1derpalm
Son Montuno
Nm. I have been responding on my breaks and not being clear. I wish I could erase the last 3 days from my lifem
African-American Jazz Helped Create the Foundation of Salsa Music
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Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
Again, they're just labels. They're not just Son-based. Those renditions distinguished by regions, etc is Son... period.Salsa Romantica is Guaracha-Son. Salsa Dura is Guaracha-Son. It's all the same music/rhythm being interpreted in (enter name of city/country). That it comes off as sounding distinctly from place to place/region to region doesn't alter the genre being interpreted. The Rumba from Matanzas Cuba was not expressed in the same manner as in Havana. They are Rumba nonetheless. If the set of characteristics and patterns that make it a genre are maintained then it is what it is. It's the public who comes up with alternative terminology to distinguish sounds that are associated with specific communities, cultures, environments, etc. But if you're playing Afro Cuban dance music in clave, whether it's a Mambo, a Cha-Cha-Cha, a Guajira, a Bolero, a Danzon, a Guaracha or a Montuno, one is interpreting Son. Be it from Colombia, Peru, Venezuela, the UK, NY, L.A., Italy, the Congo, etc.
I wouldn't classify Salsa Romantica as being a NY innovation because prior to that era in the 1990s you had artists from Puerto Rico and elsewhere doing the same kind of music. Lalo Rodriguez, Frankie Ruiz, Eddie Santiago, Paquito Guzman, etc, were all based outside of NY. Some classified it as Salsa Erotica. But the concept is the same. Which is Guaracha-Son. The more romanticized lyrical content makes it Bolero-Son or Bolero-Guaracheao'. Lyrical content defines or classifies a sub-genre as much as rhythms or orchestral formats do. The bottom line is it's all Son. Except when it's not (Bomba, Cumbia, Joropo, Pasodoble, Samba, Bossa Nova, Merengue, etc). Conceptually what we identify as Salsa Romantica goes back to the 1930s. What gets identified as "Salsa con Conciencia" (Ruben Blades, Willie Colon, Tite Curet Alonso, La Excelencia, Orquesta SCC, etc) is a concept that goes back to the 1920s. The music the eras they were produced in just sound distinct. A NY Afro-Cuban dance orchestra from 1945 sounds nothing like the Spanish Harlem Orchestra does today. But they both interpret(ed) a subgenre of Son.
Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
The thing is testimonials is not evidence, per se. At least not with regards to equipment. How do kids in the 'hood living in poverty afford these huge speaker systems that Herc had is a question that isn't asked. We know how Herc acquired his equipment, and is what made HIM stand out from the rest. How come those other guys' names didn't echo in the same exact ghetto just as loudly?
Whenever I've done research for "Latin Music" in NY-related projects, my thought process is that oral history only provides a window into a potential reality of the past. What one has to, or should do, IMO, is track down the claims or assertions being made and go about substantiating it all. Academia has a horrible protocol of studying music by way of other scholarship and oral history, and that's it. That's all that matters. Even if the subject is exaggerating or enhancing their account it doesn't matter. It's what they conveyed and that's what you publish. For someone like me, a student of history, who isn't a scholar, who isn't concerned about fitting information into a curriculum, or cares for academic allowances that permit one to infer something without proving it, I view it as being lax or laziness. And it is exactly why "something like the "Salsa" era has the narrative that it has in the U.S. and Latin America. Which is all a false history and can be proven so.
There's as much testimony pointing to Herc and his sister as being pioneers. Whether they are or aren't isn't the issue. Because the testimony gets bolstered with "receipts." Flyers, Photographs, etc. What needs to happen is to pursue the early consumers of DJ culture pre-'73 and hear it from them. That is if they're still breathing. Ask them if they took pictures and what their thoughts were on how impactful so and so was. That way an observer wanting to be educated gets a sense of how an audience "on the ground" was responding. This exists for Herc, Flash, Bam, Theodore, Jazzy Jay, Caz, Wiz, etc. And is why that narrative portraying them as the fathers of HipHop were universally embraced. Along the way some things got perpetuated that were just outlandish (ie. street violence in NY ended due to the rise of HipHop). But in terms of a cultural movement becoming defined as something specific, and who comprised this movement, there's enough of a consensus. These guys like former Black Spades and others challenging the narratives are johnny-come-latelys in the context of only recently proclaiming in a public manner some form of ownership to not just the culture, but as contributing to spreading or promoting it in the traditionally characterized manner it became by '77. There were plenty of opportunities to be given a platform before social media emerged. Documentaries were being produced. Ralph McDaniels, the first VJ, previously had a radio show where the pioneers were given a platform. Where have these cats been over 50 years that they've only surfaced now in the last half decade? It's only now in the 21st century that some folks from that era who may have been witness to these unsung DJs are now removed that these folks decided to express how they put HipHop on the map. And what's left is the ensuing generations that followed, who are educated via social media and are taking these new players accounts as gospel, and by default. They're not substantiating on their own what is being conveyed. Certain questions that revolve around the culture are not being asked for the sake of clarity. Because the ones filming these guys aren't part of it. Or they have an agenda that is not impartial to obtaining definitive and or reasonable accuracy with the historical record in mind.
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You didn't respond to any specific DJs that came before Herc and instead speak in generalities and the same old story that has been pushed by certain people.
Grandmaster Flowers from the Projects is an example of a DJ that was rocking in the late 60s and early 70s before Herc out in the Parks.
Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
Was it Victor Cruz of the Giants? (NFL)
When people speak in absolutes revolved around culture or communities they're arrogant peckerwoods. And that applies to races/ethnicities. Latinxs of African descent DO perceive themselves as "Black " Just like a Haitian, Trinidadian, or West African does. As much as any African American. Since ignorance is an element without borders you also have a segment of people from Guyana, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Panama and, hell, even in the U.S., who argue they are not "Black" or of African descent, due to the texture of their hair or some other trivial phobic detail.
Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
And you fail to point out the difference between the music that Flowers provided and what Herc did. Playing West Indian music is not what bBoys danced to or what an MC rapped over. Your focusing solely on incidentals. Like the folks who argue that the people inbthex1950s who rhymed in song were rapping a la a HipHop MC. That would be a false notion and just plain wrong.
DJ Yuca
Son Montuno
Agreed however when it comes to salsa, it's still Afro-Cuban music NY style (or son, NY style). In the case of the salsa that immediately followed from PR, Colombia and Venezuela: it's son, NY style, interpreted in a PR/Colombian/Venezuelan style. Why do I believe that? Because it sounds different to anything that has come out of Cuba. Yes it's the same or a similar structure to the Cuban music that came out prior to the mid 60s, the same Afro-Cuban percussion instruments and patterns, and often (especially in the 70s) the tunes are covers of old Cuban tracks. But the end result sounds different.
And it was the salsa sound that blew up massively in the 70s. Without it we wouldn't have all that we have today: the international salsa scenes (and this forum).
The discussion I was having was about sound systems in NYC. We weren't taking about what kind of music was being played. The assertion was made that Herc brought big sound systems to NYC. There were definitely large sound systems in NYC before Herc.
As an aside and unrelated issue that you raised, the guys in the late 60s and early 70s also played James Brown and Cymande. The music was the same. These were the guys that inspired Herc to play the music that he did. People played R&B and Funk primarily.
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DJ Yuca
Son Montuno
Everything thing I've seen from the pioneering DJs states Apache and The Mexican as 2 of the very biggest tunes on the hip hop scene prior to the early 80s. Apache was described by Flash as the national anthem of hip hop, was covered by The Sugarhill Gang, included on Adventures on the Wheels of Steel and sampled elsewhere. The Mexican was interpolated on Planet Rock.
Not to negate your contacts' experiences, but they may be exceptional.
Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
Sure. Songs like "Beat Box" by the Art of Noise, "Buffalo Gals" by Malcolm McLaren, and "Rock It" by Herbie Hancock were songs that I witnessed many bBoys dancing top and low rock, and engaged in electric boogie to. But these are not "foundational" anthems that bBoys developed a physical language to. James Brown, Curtis Mayfield, Earth Wind & Fire, the Jones Girls, etc. is what I recall a bBoy typically danced to on concrete and, later, the cardboard. A song like "The Mexican" was appreciated in NY moreso by the "freestyle" music loving crowd. Which was dominated by Latinxs on both the artist's and consumer end. Albeit influenced by the music that was associated with Rap. But instead of rapping verses, it was sung moldically. And, in retrospect, by some pretty horrible vocalists that wouldn't have otherwise made it had it not been for a local market that supported it and didn't care about range, tone, etc.
It's all about context like you alluded. Like you I'm subject to my reality of where I'm from and what I'm exposed to. If "Apache" and "The Mexican" were anthems that got you into the whole culture then that's your reality and it isn't any less valuable then someone who got hooked on dancing top rock style to "Nights of Egypt" in the '70s. I should have expressed it in a more broader manner and not come off as so definitive. It's just almost like a default response or mindset that when something like HipHop is being discussed and someone points out Will Smith, B.I.G., and Jay Z as being pioneers or Top 5 rappers, etc, I can't help think where would they be without Caz, Kane or Rakim? Even Eminem, who is regarded by 50 Cent as the best rapper alive kept it real when he (Em) singled out "Treach" of Naughty by Nature as a pivotal influence of the lyrical phrasing style he emulates. There's always something that comes before.
From experience the whole "I was there" argument isn't automatically credible or a slam dunk. I hear or heard that a lot in investigating the Latin Music story in NYC. Even folks like Mario Bauza, Tito Puente, Machito and any other so-called pioneer "who were there" can be corrected or challenged with real documented data. That comes across as blasphemous or arrogant by the cult who has them or any artist on God-like pedestals but there's no God's in the music entertainment industry (except for Miguelito Valdes and Rakim) .
Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
Contacts? I'm going by my experience. What I regularly saw people dancing to, as much as the Mexican or Apache. If Flash feels Apache is the "national anthem" of HipHop that's his opinion. Some have proclaimed it as being Rapper's Delight. When I was a kid this is what I heard regularly being played in Harlem by a dj and that kids were grooving to:
The song has been sampled by everyone from Flash, Doug E. Fresh, Diddy and Boogie-Down Productions. Who's to say this isn't in the running for being HipHop's anthem? It's a matter of opinion.
BTW-I never caught that "The Mexican" was "interpolated" on Planet Rock. The only HipHop remake I can recall is this one by the Funky Four [+1]:
Do you know where on "Planet Rock" does "The Mexican" get inserted? I'll have to re-listen. Haven't listened to Planet Rock since, at least, '84 bro.
Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
That's a reasonable assertion that I've no doubt against. That there were definitely large sound systems in NYC before Herc. The question becomes where could those large sound systems be found in NYC, primarily? In discotheques? Or in the rubbles of the South Bronx? What music was emanating from these large sound systems wherever they could be found? Who was using them? Who was experiencing the music emanating from these systems? Because the latter question posed is also how one defines culture. As to whether it reflects a people and their experiences.
We're these many unheralded DJs mixing, holding the break, dropping the needle, with ginormous speakers attached to large sound system? A video of someone claiming to have done so opens up a discussion that more research is needed. But the burden of proof is still on them. There's audio of everyone doing what they claimed they did (Herc, Flash, etc). Is there audio of these folks doing these things in a then-modern or clasdic HipHop context who you're suggesting deserve more recognition than Herc, etc?
Another area that I don't see being mentioned was how did certain DJs manage to have what they were doing "travel" to other parts of the city? Especially when it wasn't on commercial or even public radio, and it wasn't sold in stores. The music industry establishment certainly did not recognize it. So what was the most seamless manner that a kid from Queensbridge or Long Island, Marcy Avenue in Brooklyn, 141st Street & Lenox Avenue in Manhattan, and kids living in Yonkers or Washington Heights, with no money, no means of non-public transportation, or familiarity with the players taking part, would be exposed to the musical activity happening near the Sedgewick Houses, the Forrest Avenue Projects, Fox Street, Melrose Houses, Prospect Avenue, etc? What was available and more affordable, that allowed for mobility and that was giving a platform to the DJs who actually made tapes to customers, who might have otherwise not have discovered them? Because that's part of early HipHop history not being touched on by few, if any, videos on youtube.
Also you implying that it was a "typical" phenomena to see DJs with huge sound systems in the rubbles, playgrounds or spaces where HipHop took its baby steps of NY doesn't hold weight without evidence. If that isn't what you're claiming then I misconstrued what you wrote. But if it is, while I could believe you, or believe there is a possibility of it, it's still an unproven notion. The kind of system that Herc had was not commonly seen outdoors in broad daylight. Which is where HipHop lived prior to becoming identified as such. Herc had a crew that protected him from the street element that would've robbed them.
Funk and R&B were definitely part of the soundtrack of the day. But, in the Bronx, Harlem and Brooklyn sections where "Black" communities resided (not sure about Queens) West Indian music was also prevalent in the late '60s and early '70s. You know how I know without "being there?" The music (recordings) produced in the era informs you. Amid other clues. Everything from Miles Davis to Isaac Hayes inserted the musical activity of the day that people of African descent was bopping their heads to. Even "Salsa" was influenced by this reality of the environment. A Bronx-based ensemble like Frankie Dante y La Flamboyan are an example of a beneficiary of what's musically taking place in the Bronx, and amongst "Black" culture in NYC, circa the 1970s:
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There are a few different issues.
1) Did Herc bring the large sound system concept to NYC? As far as I know, there were already large sound systems in NYC. The original assertion wasn't qualified with where they were found in NYC.
2) What is a large sound system? Herc may have had the biggest system in his area at the time. That doesn't mean that others didn't have large systems as well. As time went on, systems got bigger and move advanced as the technology improved. What DJ Smokey and his break dancers were using at outdoor parties in 1971 wasn't what Disco King Mario was using when he rocked outdoors for a whole month in the summer of 1973 and so on.
3) Herc was initially a guy that threw parties indoors, according to the accounts of his partner Coke La Rock and others. The infamous party in 1973 that Herc threw was indoors. When Herc got stabbed multiple times, it was indoors.
4) As far as the music, I can only speak for myself. When I first heard of Herc and Hip Hop, James Brown was the person that I remember hearing all the time. Coming out of the civil rights movement, everyone was playing James Brown in the hood. "Give It Up Or Turn It Loose" was the Bboy anthem.
This video contains testimony from people that went to Herc's early parties as well as Herc. Also notice that Herc wasn't cutting. He wasn't doing anything really different than what was going on as far as manipulating the turntables. It's best to hear from the man himself:
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Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
But even if Salsa from NY had been those countries primary reference to draw from (it was not) they're indirectly being exposed to what influenced NY. Which is Afro Cuban music from Cuba.
I'm not following (understanding) your line of reason. You identify Salsa from NY as Afro Cuban style in NY. But Salsa from South America and Puerto Rico as "Son" with a NY signature. What is the rhythmical difference between Afro-Cuban music NY style "Salsa" and the alleged NY "Son" style interpreted in PR, South America, or even Cuba and DR?
And why distinguis Son from Afro Cuban music? They are one and the same.
"Salsa" blowing up commercially on a global level in the 1970s is a myth perpetuated by the Fania industrial complex. Recycled by the social media Mafia (youtube, Facebook historians, the gram, twitter), musicians who never properly investigated the subject and went by word of mouth, and a majority of academics who've written about "Salsa" or "Latin Jazz," many of whom refuse to acknowledge discographies and other key elements not cited in scholarship. The attitude being if it's not published then it never happened.
Cuban Popular Music has been internationalized since the advent of the recording industry becoming viable in the 1920s. What exists today (the dance Congress scene, forums like these, etc) falls within the context of identifying Afro-Cuban music as "Salsa."
"Salsa" artists from the 1970s are beneficiaries, and not pioneers, of the musical sub-genres or other forms they did not contribute to creating, and the international routes and doors open to them, that were established decades earlier by an earlier generation of musical artistry and industry people. There's a salsaforums today due to technological advancement that allows myself to communicate and exchange with you and make the world a smaller place. But people convening to discuss topical subject matter, like "Salsa," is not because of the '70s generation. In relation to Afro Cuban, or any music that is popular, such arenas already existed in real life. Conventions, formal gatherings, etc. As a former sound collector I made my way to many of these events before the interbet came along. Before eBay I would submit an ad to be placed in the back of a magazine for $5.50 offering a record for sale. The orchestra leader Willie Rosario attends each Sunday or 2-3 Sundays a month a gathering with several other aficionados of "Salsa," and they engage in-person the exact same thing we're doing here on salsaforums.
Don't believe the hype of the "Salsa" '70s brother. There was no more of an explosion than there was in the '60s, '50's or 1940s. The latter of which is when Afro-Cuban music actually went mainstream in the USA on a level not seen previously or since. "Live at the Cheetah" may have seemed like a big deal to a kid coming up in that era. I thought the 1990s was the most successful era ever in Salsa history... in 1995. Today I know better. In the context of industry and influence the "Salsa" explosion was a firecracker. Globally more people were tuned in to Julio Iglesias than they were to Hector LaVoe. Jose Feliciano, Raphael, Pimpinela, Los Angeles Negros, Angela Carrasco, Amanda Miguel, and friggin' Menudo had more cache and relevance with Spanish speaking consumers throughout the Americas and Europe than the Fania All-Stars, Willie Colon & Ruben Blades, and Celia Cruz during the 1970s.
When I moved out of the Bronx, which was before Herc, and into Manhattan was the first time I heard beats being extended. Manhattan had many clubs and the best DJs would play on the best equipment and they would extend the good parts of the record. Guys would take what they heard in the clubs back in 72-73 and I would hear it on what we used to call "Pause Button DJs" and their cassette tapes as well as DJs at the community centers and block parties.
In this video, the guy explains one of songs that got extended in the early 1970s. I used to love to dance to this song lol
Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
Absolutely not. Did he introduce it to a low income audience of teenagers in a South Bronx ghetto? Maybe. More than anything his claim to fame was his sound system. More non-downtown DJs who were African American, West Indian, Latinx, etc, were rocking the set up that Flash had and, ultimately, Grand Wizard Theodore. Which makes sense because that type of equipment Herc had cost $$$ and these kids were dirt poor and not hustling on the street.
Correct. But it was Herc's name that echoed early on. And unlike Flowers and Disco Mario, Herc wasn't spinning Disco records. So when you say that the norm was R&B and Funk offered by those unheralded DJs I have to disagree and is why I can't view Flowers or Disco King Mario as HipHop culture pioneers. I can embrace them as early influences on HipHop DJs who come after them. They are DJ forerunners to the DJ/Rap evolution post-1975, that even Herc missed out on for whatever reason.
Herc was living in the Bronx since '67. That the "birth" of HipHop was decreed to be in '73 doesn't reflect when Herc became a DJ. He had already been doing so prior to that birthday party at the Sedgewick Houses recreation room.
What music was DJ Smokey playing on his system? Was it Booker T & the MGs? Or was it Gloria Gaynor? Those are the details that are necessary to know. The Playlist is key because the Playlist for what was viewed as authentic Rap/MC culture were predominantly accompanied by a DJ who offered non-Disco music. Did Smokey use similar language on the mike as Herc that became the norm for MCs? ("Ah yes, yes y'all, ah to the beat y'all, 'Cause it's fresh! AND ya don't stop," etc.)
Yes, in alternative spaces that had no cabaret license. But if your suggesting he was exclusively operating indoors that would be inaccurate. DJ Kool Herc contributed to the Park Jam phenomenon. So did Flash, Bam, and everyone else that emerged in the mid to late '70s. Photographs demonstrate this, and magazine articles also reference this.
For me it was DJ Jazzy Jay and, actually, Clark Kent, before I had ever even heard of the Herculoids. Which us weird since he was a part of that crew. Charlie Chase for sure with the Cold Crush. By the time I discovered Herc had even existed he had already been overshadowed by Flash, Theodore, Bam, and the rest. The DJ for the Funky Four whose name I can't remember. I learned years later Herc had bowed out of the scene altogether by the late 1970s. I heard or read he had an addiction issue. Not sure if that was the cause. So many others, like those guys you mention. Flowers, Mario, etc. Drug addiction is what kept them from moving forward and adapting to the developments of HipHop DJ turntablism.
BTW-Not to get too technical because I know what you mean. But the civil rights era was still very much a pro-active presence in neighborhoods post-1969. If anything the extremist wings of the civil rights era began to step it up between '70-'74. The Panthers, the Lords, the Weather Underground, the FALN (aka "Los Macheteros"), etc. They are the backdrop to the gang culture and the urban forms of dance expression like Rocking. Which spun in two directions. bBoying/Top Rock and the Hustle. There was a lot going on in the early '70s in NY that wasn't just pre-HipHop related and had an effect on the youth in their perception of the street gang culture. A lot of new forms of expression emerged.
Scratching had never been an element Herc was credited with pioneering. That would be Theodore.
Yes. But also as many others as possible who can give their POV. In order to get a wider scope of "back in the day." As well as data to pursue further documentation, leads, etc.
Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
Nevertheless, Flowers did not enjoy notoriety outside of his generation comprising his locale. He also was known for spinning Disco music. Same with Disco King Mario, hence thr name. The musical elements in HipHop culture was the antithesis or contrarian response to Disco. He also never took part in the music industry when Rap became commercialized. The same can be argued for Herc. Only Herc is regarded as a godfather of HipHop. Flowers is not.
1derpalm
Son Montuno
Hot take, I respect but don't like Rakin, per Se. Second hot take, Kane beat KrS in the versus IMO
1derpalm
Son Montuno
Right before and during the "Ze ze ze zeze" part at the end before the Rock it don't stop. It's a synth reproduction of the guitar part at the end (itself lifted from a western).