spit lyrics over? Because if you're crediting Mario as a HipHop pioneer, that means we have to acknowledge downtown DJs, like tgat guy Nicky Siano, who ran The Gallery club in Soho. Because he was playing that too. Nicky Siano is a HipHop godfather? Nah.
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1) Brother Green (the Disco King). First, when someone said they were Disco in the hood back in the day, they didn't mean John Travolta. Disco King meant you got down with the music and dancing which was predominately funk/r&b.

2) The song, in and of itself, is an example of what we called Disco music, which is soul music and not Donna Summer. This Disco music, like the other youtube vids I posted, were played by all the DJs so the notion that guys like Flash and other Hip Hop DJs didn't play Disco is inaccurate.

3) The post with Nick demonstrates that 1) perhaps, people were extending break beats before Herc, 2) what was played in the very early 70s in the Discos was often the same R&B music that guys like Flash later played, 3) Again this notion that the same music wasn't being played in Discos before Herc and Flash by DJs before them is inaccurate. Pete DJ Jones, Mario, Smokey, and many others were playing song like Bra when it came out in 1972.

 
Richie Blondet said:
What you're describing is strictly related to DJ culture. Which is one element of the HipHop culture. Did Smokey, Flowers or Disco King Mario coin the term HipHop? Did they proclaim HipHop as a culture and spevifify 5 elements that everyone acknowledged represented the movement? Sorry to say but the guy being accused of pedophilia is who did. I'm not saying let's build a statue to honor him. But let's not revise history either and point to figures who weren't perceiving what they were doing in the context of culture.
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Keeping it real, when people talk about the multibillion dollar industry of Hip Hop, they aren't talking about vandalizing the subways or even burning aka bboying. They are mostly talking about what was commonly known as MCing and Rap music.

To a lessor extend, things like fashion and some urban dancing in general, perhaps. The term "Hip Hop" comes from rap, not from Bam, not from vandalizing the subways, not from burning aka bboying. I first heard the term Hip Hop when I went to see DJ Hollywood and Luv Bug Starski saying it in their rhymes.

I remember things like Mister Magic and the Rap Attack on WBLS. Or shows like MTV Raps. And this was in the 80s/90s. I can't speak to Bam and his definition because it wasn't part of my reality. I didn't know much about Bam until I saw him dressing up like one of the Village People to do Planet Rock. I had heard the name Bam and the Zulu Nation, but it had no bearing on my consumption of Rap music growing up in NYC.

 
This video was filmed inside of a park on the Upper West Side of Manhattan that encompassed West 98th Street to West 100th Street on Amsterdam Avenue. The alley they're walking through is one my friends and I made our way through many times. It is long gone as a new building structure (that looks like a metal box) was erected on the site that alley was adjoined to. Albeit the park is still there. What's gone from the park was a handball court that featured a ginormous 'throw up' or 'piece' that read "Rock Steady Crew." (Similar to the one in the video. Although that isn't the handball court I'm referring to). This school playground/public park, which was accessible 24/7, was known as the HQ for Rock Steady bBoys. Today the park has been renovated. All stone tables (where one could play chess) and benches have been removed. At dusk the gates close and no one is permitted inside. For 3 decades this was ground zero for the Rock Steady Crew. And there isn't any public marker located anywhere in thar space on Amsterdam Avenue that points to RSC as ever having been there once upon a time.

 
Richie Blondet said:
Yikes!

Not much of a turnout earlier this A.M. for the protest against the Universal HipHop Museum in front of City Hall. Perhaps more people showed up later? 9am on a Monday is tough for working class folks to get away from their usual schedule.

https://www.youtube.com/live/dDAlDS1TVAI?feature=share
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Yeah I'm on fence about how people are gonna feel. On one hand, you have (in the hip hop community) a lot of people that hate "That Fa***t $h!*" And are okay with sticking someone who loves that lifestyle, and they universally hate pedis, but they're either lazy or eerily silent. Tribe made an extremely anti homosexual song (blocked from release thankfully), and they're part of the Zulu nation. Haven't heard much from him. Mind you haven't searched in a 2hile. Jamar hates on gays pretty bad but I think he's made more videos on Vlad about how Eminem being white is his reason for success than he has comment about this. And fat Joe not overly upset either it seems. Not gonna lie, if I was a celeb id probably be distancing myaelf quite loudly from the UZN, or at least Bam and his inner circle.
Also that owoman seemed smug as hell in one of her last vids, which my push fence sitters to the other side.
 
1derpalm said:
Yeah I'm on fence about how people are gonna feel. On one hand, you have (in the hip hop community) a lot of people that hate "That Fa***t $h!*" And are okay with sticking someone who loves that lifestyle, and they universally hate pedis, but they're either lazy or eerily silent. Tribe made an extremely anti homosexual song (blocked from release thankfully), and they're part of the Zulu nation. Haven't heard much from him. Mind you haven't searched in a 2hile. Jamar hates on gays pretty bad but I think he's made more videos on Vlad about how Eminem being white is his reason for success than he has comment about this. And fat Joe not overly upset either it seems. Not gonna lie, if I was a celeb id probably be distancing myaelf quite loudly from the UZN, or at least Bam and his inner circle.
Also that owoman seemed smug as hell in one of her last vids, which my push fence sitters to the other side.
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I'm all for calling Bam and any who are complicit to task for any sort of abuse. I just think Leila has made a broad allegation with zero proof of what she contends. That the UHHM is nothing more than a 501C subdivision of the UZN.

Bam has resigned from his post as UZN President. The statute of limitations against abuse has long passed so there's no criminal case that can be brought to court. Her basis that UZN is who is calling the shots re: the museum is strictly revolved around the fact each entity has the term "Universal" as part of their identity. Her "history" agenda is also supremely questionable. I don't see why the museum itself has to be caught up in any pursuit of justice for victims of abuse Bam may be guilty of.

Again I support the cause ("Standing with Survivors") but the approach leaves me a bit skeptical. Hassan Campbell apparently did not show up to today's protest. He's been the biggest voice denouncing UZN, Bam and the UHHM. In other similar movements I've seen this sort of outcome before. People riling up the masses but when it's time to picket a venue, protest in public, and convene in lawful assembly to put a spotlight on an issue, the loudest voices are nowhere to be found. Or want to be off on the side. Filming. When bodies are needed to take part in protest. It doesn't need you to preserve it with a camera or to just show up.
 
Richie Blondet said:
I'm all for calling Bam and any who are complicit to task for any sort of abuse. I just think Leila has made a broad allegation with zero proof of what she contends. That the UHHM is nothing more than a 501C subdivision of the UZN.

Bam has resigned from his post as UZN President. The statute of limitations against abuse has long passed so there's no criminal case that can be brought to court. Her basis that UZN is who is calling the shots re: the museum is strictly revolved around the fact each entity has the term "Universal" as part of their identity. Her "history" agenda is also supremely questionable. I don't see why the museum itself has to be caught up in any pursuit of justice for victims of abuse Bam may be guilty of.

Again I support the cause ("Standing with Survivors") but the approach leaves me a bit skeptical. Hassan Campbell apparently did not show up to today's protest. He's been the biggest voice denouncing UZN, Bam and the UHHM. In other similar movements I've seen this sort of outcome before. People riling up the masses but when it's time to picket a venue, protest in public, and convene in lawful assembly to put a spotlight on an issue, the loudest voices are nowhere to be found. Or want to be off on the side. Filming. When bodies are needed to take part in protest. It doesn't need you to preserve it with a camera or to just show up.
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Surprised he didn't show up. Speaking of statute of limitations, when they labelled him a snitch he said "you wanna call me a snitch alright I'll snitch. There are some things that don't have a statute of limitations". I'm paraphrasing. But then as far as I remember they retracted the statement afterwards. But he seems more gangster than hip hop so maybe he doesn't care.
How the hell did I get sucked into observing this side of life? I'm an aging frail white hipster ex Bboy/club dancer/post punk fan that fell into salsa because I went to Cuba a lot. Now I'm pontificating on nyc outlaw gangs. Fml.
 
Good interview with Cholly Rock, who was part of the Black Spades gang in NYC and also a renown bboy in the early 70s. He talks about some of the other dances like the Latin Hustle that they used to dance as well and also about some of the inaccurate historical information regarding Hip Hop history in the Bronx.

 
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