Training for the World Salsa Summit 2019

[Smejmoon]

"Contestants are allowed a maximum of 8 Bars/32 Beats/4 Counts of 8 are allowed for continuous turns. More than this will result in a penalty of 10% off the final score. "

I like this rule There must be a reason why they decided to put it in.

 

[SoFloW]

When I came out and as I performed it was DEAD SILENT, with a lot of people looking away... I wasn't prepared for that

I knew that was going to happen, and it's not because of the cliques as you alluded. That's why I said it took balls. But if you're so delusional that you were expecting a standing ovation perhaps it wasn't so courageous. And yet it is courageous of you to describe the audience's reaction, although I'm sure anyone interested was listening if you got applause in the end anyways.

My style is not for everyone and I understand that. I'm not going to change it just because I wasn't accepted in that competition.

If for you dancing salsa is like singing in the shower that's fine. But if you care even a little about other's perception (that was rhetorical, there's no way that you don't) and especially if your aim is to have a successful studio, you may want to reconsider that.

In your segment because the music was mostly fast, your movements were faster than what you've typically demonstrated in your solo videos, so they took on a little more aggressive/masculine appearance which is a good thing. But overall still just plain weird, you being tall and skinny makes this style look even more weird.

Your partner dancing is much better in the conventional way. I guess there's an imposed limit to how much convulsions a lead can have and still control the follow effectively. Your movements are much more sharp/decisive/manly and in difference to other dancers you appear very relaxed which can be a good thing. But in Frankie fashion can be pushed an extreme giving a tired/weak/apathetic impression. I think you're a talented dancer, just pushing in the wrong direction. Frankie's dancing just sucks now, you're emulating a jaded dancer at the least, if not someone with psychological issues.

 

[Hervin]

You titled your video "First Place," that's not cool. I know you meant it as a joke but, I feel it's dishonest and unfair to the person who will end up winning. Small potatoes and nit-picking, I know, but hey, you posted it on here and I certainly would not have seen it if you hadn't posted it on this forum, so it's fair game for commentary.

Before I say anything, you're a lot better than I am and I wouldn't compete solo, so had to get that out of the way.

Anyway, you have talent because imitating Frankie is not easy at all. The problem with borrowing his style and even wardrobe, is we're comparing you to him, and that's tough for anyone. If we want 100% Frankie, then we'd rather just watch Frankie. Unless you grow to do a better version of him. Whereas if you had different supplementary styles, that would be helpful, because anyone who does anything remotely like Frankie is already unusual, and there would be no direct comparison to you except bits and pieces.

You're unusual because you appear more comfortable, fluid and balanced dancing slow than fast, which is usually the opposite in most other dancers. I wonder if you'll incorporate other styles, I think you could be on to something if you do.

You repeated moves several times in the performance, that's not usually a good idea. You also had moves that are usually meant for big 'drops' that seemed out of place musically in your piece.

But otherwise, I think you'll look back on this first time and see how you can modify your game plan. Dance is humbling that way, but hopefully you keep going. Like I said you're a talented guy so it'll be cool to see how things change now.

Elanimal, I appreciate your feedback, and though meant as a joke, I see your point of view and agreed with it, so I removed it... In any case, I don't mean to undermine the winner.

Though I agree with your comments about if you wanted 100% Frankie, you will go see him...

I also don't think a lot of people give consideration to how a styles are born, to how an artist develops his own "voice" if you will.

What you're seeing now is someone who has taken 9 years studying Frankie from a distance as well as participating in his classes on occasions.

Studying his technique, and dance philosophy...

I'm not trying to imitate him...

I'm using the principles I have learned from him to dance. Of course, it will have his resemblance. He is my teacher.

What about Adolfo Indacochea looking exactly like a younger version of Eddie...

What about Ruben Blades completely copying Cheo Feliciano in his earlier songs...

Or Bruno Mars imitating Michael Jackson, and Michael Jackson imitating James Brown.

All those artists are now seen as having their own voice now...

But you can still see their inspirations, or their teachers...

Style in my opinion is not a matter of creating something completely new... Rather, breaking away from something...

In other words, Michael Jackson had to imitate James Brown to end up being Michael Jackson... I don't think he couldn't have done it other wise...

I like the feedback... So thank you for taking the time and writing. You'll definitely see more of me

 

[Hervin]

I knew that was going to happen, and it's not because of the cliques as you alluded. That's why I said it took balls. But if you're so delusional that you were expecting a standing ovation perhaps it wasn't so courageous. And yet it is courageous of you to describe the audience's reaction, although I'm sure anyone interested was listening if you got applause in the end anyways.

If for you dancing salsa is like singing in the shower that's fine. But if you care even a little about other's perception (that was rhetorical, there's no way that you don't) and especially if your aim is to have a successful studio, you may want to reconsider that.

In your segment because the music was mostly fast, your movements were faster than what you've typically demonstrated in your solo videos, so they took on a little more aggressive/masculine appearance which is a good thing. But overall still just plain weird, you being tall and skinny makes this style look even more weird.

Your partner dancing is much better in the conventional way. I guess there's an imposed limit to how much convulsions a lead can have and still control the follow effectively. Your movements are much more sharp/decisive/manly and in difference to other dancers you appear very relaxed which can be a good thing. But in Frankie fashion can be pushed an extreme giving a tired/weak/apathetic impression. I think you're a talented dancer, just pushing in the wrong direction. Frankie's dancing just sucks now, you're emulating a jaded dancer.

Hey man, thank you for taking the time to write this! I'm about to teach a class, but I'll reply later!

 

[Smejmoon]

What about Adolfo Indacochea looking exactly like a younger version of Eddie...

Makes it incredibly boring; especially with his productivity setting up the same shows all the time with different costumes. I don't think one should step onto stage, if they don't have something to say.

Ruben Blades, Cheo Feliciano, Michael Jackson, and James Brown had their own things to say.

In this case if it's performers for other performers it's great. Italians like these parties too.

 

[Hervin]

I knew that was going to happen, and it's not because of the cliques as you alluded. That's why I said it took balls. But if you're so delusional that you were expecting a standing ovation perhaps it wasn't so courageous. And yet it is courageous of you to describe the audience's reaction, although I'm sure anyone interested was listening if you got applause in the end anyways.

From dead silence to standing ovation there is a big gap. I had done the choreography in front of a neutral crowd and the audience showed support throughout. What shook me was that I was met with indifference. Lesson learned.

If for you dancing salsa is like singing in the shower that's fine. But if you care even a little about other's perception (that was rhetorical, there's no way that you don't) and especially if your aim is to have a successful studio, you may want to reconsider that.

What does my style have anything to do with running a successful dance studio? Do you own a dance studio? Where is this advice coming from?

I have seen terrible dancers with really successful dance studios...

Also, you're making it seem like if no one likes my dance, or my style is badly received every time.

I've received a lot of positive comments... Perhaps you don't like it and that's ok... No offense taken or hard feelings.

In your segment because the music was mostly fast, your movements were faster than what you've typically demonstrated in your solo videos, so they took on a little more aggressive/masculine appearance which is a good thing. But overall still just plain weird, you being tall and skinny makes this style look even more weird.

You're entitled to your own opinion and I respect that. If that's what you think of my dance, awesome.

Your partner dancing is much better in the conventional way. I guess there's an imposed limit to how much convulsions a lead can have and still control the follow effectively. Your movements are much more sharp/decisive/manly and in difference to other dancers you appear very relaxed which can be a good thing. But in Frankie fashion can be pushed an extreme giving a tired/weak/apathetic impression. I think you're a talented dancer, just pushing in the wrong direction. Frankie's dancing just sucks now, you're emulating a jaded dancer at the least, if not someone with psychological issues.

Thank you for the compliment.

As far as Frankie... I have nothing but respect for him. I've gotten the chance to have many conversations with him over the years. He's an interesting guy with a really deep philosophy. A master of his craft. Not everyone gets it, and I'm guessing that to outsiders who have never had a chance to speak to him, he can be misjudged... He's an extremely humble person with nothing but laser focus discipline for training.

He's the only person I can count in to get better with the years... Other dancers seem to hit a plateau and stay there...

I appreciate the feedback, and enjoy the conversation. If nothing else, we can agree to disagree...

 

[Hervin]

Makes it incredibly boring; especially with his productivity setting up the same shows all the time with different costumes. I don't think one should step onto stage, if they don't have something to say.

The stage can be occupied by anyone unfortunately... As long as people keep supporting that, he doesn't have a reason to change what's been working for him. Not my style, but I can't hate.

I brought up Adolfo because he's an exact copy of Eddie, and no one seems to mind, but when it comes to dancing using Frankie's principles, it becomes taboo...

In this case if it's performers for other performers it's great. Italians like these parties too.

Didn't get this.

 

[Offbeat]

Sadly I didn't even make it through the first round...

Yes, that is tough! I wasn't expecting them to let you make to the final round. Your choreography and presentation was closest to street style without fanfare of what is expected in these kinds of competition routines. I don't think you should feel discourage. It is better to carve out your own path, irrespective of what mainstream judges may think. I am sure if FM himself had participated and no one knew who he is, he wouldn't have stood a chance either.

I really believe in a salsa solo dancing, they shouldn't allow some of the elements which absolutely don't belong in the salsa dancing genre.

I honestly didn't do my best, as I felt really intimidated and alienated by the "crowd". It wasn't a neutral crowd of spectators. It was a crowd made up of solely other teams and competitors. So, when someone with a big team came up they had a group of 20 people (their teammates) cheering for them....

When I came out and as I performed it was DEAD SILENT, with a lot of people looking away... I wasn't prepared for that, so I felt awkward, and it threw me off my game (You can see in my choreography that I tumbled and lost balance like 2 or 3 times).

I am guessing this is first time you were on a big stage. It is natural to feel intimidated and minor/major mistakes do happen. The more you perform, the better things will get.

P.S. - wrote this very soon after your post but it wouldn't let me post without 7000 seconds timeout

 

[Hervin]

Yes, that is tough! I wasn't expecting them to let you make to the final round. Your choreography and presentation was closest to street style without fanfare of what is expected in these kinds of competition routines. I don't think you should feel discourage. It is better to carve out your own path, irrespective of what mainstream judges may think. I am sure if FM himself had participated and no one knew who he is, he wouldn't have stood a chance either.

I really believe in a salsa solo dancing, they shouldn't allow some of the elements which absolutely don't belong in the salsa dancing genre.



I am guessing this is first time you were on a big stage. It is natural to feel intimidated and minor/major mistakes do happen. The more you perform, the better things will get.

P.S. - wrote this very soon after your post but it wouldn't let me post without 7000 seconds timeout

Yes I knew that coming into it as well... I wasn't expecting to go far, but not cut outright in the first round. I'm aware my style is not suited for this kind of competitions, but that wasn't going to stop me from trying.

If you watch the performers who made it through the second round, all had a very similar style and costume. They all had a lot of acrobatic moves... and though very energetic performances, I feel like the choreographies lacked purpose.

I feel like it was movement for the sake of looking cool, with not much depth to it... Anyway, that's my opinion... Which clearly doesn't win competitions lol.

I've performed many times and for really big crowds, but I've only done 1 other competition... I'm used to getting some support from the crowd, not being shown indifference. In any case, like you said... It can only get better with more practice.

Thank you for your words! I really appreciate the support!

 

[Offbeat]

If you watch the performers who made it through the second round, all had a very similar style and costume. They all had a lot of acrobatic moves... and though very energetic performances, I feel like the choreographies lacked purpose.

I agree with you and wrote pretty much the same in one of the posts. I didn't feel their choreography was reflecting the music they had chosen.

These days you can pretty much predict what the winning performance would look like.

Thank you for your words! I really appreciate the support!

Keep doing what you love and how you love to do it. Winning competition is nice but not winning or advancing doesn't invalidate your style/talent/skills.

Sooner or later if you keep at it you will get more recognition. Sometimes people don't necessarily have to like your style to acknowledge that you are a very good dancer. Just focus on becoming a great dancer and keep nurturing that talent you have. It is not easy to do what you are able to do. You probably already know where you got to clean up your movements, more than any of us can say.

 

[Hervin]

I agree with you and wrote pretty much the same in one of the posts. I didn't feel their choreography was reflecting the music they had chosen.

These days you can pretty much predict what the winning performance would look like.

My reason for going and performing was to show something other than the "formula." I know it'll take many years, maybe a lifetime to do... I didn't expect to change it in one performance lol.

Keep doing what you love and how you love to do it. Winning competition is nice but not winning it advancing doesn't invalidate your style.

Sooner or later if you keep at it you will get more recognition. Sometimes people don't necessarily have to like your style to acknowledge that you are a very good dancer. Just focus on becoming a great dancer and keep nurturing that talent you have. It is not easy to do what you are able to do.

Agreed. In the words of Rick Rubin (The biggest record producer in the 90s...), "The best art divides the audience: Half love it and half hate it."

So the fact that a lot of people show negativity towards this style, motivates me even more to find my audience.

You'll be seeing more of me in the future!

Take care, thank you again for writing!

 

[Smejmoon]

Didn't get this.

There are a lot of events where salsa sportsmen perform for salsa sportsmen in Italy.

 

[SoFloW]

I had done the choreography in front of a neutral crowd and the audience showed support throughout.

Some people are not qualified to offer a good critique. More importantly people in general are reluctant to give honest negative criticism to someone's face, when they know it will hurt the person's feelings, especially when ultimately they wish to support and not discourage. They will more easily say negative things behind their back. Even for me it was difficult to write these things because I don't like hurting good people's feelings. And you come across as a good and positive person with potentially a lot to offer the community. What tipped the scales for me is that someone needed to tell it to you straight up. Not because I'm a hater.
The members here on Salsa Forums are not being direct with you. They understand your commitment and are reluctant to discourage you, so they drop little hints about cloning and copying, when that's not really the issue. Or don't comment at all. Yet in this forum they've torn people's dancing apart who are way better than you. Why don't you ask everyone for their honest brutal criticism and see what happens? After all when you competed that's what you were supposedly doing. But you didn't like the answer and are in denial.

What does my style have anything to do with running a successful dance studio? Do you own a dance studio? Where is this advice coming from?

I have some understanding of how running a salsa dance studio works. I'm a businessman, former instructor in another field which requires physical dexterity, was close to a salsa dance studio owner/dance instructor so I had access to some insider stuff and have an idea of their mentality, and recently went through the salsa instruction machine myself. It's all amusing to me now, private lessons, group lessons, workshops.. for me now it's just dance, observe, take what I like and incorporate, practice, dance. No worries and no need to pay anyone.
If I were asked how to achieve it most efficiently through instruction from the student's perspective I'd say:
1. Find an instructor who captures your attention and inspires you with a style you can relate to. Strike one.
2. Clear and varied shines/footwork are essential. Your movements are distracting are not conducive to clear understanding. Strike two.

Never thought of Adolfo as a copy of ET. I do enjoy watching Adolfo more than ET, he's good but not a social dancer that inspires me.

 

[Hervin]

Some people are not qualified to offer a good critique. More importantly people in general are reluctant to give honest negative criticism to someone's face, when they know it will hurt the person's feelings, especially when ultimately they wish to support and not discourage. They will more easily say negative things behind their back. Even for me it was difficult to write these things because I don't like hurting good people's feelings. And you come across as a good and positive person with potentially a lot to offer the community. What tipped the scales for me is that someone needed to tell it to you straight up. Not because I'm a hater.
The members here on Salsa Forums are not being direct with you. They understand your commitment and are reluctant to discourage you, so they drop little hints about cloning and copying, when that's not really the issue. Or don't comment at all. Yet in this forum they've torn people's dancing apart who are way better than you. Why don't you ask everyone for their honest brutal criticism and see what happens? After all when you competed that's what you were supposedly doing. But you didn't like the answer and are in denial.
I have some understanding of how running a salsa dance studio works. I'm a businessman, former instructor in another field which requires physical dexterity, was close to a salsa dance studio owner/dance instructor so I had access to some insider stuff and have an idea of their mentality, and recently went through the salsa instruction machine myself. It's all amusing to me now, private lessons, group lessons, workshops.. for me now it's just dance, observe, take what I like and incorporate, practice, dance. No worries and no need to pay anyone.
If I were asked how to achieve it most efficiently through instruction from the student's perspective I'd say:
1. Find an instructor who captures your attention and inspires you with a style you can relate to. Strike one.
2. Clear and varied shines/footwork are essential. Your movements are distracting are not conducive to clear understanding. Strike two.

Never thought of Adolfo as a copy of ET. I do enjoy watching Adolfo more than ET, he's good but not a social dancer that inspires me.

Hey man, thank you for responding.

If you don’t know who Rick Rubin is, look him up. He said this: “the best art devides the crowd: half hate it, half love it.”

You seem to be on the former.

No need to take advice, from that side of the crowd. I don’t mind honest criticism, but I take it from the right sources.

Unless you can show me you’re an excellent dancer, and you run a successful dance studio, then you’re in no position to guess what it takes.

Good luck convincing someone else!

 

[elanimal]

So thank you for taking the time and writing. You'll definitely see more of me

It's awesome you keep such a positive attitude. Irrespective of what @salsero.dance says, that's an extremely important trait to becoming a great dancer, running a studio, or just being good at life, jaja. We could all certainly use more of it.

The members here on Salsa Forums are not being direct with you.

You have some strange ax to grind with this guy or something. Try not to speak for all of us, because I was as honest as I need to be. I shared what I liked objectively and disliked subjectively.

If you don't recognize this guy's talent, it's because you have never performed solo or at least in a men's shines group (I have), or have never tried some of Frankie's exercises in front of a mirror to realize how s*** you look (I have). The degree of difficulty of all Frankie's stuff is off the charts, he does things few in the salsa world can do. I've also been to a handful of his classes, and when he's on his 'explaining' game there are few out there who can really break down body movement as well as he does.

To reiterate, I think you're a talented guy Hervin. You're not at Frankie level, but who is. It's a process. You already know your style may be hard to accept. The path you chose is just harder. Good luck.

 

[Offbeat]

It's awesome you keep such a positive attitude. Irrespective of what @salsero.dance says, that's an extremely important trait to becoming a great dancer, running a studio, or just being good at life, jaja. We could all certainly use more of it.


You have some strange ax to grind with this guy or something. Try not to speak for all of us, because I was as honest as I need to be. I shared what I liked objectively and disliked subjectively.

If you don't recognize this guy's talent, it's because you have never performed solo or at least in a men's shines group (I have), or have never tried some of Frankie's exercises in front of a mirror to realize how s*** you look (I have). The degree of difficulty of all Frankie's stuff is off the charts, he does things few in the salsa world can do. I've also been to a handful of his classes, and when he's on his 'explaining' game there are few out there who can really break down body movement as well as he does.

To reiterate, I think you're a talented guy Hervin. You're not at Frankie level, but who is. It's a process. You already know your style may be hard to accept. The path you chose is just harder. Good luck.

Excellent post Elanimal!

Only thing I would say is Hervin doesn't need to be at FM level. He will surely find his own level. He is just starting out.

 

[SalsaGipsy]

Respect for you, Hervin! You did well. Next time you will be better. I certainly hope there will be next time because I'll support anybody who tries to inject some real dancing into the plastic world of competitions. It is not easy to go against the system but I hope more people would do it.

Next time the choreography and performance will be more polished, you will be better prepared psychologically and you might even be better known.

At some point you'll probably evolve in a different direction but it has to happen naturally and it has to come from the heart. You have to really like it and believe in it otherwise you cannot go through this process without coming out of it yet another plastic dancer*. Just be open for other influences rather than becoming comfortable in a closed world. You probably are already, just haven't found something that clicks for you.

So, good luck and let us know from time to time how you are doing.


* I'm talking in general here from all the other competitions I've seen. I did not watch the other competitors in this one but I have no reason to believe they were any different.

 

[SoFloW]

You have some strange ax to grind with this guy or something. Try not to speak for all of us, because I was as honest as I need to be. I shared what I liked objectively and disliked subjectively.

Sorry you felt I spoke for you incorrectly.
I don't know why you'd think I have a "strange axe to grind" to have posted what I did. This is Salsa Forums, the dancing in question is not salsa, not mambo, not even rumba, just a man gyrating to salsa music asking for feedback. I was only pointing out the obvious. He tried to impose his view point, and I refused to accept. It's one of few active threads.. and here we are. I did say I think he's talented and the partner dancing is pretty good even for 10 years at it.

And I don't know why all this talk of Plastic in the competition. I saw the other male solo competitors and some of them dancing were a joy to watch by contrast.

 

[Offbeat]

And I don't know why all this talk of Plastic in the competition. I saw the other male solo competitors and some of them dancing were a joy to watch by contrast.

You enjoy plasticity Some of us don’t

Each to his own.

 

[SoFloW]

Every dance has characteristic elements, if the dance is missing those elements then it's something else. There is some crossover and of course evolution. But somewhere the line has to be drawn. Who decides? The music, and our innate understanding of what is natural, feminine or masculine, beautiful, honest and culturally appropriate.