What's the proper response to: "Oh I'm not a pro or good dancer like you!"

[MamboJazz]

But the leader of the pack was being greeted by every single woman at the venue. I’m sure people were aware of his reputation. People aren’t stupid. But they still hooked up with him anyway. But this is when I realized your status in the community plays a big role.

The status of a male is the most important trigger for women, even more important than being tall. It takes a while for men to realize because they don't think like this, for men the status of a female isn't cause of attraction. And being a leader gives males high status immediately (one reason some like to become salsa instructors). And so the young punk girl feels attracted to the leader of that bunch of punks equally as the conservative business woman feels attracted to the leader of the company. The principle is always the same. One can lament about it but not really blame women to follow their instincts. Men do the same.

Not saying they’re all like that since I met a couple of other Latino guys at the same festival who were not career players, but the vibe around them is similar. It’s about having fun and expressing it openly, which is not something that comes naturally to me.

Latin countries have a way different culture between genders. Women appreciate men, they like them, and so men grow up with the feeling to be welcome: that makes it easy to act naturally. My experience in northern europe is different: men are under suspicion and have often the feeling to not be welcomed by women, although they act in average shy compared to latino men.

I remember that well-known female cuban dancer giving a reggaeton course in a german small town and smilingly explaining reggaeton lyrics: it's about "sexo - mucho sexo!". You should have seen the faces of the audience blushing - they better don't smile too openly, otherwise they are suspicious to like sex, and that's not accepted for both genders.

 

[Offbeat]

LMy experience in northern europe is different: men are under suspicion and have often the feeling to not be welcomed by women,

Huh suspicion about what ?

otherwise they are suspicious to like sex, and that's not accepted for both genders.

Have they gone sterile or is there anti-sex movement?

 

[Bostontraitor]

I don’t dance with the same person for more than 3 songs unless there is a special relationship between us. In such case people will observe it and not wait for the next dance.

 

[artimalid]

Skill does play a role but it’s not as big as one thinks. I‘ve always been one of the better dancers in my scene, but only in the last few years did I embrace that side of myself that wanted to explore what it means to establish an intimate connection with someone on the dance floor. Also, when you really feel it with someone, you just know it, and when you express your desire to continue dancing, it doesn’t feel weird or sleazy as you are aligned with your feelings internally. All you’re doing is allowing yourself to express those desires openly.

This is something I've been trying to expand on. It's even harder when you only have 3 minutes with someone, but I guess the second dance with them can help.

How do you know when you're "really feeling it with someone"? Because as an average looking and decent dancing guy, there's been times where dances can be misleading. If we're talking about connection-personal intention & interest, it can get confusing.

There were times were the follow would really stare in my eyes as if we're in love, and I ofcourse, know that it's part acting. When I was trying to socialize other than just dancing, I'd remember the follow who quickly said "no" without hesitation when I asked her if she has social media, as if I was even trying to hit on her. I just thought that our dance was pretty decent even when she clearly was a BS dancer & was making all sorts of mistakes, I tried my best to accommodate & actually had a fun time & thought she felt the same & that's why I asked. Her quick quip definitely felt a bit rude, & she's got smedia, just prob thought I was hitting on her.

So I'm not sure what you mean. Is it just also acting in the end? We're all just acting more or less then, right?

I do know how it feels when you "connect" with someone very well. But it's really hard to distinguish because it can be a very good "technical" connection that you just really love it though you probably don't want anything to do with their being or whole person. Or it could be that they really just don't know how to dance but found you fancy because you appear to be dancing decently than the rest & that she prob doesn't quite know what the social dance context is, she prob just joined that night expecting to club or meet someone.

What do you also mean by intimate? Because I can dance with a follow but her husband is right around the corner, I wouldn't do any "intimate" moves, but the connection is there because her skill matches mine or is above (she happens to be an instructor) and then we also "connected". I can't even imagine the mental hoops people in BS especially in the fusion scene (kiz, zouk) may feel because those songs are all about romanticism. So then, I come back to my mention of acting, so then we're all just acting? Or sort of, living a short embodiment of pretend, just like as if we're playing with toy action figures. I just don't want to step or cross any boundaries or lines because I want to keep it classy. I think I'll answer half of this question in saying that it's probably a good segway into allowing both souls to express movement (even if the song is about monogamous romanticism) and just maybe showing and also appreciating that other person? I think it's even better if you come at it with a mindset of having "no intentions". I think in this scene, especially for typical average looking guys, women are the ones to approach or definitely choose the man if they want to go beyond than just dancing. This goes especially in the states, kind of an irony because latin culture are prideful of men going above and beyond, being playful, being persistent.

 

[artimalid]

My night is still just really about dancing, but I’m open to experiencing more if I feel something mutual is brewing.

There is a lot of psychology behind this which goes beyond the scope of this discussion. I’m not an expert. I’m basing this all on my experiences, but there’s so much more than just observing behavior and labelling it as “good” and “bad”. You should experience it for yourself to understand the ideas deeply.

Great take. My instructor used to say that in order to have a good night of dancing, especially leaving the place alone and not getting bothered by it, is having life completely "full" of abundance.

Observing behavior is interesting but I think you can never pin down assumptions 100%. I had a follow gesture hitting my behind, when I just turned my back to her to do some own self shines, I think she was both nervous & didn't know what to do so she did that, and intimidated because I happen to be one of the only decent dancers that night, so I think she didn't get to show her real expressions, she was probably still new to the scene but she danced normally well.

There are also women who are so good with their poker faces. You'd think they fell in love with you. Some are just tough nuts to crack, I'm not saying this because I have other intentions but at times, it's hard to judge or express and "lead" when their facial expression is as bland as watching paint dry. Not even mentioning body language. It's definitely conversing while dancing. I think the best indicator here is that if they were open to sharing social media, and you two hit it up right away going to other events, then high chance that it can form more than just an acquaintance.

I’ve even said it before to someone but I’m better at expressing it through my actions on the dance floor through leading.

What do you mean by this? Do you suddenly increase your hair combs and hybrid body rolls if you really like the person? Or you turn your gear 4 notches up and present them the best?

 

[artimalid]

And even if this isn’t true, it’s a fact that celebrities aren’t there to dance socially and just want to boost their image otherwise they wouldn’t be a F&ck$ing celebrity. This is big reason why I hate celebrity culture in social dancing.

This is a very interesting take.

My gut feeling was to avoid my scene's "mini" celebreties. I think it can help to recognize categories for these. There are instructor celebrities, and "mini" celebrities, some of them are just for clout chasing, others are passionate for the dance, I don't understand it as well. I'm sure it can get someone somewhere, but what does one get trying to be all in social media highlights, especially when just doing the same BS moves over and over. I guess clout can feel addicting, and I've felt it before. You feel sort of important. But in actuality, you're still broke lol. I think it's definitely a good approach to avoid celebrity types, it's better dancing with the common folk. There's just a lot that I now recognize in my scene who are all that "celebrity" status but they just literally dance BS and show highlights of BS in their social media, I don't want to hate on BS as I also do love it, but it just makes me wonder, for what, and why?

In some scenes, there are certain boundaries you don’t cross. If you break up with an Ex, you immediately cross their friends too. LOL. This doesn’t happen in every scene. You can still dance with people who associate with your Ex without getting the 3rd degree.

Yes. Apparently, my scene is just a whole conjuncture of drama storms. Not that short flings don't happen but my mini fling with one social dancer started befriending my ex, and she knew that they're my ex. My recent ex also happen to get befriended by my first ex, and they all now share insta highlights of them dancing in both their houses. It's hard to cross friends when the typical core of a dance scene (in any city) is often quite small. So there's certainly ALOT of opportunities for awkward moments. This is why I detest making friends or leveling up acquaintances I meet in the dance scene. Most of them are extrovert types, they derive energy from touch and feel, they become motivated because someone they met at a social happens to be a fitness "instructor" but in reality, is a mlm pyramid salesperson, so most are just not really my type, I derive energy most effectively from being an introvert for example. And I see that most becomes so ingrained in the community that it becomes their life and personality, especially in my BS scene. And I generally just find non-social dance people, to be more normal lol, afterall, the world is a bigger place. So now I typically just make friends outside of the scene and I choose and pick ones I want to introduce because they've shown enthusiasm, I think it's better to make allies and friends this way. I'll just say another thought, in some of my groups in the scenes, they call the scene "family" or dance family, just odd because I know for sure everyone has intentions beyond dancing and you normally wouldn't dance BS with a family member right? So it's just a whole odd thing at least for me. I guess since people need hugs, BS can actually provide that, even if they're intimate, and are just all platonically friends, to outsiders this may seem weird but at least it's not like kiz (as of yet).

 

[artimalid]

I don’t dance with the same person for more than 3 songs unless there is a special relationship between us. In such case people will observe it and not wait for the next dance.

Got an interesting exchange, I guess I have to make my asking for a dance "better" and more "clearer".

A follow had to stop me as she says, she has this no 3 dances rule. And I actually thought it was fair and I appreciate her for telling me that, however, since I've been trying to connect in ways other than dancing, I felt it was an interesting moment. I genuinely think it was fair, and I appreciate her telling me that. Although I enjoyed exploring dance with her and her dance, I wasn't particularly drawn to her.

@Chris_Yannick can probably help with this. What's your go to "line" for asking for a third dance? I typically just say, can we do three? Or decline me if you want, but is a third okay with you?

 

[artimalid]

In my opinion if someone says "oh im not a pro dancer" you are doing something wrong.

Typically someone will say "i am a beginner" before you start dancing, not after.

What do you mean? I typically get the first line "im not a pro dancer" because I think I looked just slightly decent dancing on the floor. I've come to meet people saying this, and I'm not saying this to brag but I think you're also probably right, maybe I should take it easy too.

 

[artimalid]

And being a leader gives males high status immediately (one reason some like to become salsa instructors). And so the young punk girl feels attracted to the leader of that bunch of punks equally as the conservative business woman feels attracted to the leader of the company. The principle is always the same. One can lament about it but not really blame women to follow their instincts. Men do the same.

Which gets me curious about the BS scene, it's a great dance as well as it being complex but also can be very simple and easy to do, I guess it's up to the eyes of the beholder. If they think the dude who dances BS is the best, then it's definitely on them and their perception of dancing and skillful dancing. I just can't help think that some men in my scene think they're all that just because they can do BS and this cool looking body roll.

Latin countries have a way different culture between genders. Women appreciate men, they like them, and so men grow up with the feeling to be welcome: that makes it easy to act naturally. My experience in northern europe is different: men are under suspicion and have often the feeling to not be welcomed by women, although they act in average shy compared to latino men.

I remember that well-known female cuban dancer giving a reggaeton course in a german small town and smilingly explaining reggaeton lyrics: it's about "sexo - mucho sexo!". You should have seen the faces of the audience blushing - they better don't smile too openly, otherwise they are suspicious to like sex, and that's not accepted for both genders.

Yes, I think you're on-point here. White men can be seen as opportunistic, perhaps POC can have more leeway but I think venues and social dance scene culture particulars play a role. If there's an African American or American Angolan, or Tibetan American man in a latin heavy social dance night (particularly South American) perceptions can be seen differently, such as the Tibetan man being assumed he can't dance. But I guess it just really boils down in intention again, if that's set aside and the man regardless of color genuinely shows they're actually just trying and actually just wanting to dance, I think it's good. But I think some specifics can be approached better, such as asking a follow for more than 1 or 2 dances because it may seem like something else is going on to both the follow and the audience or folk in the current night.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

A follow had to stop me as she says, she has this no 3 dances rule. And I actually thought it was fair and I appreciate her for telling me that, however, since I've been trying to connect in ways other than dancing, I felt it was an interesting moment. I genuinely think it was fair, and I appreciate her telling me that. Although I enjoyed exploring dance with her and her dance, I wasn't particularly drawn to her.

This sounds very odd to me. If someone is willing to dance 2 dances, then I don’t see how 3 would be a problem, but okay fine. I ditched ‘self-imposed’ rules years ago.

What's your go to "line" for asking for a third dance? I typically just say, can we do three? Or decline me if you want, but is a third okay with you?

With familiar people, it’s a non-issue. If I want 3 dances, then I just ask or we continue dancing.

But if you’re talking about asking strangers, then typically I don’t dance 3 in a row with any stranger.

 

[Bostontraitor]

Got an interesting exchange, I guess I have to make my asking for a dance "better" and more "clearer".

A follow had to stop me as she says, she has this no 3 dances rule. And I actually thought it was fair and I appreciate her for telling me that, however, since I've been trying to connect in ways other than dancing, I felt it was an interesting moment. I genuinely think it was fair, and I appreciate her telling me that. Although I enjoyed exploring dance with her and her dance, I wasn't particularly drawn to her.

@Chris_Yannick can probably help with this. What's your go to "line" for asking for a third dance? I typically just say, can we do three? Or decline me if you want, but is a third okay with you?

it really depends on your dance scene. How big is the community? In my city, I can dance with different people every night. My no more than 3 songs policy has three reasons: 1. Unless I have a relationship with her, I find it is hard to make the dance creative after 3 songs. It became a routine dance. 2. It’s a courtesy. There will be other leads waiting for the girl, if she’s popular. 3. I would like to dance with various people. I don’t stick with a group of dancers. It’s boring.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

How do you know when you're "really feeling it with someone"? Because as an average looking and decent dancing guy, there's been times where dances can be misleading. If we're talking about connection-personal intention & interest, it can get confusing.

First, I would drop the ‘dancing is just dancing‘ mindset. Yes there’s a reason why people say it, but in practice, I don’t like it. I prefer blurring the lines, not to create confusion but to reduce it. There‘s always mutual interest when you initiate multiple dances. It can cross over into personal-interest territory and guess what.. doesn’t have to lead anywhwere once the dance ends! People who believe this blurring of lines leads to trouble.… I just don’t understand this mentality. If you meet people of the opposite sex constantly, you will eventually be attracted to someone. You can express it in ways that doesn’t lead to ‘crossing lines’. Dancing multiple times is one of those instances where you can be safe that nothing else will happen except dancing. There is then no misleading since there is consent. Misleading happens when you try to take it outside of dancing and it doesn’t go as expected. But in the dance, there can be no misleading.

So I'm not sure what you mean. Is it just also acting in the end? We're all just acting more or less then, right?

I’ve never met such good actors in dancing and I’ve danced with actors before lol. I don’t consider the expression of dance-intimacy as acting. It’s real, but as soon as the dance ends - whether it’s 1 dance or 10 dances - nothing else will happen.

What do you also mean by intimate? Because I can dance with a follow but her husband is right around the corner, I wouldn't do any "intimate" moves

IMO, these are mental blocks that shouldn’t affect the dancing, but somehow still does.
These are questions only you and your partner of the moment can answer. I’ve danced with girls who have bf/husbands but dance extremely sensual with everyone. That’s just how they dance. What would you do if you didn’t know her partner was standing right in front of you? Would you even think twice about dancing more intimiately? Of course not. You would just do what comes naturally in the moment without any outside mental interference, which IMO, leads to the best dancing.

 

[artimalid]

This sounds very odd to me. If someone is willing to dance 2 dances, then I don’t see how 3 would be a problem, but okay fine. I ditched ‘self-imposed’ rules years ago.

With familiar people, it’s a non-issue. If I want 3 dances, then I just ask or we continue dancing.

But if you’re talking about asking strangers, then typically I don’t dance 3 in a row with any stranger.

I do get what you mean, & I believe people should be doing this more often, I think the issue with mine comes from the atmosphere in my venues. I've only experienced this in the states, either I have to be super assertive or do a very good dance with them or they'll just pass. I'm a decent lead and follow, and it may also be my mindset as I do sometimes get bored or feel a lack of new moves dancing with a follow more than 3 times, it's just my experience. And as well as the atmosphere of my community, I think mine has more of an exclusive feel to it that it'll generally be better if you've been frequenting the venue or social nights & so follows are more lax on taking more than 3 dances because you're now also an aquaintance.

Oops, yeah, I didn't read your next line. Yes, I think that's what I've been trying to say, I love travelling and hitting up different spots, I've experienced snobs, scared follows, usually dancing w their mini celeb helps people open up but dancing more than 2 with a stranger is usually not received well.

 

[artimalid]

First, I would drop the ‘dancing is just dancing‘ mindset. Yes there’s a reason why people say it, but in practice, I don’t like it. I prefer blurring the lines, not to create confusion but to reduce it. There‘s always mutual interest when you initiate multiple dances. It can cross over into personal-interest territory and guess what.. doesn’t have to lead anywhwere once the dance ends! People who believe this blurring of lines leads to trouble.… I just don’t understand this mentality. If you meet people of the opposite sex constantly, you will eventually be attracted to someone. You can express it in ways that doesn’t lead to ‘crossing lines’. Dancing multiple times is one of those instances where you can be safe that nothing else will happen except dancing. There is then no misleading since there is consent. Misleading happens when you try to take it outside of dancing and it doesn’t go as expected. But in the dance, there can be no misleading.

My gripe here is that the "personal-interest territory" can be perceived & even felt (for both parties, & crowd) as flirting. I guess it's also my personal experience, my ex hated it when I danced well with a random follow, she thought it was me being flirtatious. And I guess now I can change that into a more of a, interpret or just dance with me sort of approach, of course, it doesn't have to be flirty, in technical sense, you don't even need to add hair combs or connect through eye to eye. But being "flirtatious" has its advantages, I mean the songs are about romance... Or perhaps playful is the right word? I just want to be more classy, I can't help think how some leads in my community are outright grinding on our lead instructor and her co-instructor & husband happens to be watching them. But hey, if they like that or if she's fine with that, more power to them.

Definitely I think when the lead is experienced and skilled, they can control the moves or partner dancing to shape it like it's not overtly flirtatious. I mean, it can just be part of the act, how a coach of mine would forehead to forehead, almost kissing, this one follow while her boyfriend is nearby. I think the problem here is that people do not think it's okay to be attracted to someone even if you're already taken or married, but it can often get confusing when it comes to dancing. I mean, we're not even talking about urban kizomba... And I'll reference my scene again, there's definitely a lot of men who are quite confused in these approaches, especially in my BS scene. Sometimes though, my BS nights would have this nightclub atmosphere, so people would assume it's a date night or singles night out plus BS dancing. What do you think about this then?

I’ve never met such good actors in dancing and I’ve danced with actors before lol. I don’t consider the expression of dance-intimacy as acting. It’s real, but as soon as the dance ends - whether it’s 1 dance or 10 dances - nothing else will happen.

I think it can just be quite tricky. I've danced with follows who showed signs of super sensual intimate moves, maybe they're used to it and are primarily BS dancers? Caressing my neck, touching my cheek, forehead to forehead, only for me to end up reading it wrong. They want nothing to do with me after the dance lol which I'm fine with, I'm just any other average looking person though it used to confuse me when I was green. I'm not disagreeing with you completely, it's just some women are very good actresses. And most are just there to just do that. I think at least in non social dance night clubs, there's an assumption in the air that we're actually here to look for partners.

IMO, these are mental blocks that shouldn’t affect the dancing, but somehow still does.
These are questions only you and your partner of the moment can answer. I’ve danced with girls who have bf/husbands but dance extremely sensual with everyone. That’s just how they dance. What would you do if you didn’t know her partner was standing right in front of you? Would you even think twice about dancing more intimiately? Of course not. You would just do what comes naturally in the moment without any outside mental interference, which IMO, leads to the best dancing.

So the mindset is feeling it, genuineness. I think this also is due to guys in my scene just doing moves because it looks sexy or sexual and cool. I've stopped doing that hold their hips while I wiggle and squat infront of her move, I think waists/hip holds are okay but in my opinion, it can just be as cringey as the squat move. These shouldn't be issues but hey I guess if leads start touching faces, caressing them, it can now just be normalized. I do at some times, have my follow, female friends complain to me. So then it just takes skill or experience in reading the follow, if she's smiling after you did a body roll, she's preferring to stay close. Again, interpretations can never be 100%, like how the BS follows in my scene think that constant body rolls and grinding body rolls are the norm. It takes a lot of skill to read the follow it's especially harder to do it in just 2-3 minutes, plus when both of you are already sweaty and a bit dehydrated. Side note I think I feel safer when non salsa romantica plays, especially Cuban or Columbian, then it just becomes an energetic playful dance & helps when the songs are more about life and not romance or seeing a girl.

 

[Offbeat]

First, I would drop the ‘dancing is just dancing‘ mindset. Yes there’s a reason why people say it, but in practice, I don’t like it. I prefer blurring the lines, not to create confusion but to reduce it. There‘s always mutual interest when you initiate multiple dances. It can cross over into personal-interest territory and guess what.. doesn’t have to lead anywhwere once the dance ends! People who believe this blurring of lines leads to trouble.… I just don’t understand this mentality. If you meet people of the opposite sex constantly, you will eventually be attracted to someone. You can express it in ways that doesn’t lead to ‘crossing lines’. Dancing multiple times is one of those instances where you can be safe that nothing else will happen except dancing. There is then no misleading since there is consent. Misleading happens when you try to take it outside of dancing and it doesn’t go as expected. But in the dance, there can be no misleading.

Doesn’t work that way. A lot of dependency on who you dancing with and where. Other thing you can not stop is other person’s perception. You might say you can’t be bothered by what someone you dance with thinks. But their perception or rather misperception can impact your social dancing life and more.

Acting upon attraction is an art. Some people can be clumsy, some withdrawn, some arrogant/rude, some have finesse, it is all over the spectrum. With or without dancing. Every environment is different. Person needs common sense. Acting upon an attraction at a work/office settings has different parameters than in dancing scene which is different than if you were at a party, club, or a school. What might be acceptable in one setting may not be in a different one. Hence blurring of lines has more potential to create problems. It can happen without you having any intention. With intention it is more fraught. Common sense is your best friend.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

My gripe here is that the "personal-interest territory" can be perceived & even felt (for both parties, & crowd) as flirting.

We’ll have to further define flirting. I see flirting all the time. I experience it all the time. It’s a normal part of dancing in my neck of the woods. Happens with strangers, dance acquaintances and even friends.

I guess it's also my personal experience, my ex hated it when I danced well with a random follow, she thought it was me being flirtatious.

This experience would probably put many people off from the idea of being friendly with other dance partners, but IMO, it’s just wrong on so many levels.

And I'll reference my scene again, there's definitely a lot of men who are quite confused in these approaches, especially in my BS scene. Sometimes though, my BS nights would have this nightclub atmosphere, so people would assume it's a date night or singles night out plus BS dancing. What do you think about this then?

The experienced BS crowd has become desensitized to it, but for those new entering the scene, it can be very confusing, much more than Salsa.

Over here, BS is used more to pickup. Also, when there’s a BS room and a Salsa room and people want to chill out somewhere or are super horny, they go to the BS room. There’s no way to sugar coat it. That’s what happens.

Also, I see more couples dancing with each other in the BS room. Also, bad dancers go to the BS room when they can’t do anything else. There are lots of things that would indicate that the BS room is mainly a front for singles to date around.

Last night at our monthly Salsa party, my friend and her ex-husband were both in atttendance. They are on good terms. At one point my friend says to me “my ex is in the Bachata room. He needs it”. What she meant was that he needed to get validation by grinding on strangers in the BS room. And she was okay with it.

I think it can just be quite tricky. I've danced with follows who showed signs of super sensual intimate moves, maybe they're used to it and are primarily BS dancers? Caressing my neck, touching my cheek, forehead to forehead, only for me to end up reading it wrong. They want nothing to do with me after the dance lol which I'm fine with, I'm just any other average looking person though it used to confuse me when I was green. I'm not disagreeing with you completely, it's just some women are very good actresses. And most are just there to just do that. I think at least in non social dance night clubs, there's an assumption in the air that we're actually here to look for partners

I feel the difference. Don’t ask me how lol. When there’s a real connection, I just know it. Something like face-to-face touching is extremely intimate and I doubt someone would do that with a person they consider disgusting and wanted nothing to do with them off the dance floor.

So the mindset is feeling it, genuineness. I think this also is due to guys in my scene just doing moves because it looks sexy or sexual and cool. I've stopped doing that hold their hips while I wiggle and squat infront of her move, I think waists/hip holds are okay but in my opinion, it can just be as cringey as the squat move. These shouldn't be issues but hey I guess if leads start touching faces, caressing them, it can now just be normalized. I do at some times, have my follow, female friends complain to me. So then it just takes skill or experience in reading the follow, if she's smiling after you did a body roll, she's preferring to stay close. Again, interpretations can never be 100%, like how the BS follows in my scene think that constant body rolls and grinding body rolls are the norm. It takes a lot of skill to read the follow it's especially harder to do it in just 2-3 minutes, plus when both of you are already sweaty and a bit dehydrated. Side note I think I feel safer when non salsa romantica plays, especially Cuban or Columbian, then it just becomes an energetic playful dance & helps when the songs are more about life and not romance or seeing a girl.

This is more in the realm of dance exploration. I was lucky that people here are open to new experiences and aren’t shy about getting physically close. So that allowed me to explore my own sensuality. When you’re in a scene where people are always hesitant about saying the wrong things, touching others and being flirtatious, then you aren’t free to explore and that leads to confusion and bad dance connections.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Doesn’t work that way. A lot of dependency on who you dancing with and where. Other thing you can not stop is other person’s perception. You might say you can’t be bothered by what someone you dance with thinks. But their perception or rather misperception can impact your social dancing life and more

If we’re talking about minimizing the confusion, then blurring the lines can work. You don’t know either way what the other person is thinking (and even if you ask directly, how many people will actually be honest/genuine?). If there is a lot of dance chemistry, one way to enhance it is to dance like they are your partner in real-life. Should everyone do this? Of course not. In some scenes it’s risky. You have to know when to apply it and when to back off.

But if there is mutual connection and chemistry, it’s worth exploring without blocking the sensations.

It doesn’t mean caressing the face of everyone you dance with. Even smiling at someone a certain way can be done in a flirtatious or fun way. Some people will say “That behavior is creepy”. Hey, I also find certain behavior creepy but it depends how you come across. Are you creepy or fun/flirtatious? If you can’t determine the difference, then you gotta learn it.

If someone wants to blackball you for doing something pretty harmless like smiling flirtatiously, it’s on them. But I’ve never come across it even once.

On the flipside, guarding myself and being inhibited in the way I express myself has always led to people assuming the wrong things about me… I would get things like “you seem shy… do you not like hugging? why don’t you ask me to dance more than once?”

Being “safe” has not led to any special dance connections. Ever. And has been such a miscommunicator compared to when I was overly expressive.

With some people I dance with (even friends) I always carry that little bit of tension between us. It adds to the dance. As a result, they like dancing with me more and it doesn’t cause any confusion.

Common sense is your best friend.

In the ’sense’ of do what most people find ‘common’? I wonder why so many people have this problem of being confused about others’ intentions if they are seemingly always following common sense. The ability to have great dances is definitely not something I’d label as ’common’. The average social dancer will never experience great dancing hence why they quit.

 

[Offbeat]

If we’re talking about minimizing the confusion, then blurring the lines can work. You don’t know either way what the other person is thinking (and even if you ask directly, how many people will actually be honest/genuine?). If there is a lot of dance chemistry, one way to enhance it is to dance like they are your partner in real-life. Should everyone do this? Of course not. In some scenes it’s risky. You have to know when to apply it and when to back off.

But if there is mutual connection and chemistry, it’s worth exploring without blocking the sensations.

It doesn’t mean caressing the face of everyone you dance with. Even smiling at someone a certain way can be done in a flirtatious or fun way. Some people will say “That behavior is creepy”. Hey, I also find certain behavior creepy but it depends how you come across. Are you creepy or fun/flirtatious? If you can’t determine the difference, then you gotta learn it.

If someone wants to blackball you for doing something pretty harmless like smiling flirtatiously, it’s on them. But I’ve never come across it even once.

On the flipside, guarding myself and being inhibited in the way I express myself has always led to people assuming the wrong things about me… I would get things like “you seem shy… do you not like hugging? why don’t you ask me to dance more than once?”

Being “safe” has not led to any special dance connections. Ever. And has been such a miscommunicator compared to when I was overly expressive.

With some people I dance with (even friends) I always carry that little bit of tension between us. It adds to the dance. As a result, they like dancing with me more and it doesn’t cause any confusion.

I think you and OP are talking different things. And coming at it from different angles.

The best parallel example I can give is to being funny or comic. If you are not natural at it or at home being funny or clowning, but instead force it, that comes across poorly at best and cringy at worst.

For example there is this one dude. He is naturally funny when dancing. He is making all sorts of faces and little funny stuff. His dancing skills are okay nothing great. Followers love dancing with him. He makes them laugh. You can see they are enjoying when dancing with him. He is fairly popular in EU circuit. There is no way I can attempt to do anything like that. If I try to make a funny face, I am sure it will come across as weird. Not matching my personality.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

I think you and OP are talking different things. And coming at it from different angles.

The best parallel example I can give is to being funny or comic. If you are not natural at it or at home being funny or clowning, but instead force it, that comes across poorly at best and cringy at worst.

For example there is this one dude. He is naturally funny when dancing. He is making all sorts of faces and little funny stuff. His dancing skills are okay nothing great. Followers love dancing with him. He makes them laugh. You can see they are enjoying when dancing with him. He is fairly popular in EU circuit. There is no way I can attempt to do anything like that. If I try to make a funny face, I am sure it will come across as weird. Not matching my personality.

The behavior should match the intention. If I want to be flirty with a particular person, I will dance flirty. If I want to make someone laugh, I usually know what to do to make it happen. If I don’t like the song, I express that too. It is easy to detect in my body language. Coming across as genuine is really the best way to eliminate potential confusion as to whether someone likes dancing with you or not. Maybe you don’t like dancing with them! That should also be apparent. For the record, there are very few people I dislike dancing with. Some people take longer to warm up to or they to you. If I don’t want to bother with this (and sometimes I don’t), then I don’t ask them to dance and we never become great dance partners.

 

[artimalid]

We’ll have to further define flirting. I see flirting all the time. I experience it all the time. It’s a normal part of dancing in my neck of the woods. Happens with strangers, dance acquaintances and even friends.

This experience would probably put many people off from the idea of being friendly with other dance partners, but IMO, it’s just wrong on so many levels.

This is where I'm trying to understand. People (including my ex) have told me, "isn't that sort of, or basically just like cheating??". But of course, you can also say that actors "pretend" and even kiss on movies with their co stars who are not their partners. But usually, those are ironed out with contracts as it's their actual job. I can understand more, if it's a job of the person, if the salsera actually earns income from it then she's definitely a performer but even then, at that level, I believe people can now distinguish and control certain types of expressions to not deem it too flirty. In BS scene, a lot of lines get blurred because sensual moves are just sensual, close and flirty.

So then, is it cheating? What do you mean by seeing it wrong but saying it's a normal part of dancing?

The experienced BS crowd has become desensitized to it, but for those new entering the scene, it can be very confusing, much more than Salsa.

Over here, BS is used more to pickup. Also, when there’s a BS room and a Salsa room and people want to chill out somewhere or are super horny, they go to the BS room. There’s no way to sugar coat it. That’s what happens.

Also, I see more couples dancing with each other in the BS room. Also, bad dancers go to the BS room when they can’t do anything else. There are lots of things that would indicate that the BS room is mainly a front for singles to date around.

I think that the desensitization is related to the "feel" or culture of a social dance night. When I tried to avoid the hug-type, body roll-fest, this follow, she didn't like it, I tried to add a few pretzels and try to interpret the quicker tempo of the music, she frowned and gave me an eye stink and looked uninterested and this is when I went to a 90% BS night.

Do you ever feel depressed when you meet particular social dancers or plain BS dancers? Because from my experience, most of the women (and men) I've met and gotten to know are at this stage of life and have to do with getting dumped, being in the middle or after divorces, or discovering themselves. Of course, these issues are not unique to the BS scene or social dance scene as a whole. I just find it more frequent, and it makes me sad because all they know and probably just like to do are body rolls. Just that I hope I could maybe help the single mother or dad who only recently learned how to body roll because she or he was taught that way. One didn't really understand until we had a chance to talk, yes, some of those intimate close positions, caresses on the cheek and chin, persistent hip gripping, and extremely close legs in between positions are done with intent... But again, the "culture" of the crowd or event is also a factor and hey, some women actually don't mind and like it. It's just that if you compare a BS scene to the small but emerging Kiz scene, the Kiz people seemed to be less confused & know what they're getting into. What do you think?

My only other questions here is that, why is it quite easy to spot BS dancers who are trying out salsa and other dances, it's as if their bachata march is so engrained, it's hard for them to adjust.

I feel the difference. Don’t ask me how lol. When there’s a real connection, I just know it. Something like face-to-face touching is extremely intimate and I doubt someone would do that with a person they consider disgusting and wanted nothing to do with them off the dance floor.

Think in all communities, follow or female skill disparity is big. You can definitely defend those face caresses, most, if not all women just let them happen and then trend continues and it becomes a norm. I wonder why this is the case, I've had new follows complain about certain things, yes, they can disconnect and still dance. I'd say following is easier than leading, perhaps following seems just too easy that most think it's just automatic and stop learning beyond.

I was lucky that people here are open to new experiences and aren’t shy about getting physically close. So that allowed me to explore my own sensuality. When you’re in a scene where people are always hesitant about saying the wrong things, touching others and being flirtatious, then you aren’t free to explore and that leads to confusion and bad dance connections.

Makes much more sense, thanks for clarifying. So dancing is definitely exploration. What do you mean by sensuality? A lot of people have different meanings for that word?

If a follow is also hesitant to explore, but she has adequate technical skills, would you say she's inexperienced or does it also fall on the lead?