Why do some dance schools focus more on shines than partnerwork?

[DancingGuy]

At Santo Rico, their classes are two hours, which consists of 1 hour and 30 minutes for shines and the remaining 30 minutes for partnerwork. That's 75% shines and 25% partnerwork. I heard Eddie Torres' school is the same way.

Why do they focus so much more on shines and less on partnerwork? In socials, aren't you going to be doing more partnerwork?

Not that I mind the shines. I actually enjoy them, but I don't understand why they can't split it in half.....i.e. 50% shines and 50% partnerwork.

 

[azzey]

That's 75% shines and 25% partnerwork.

So it's 75% doing basic steps on your own and 25% doing basic steps with the girl.

Why do they focus so much more on shines and less on partnerwork? In socials, aren't you going to be doing more partnerwork?

99% of the dance is about doing the basics well. I would hazard they want you to become so good at doing the basic step properly that when you dance with a partner you can do it in your sleep and concentrate on connecting with and leading her well.

 

[malcolm]

That would be my guess too.

 

[kbitten]

for me should be 50/50 at least..in fact for me in the beginning shoulb be 75 partnerwork and 25 shines because :

1 - you dont go to a salsa class to stay alone at the dance floor doing your shines.
2 - you go to learn to dance with someone or have some interaction
3 - you can practice your basic step while doing figures, dont have to do shines for that
4 - if you met people and enjoy dancing with them, thats a better chance you keep doing your classes

 

[Shines]

At Santo Rico, their classes are two hours, which consists of 1 hour and 30 minutes for shines and the remaining 30 minutes for partnerwork. That's 75% shines and 25% partnerwork. I heard Eddie Torres' school is the same way.

Why do they focus so much more on shines and less on partnerwork? In socials, aren't you going to be doing more partnerwork?

Not that I mind the shines. I actually enjoy them, but I don't understand why they can't split it in half.....i.e. 50% shines and 50% partnerwork.

Why wouldn't you ask Tomas Guerrero this question as opposed to people that don't make the decision about how SR should structure their classes?

 

[sweavo]

It's called training.

Turn patterns and shines are only vocabulary.

The actual skill in dancing comes from training your timing, balance, coordination, etc. Shines give you that better than partnerwork.

 

[John S2]

My advice to anyone who is becoming frustrated at attending classes that spend 50% of the time (or greater) not in contact with a partner is to change schools. Leading and following skills are what matter most. It is stating the obvious that the more time that is spent on solo work the less there is available for developing partnerwork.
In my area there is a very strong negative correlation between retention rates and the proportion of time in classes spent on shines. By 'retention rate' I mean the proportion of beginners that are still attending salsa classes 2 months, 3 months, or 6 months later with the same teacher. If people are not making sufficient practical progress at partnerwork they dump salsa and choose a different way to spend their free time.

 

[sweavo]

My advice to anyone who is becoming frustrated at attending classes that spend 50% of the time (or greater) not in contact with a partner is to change schools.

Mine's the oppposite.

Leading and following skills are what matter most.

What makes me one of the best leaders in my town? Sure I've lots of experience of dancing patterns. But what made me already obviously a good leader from day 1 and impressed everyone in my beginner class?

It was having my timing nailed, it was having very good balance from other hobbies and being sure footed from my previous dance studies; it was an appreciation for rhythm and a skill at multitasking and equilibristics that came from other hobbies.

So yes, leading and following skills are important. But you don't get leading and following skills by learning turn patterns (especially not followers).

And partner work is not the whole of dancing by a LONG stretch.

It is stating the obvious that the more time that is spent on solo work the less there is available for developing partnerwork.

This is only true if you believe there is no crossover in benefits.

In my area there is a very strong negative correlation between retention rates and the proportion of time in classes spent on shines.

This doesn't add up logically. You are saying beginner students [who by definition know nothing] judge that shines are not worthwhile. This last bit is marketing advice to teachers, not training advice for beginners.

 

[lurker]

i agree with sweavo. Adding my two cents would be repeating what he said.

 

[DancingGuy]

Why wouldn't you ask Tomas Guerrero this question as opposed to people that don't make the decision about how SR should structure their classes?

A couple of people at the Beginner class are like me…..they used to go to an inferior dance school. They had some similar questions like me, such as: why is the man placing his right hand on the middle of the woman’s back as opposed to their left shoulder blade? So they asked Tomas. His reply was, “What the heck were you doing at another dance school?” The guy’s reply was, “I didn’t know about Santo Rico at the time.” Then Tomas replied, “Well, now you know better. You’re now going to learn the RIGHT way.”

Based on the way Tomas is, I can see he’s the kind of person that wants you to put FULL trust in his method. Just let him train you, don’t question his method, and he promises to turn you into an amazing dancer!

 

[Shines]

A couple of people at the Beginner class are like me…..they used to go to an inferior dance school. They had some similar questions like me, such as: why is the man placing his right hand on the middle of the woman’s back as opposed to their left shoulder blade? So they asked Tomas. His reply was, “What the heck were you doing at another dance school?” The guy’s reply was, “I didn’t know about Santo Rico at the time.” Then Tomas replied, “Well, now you know better. You’re now going to learn the RIGHT way.”

Based on the way Tomas is, I can see he’s the kind of person that wants you to put FULL trust in his method. Just let him train you, don’t question his method, and he promises to turn you into an amazing dancer!

I think I know the answer to your question, but you still didn't answer mine. I'm not going to give you my answer cause I can't speak for Tomas and I'm not gonna assume I know why he does what he does. That would be presumptuous of me. I'm sure Tomas or one of the other advanced dancers could explain the value of shines (i.e., footwork in street terms).

Let me tell you a little bit about myself. I used to take those classes. When I tried another school, the instructor said the same thing to me about SR that Tomas says to you guys about other schools. Every school has its strengths and weaknesses. The key is for you to figure out what works best for YOU. I left SR and never looked back and think I'm a better dancer for it, but I also think SR has a great program and I respect their approach ... it just wasn't what worked best for my needs.

People can give you their opinion/theory of why the shine composition is the way it is, but only the designer and those he has provided the knowledge truly know.

 

[DancingGuy]

My advice to anyone who is becoming frustrated at attending classes that spend 50% of the time (or greater) not in contact with a partner is to change schools. Leading and following skills are what matter most.

Let me tell you a little bit about myself. I used to take those classes. When I tried another school, the instructor said the same thing to me about SR that Tomas says to you guys about other schools. Every school has its strengths and weaknesses. The key is for you to figure out what works best for YOU. I left SR and never looked back and think I'm a better dancer for it....

Hmmm...... :?

 

[kbitten]

you dont have to stuck with any school..like everybody here said the 1st time you ask for help, I am going to repeat: youre at NY, you can try as many classes as you want until you find the one that better suits you..you can be happy with SR and go to yamulle, go to baso, go to ET..its not like betrayal..there will be differences from one to another, you will discover what works best for you as soon as you forget about this "magic school that will turn you the best dancer" dream

 

[DancingGuy]

I actually like Santo Rico because it's one of the few schools that have cycle classes. Ever since I started dancing in May, I dreamed of finding a good school that offered progressive classes. Walk-in classes are great, but it just seems like there's no goal. At least, in the progressive classes at SR, the classes have a goal that they want you to reach. And IMHO, you can become a better dancer that way.

 

[acpjr]

At Santo Rico, their classes are two hours, which consists of 1 hour and 30 minutes for shines and the remaining 30 minutes for partnerwork. That's 75% shines and 25% partnerwork. I heard Eddie Torres' school is the same way.

Why do they focus so much more on shines and less on partnerwork? In socials, aren't you going to be doing more partnerwork?

You are describing my dream school. There are many schools my way that don't do shines at all or do so for only 10 minutes during a 60 minute class.

1.5 hrs for shines?! I bet the students turned out by that school have really good timing.

A cynical view would be that shines are filler that make you work up a sweat, thus creating the feeling of a "full" class, almost like a workout. For me, this is ideal. I've experienced teachers fill in time by showing a pattern then turning on the music to allow the students in rotation to practice - the thing is, they keep each rotation to a half a song or more and disappear to play with their smart phone!

To me, more shines = more value. Unless the class is a beginner class, you should already be comfortable with the nuances of partner dancing (presumably by cutting your teeth on the dance floor) that you can be shown the pattern twice or thrice, rotate a bunch of times and be done with it. If you have trouble with that, perhaps you're at the wrong level.

I suppose you can make the argument the other way, but I feel that drilling shines in a class, in front of a mirror, behind an instructor, where you have to keep time and be in sync with the rest of the class and the instructor, improve fundamental elements such as balance, timing and posture, which can only make your styling and pattern work better.

 

[DancingGuy]

1.5 hrs for shines?! I bet the students turned out by that school have really good timing.

As described on their websites, their timing is impeccable!! The timing of the advanced students is spot on, even with songs that have A LOT of transitions. They're amazing!! I suck at spotting transitions, so if/when I reach their Intermediate level classes, I'm going to be one heck of a lousy student.

 

[SnowDancer]

I used to think shines practice was a waste of time, but now I've got the religion. I'd say stick with it, and you'll appreciate it. If you want more partnerwork, attend one of BaSo's classes for that in addition to your regular SR. The whole time will be spent on learning a pattern, and it's a drop-in class.

 

[malcolm]

the thing is, they keep each rotation to a half a song or more and disappear to play with their smart phone!

I would enjoy publically chewing out any teacher that so much as looked at their telephone during the time I'm paying for :evil:

 

[azzey]

It's called training.

Turn patterns and shines are only vocabulary.

The actual skill in dancing comes from training your timing, balance, coordination, etc. Shines give you that better than partnerwork.

Both are about moving the body well, but in one you're focused on your partner more and in the other (shines) you're focused on yourself more.

 

[John S2]

Unless the class is a beginner class, you should already be comfortable with the nuances of partner dancing (presumably by cutting your teeth on the dance floor) that you can be shown the pattern twice or thrice, rotate a bunch of times and be done with it. If you have trouble with that, perhaps you're at the wrong level.

This view is worlds away from reality. Many people who are definitely not beginners need far more practice than this to be able to remember a move, which is why sufficient time needs to be allocated in the class session.
It's no good suggesting people go away and practice something that they have already forgotten.