Timing of Salsa Music

[achilles007]

Why do people in the Western world make a big deal regarding the timing of Salsa music, when it's like counting regular pop music?

When I count Salsa it's always 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8. The exact same counting I can do to the top 40 hits on the radio.

I don't get it. There's nothing really specialized here, like it's made to seem. If you can find the downbeats or upbeats of the song you can easily find the beats in between, same with regular pop music.

Can someone break down the music theory/composition to me? Tt all seems like 4/4 timing

 

[timberamayor]

Why do people in the Western world make a big deal regarding the timing of Salsa music, when it's like counting regular pop music?

When I count Salsa it's always 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8. The exact same counting I can do to the top 40 hits on the radio.

I don't get it. There's nothing really specialized here, like it's made to seem. If you can find the downbeats or upbeats of the song you can easily find the beats in between, same with regular pop music.

Can someone break down the music theory/composition to me? Tt all seems like 4/4 timing

A lot of people have hard time finding the beat for some reason. Possibly because the polyrhythmic nature of the rhythm section leaves them confused as they look for a single instrument that hist the downbeats like you get in top 40 music. If you have no problem hearing the down and up beats then that's great. I've seen so many people who are dancing way off timing and I don't mean dancing on3 or 5 or whatever, I mean dancing at the completely wrong speed for the song. So finding the beat is really a big problem for a lot of beginners and counting seems to help, although I've seen dancers counting 12345678 and stepping on completely different beats than what they are counting out themselves.

Salsa can get more complex as well switching to 6/8 if it gets into heavy afro-cuban stuff.

But I expect other people here can give you a better explanation.

 

[achilles007]

A lot of people have hard time finding the beat for some reason. Possibly because the polyrhythmic nature of the rhythm section leaves them confused as they look for a single instrument that hist the downbeats like you get in top 40 music. If you have no problem hearing the down and up beats then that's great. I've seen so many people who are dancing way off timing and I don't mean dancing on3 or 5 or whatever, I mean dancing at the completely wrong speed for the song. So finding the beat is really a big problem for a lot of beginners and counting seems to help, although I've seen dancers counting 12345678 and stepping on completely different beats than what they are counting out themselves.

Salsa can get more complex as well switching to 6/8 if it gets into heavy afro-cuban stuff.

But I expect other people here can give you a better explanation.

Thanks for the post!

I just gathered from the various discussions that Salsa is supposed to have some type of beat or timing to it that is completely different to other forms of music, when both the music and the dance still echo the same 4/4 timing. but yet, it's not called 4/4 timing, it's called something else.I just wanted to know why this was.

 

[timberamayor]

Thanks for the post!

I just gathered from the various discussions that Salsa is supposed to have some type of beat or timing to it that is completely different to other forms of music, when both the music and the dance still echo the same 4/4 timing. but yet, it's not called 4/4 timing, it's called something else.I just wanted to know why this was.

well it's built around the clave which is a syncopated rhythm and since the rest of the instruments (should) base their rhythms around this and even the phrasing of the vocals should work around this. So many people really have trouble finding the downbeat. Some very syncopated music confuses people so much that they think they are dancing on the downbeat but are actually on the upbeat. they transpose it in their head. this happens a lot with changüí for example.

But again I think there are people at this forum who can explain things much better than i do. I come from a non-counting background or rather where they counted 123 123, so I never really got into the whole 8-count method.

 

[!!!]

Why do people in the Western world make a big deal regarding the timing of Salsa music, when it's like counting regular pop music?

When I count Salsa it's always 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8. The exact same counting I can do to the top 40 hits on the radio.

I don't get it. There's nothing really specialized here, like it's made to seem. If you can find the downbeats or upbeats of the song you can easily find the beats in between, same with regular pop music.

Can someone break down the music theory/composition to me? Tt all seems like 4/4 timing

It is 4/4. (every rule has exceptions)

Actually, it's not the timing of the music, but the timing of the dance, that causes the discussions.

Equally, most people can't follow a beat, even if it's 4/4, even if they count out loud, even if it's "obvious" to those to whom it is obvious. Listen to sports fans trying to do the claps in time to "we will rock you", for example.

 

[azzey]

Why do people in the Western world make a big deal regarding the timing of Salsa music, when it's like counting regular pop music?

It would be if you could hear the pulse. In pop music the pulse is often explicit, by marking with the kick-drum. e.g. Aqua.

However, in poly-rhythmic music both the beat and the pulse are often implied.
http://www.unlikelysalsero.com/2012/10/musical-pulse-explicit-and-implicit.html

When I count Salsa it's always 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8. The exact same counting I can do to the top 40 hits on the radio.

I don't get it. There's nothing really specialized here, like it's made to seem. If you can find the downbeats or upbeats of the song you can easily find the beats in between, same with regular pop music.

Can someone break down the music theory/composition to me? Tt all seems like 4/4 timing

Afro-Cuban music is syncopated and so many of the notes you hear are not on the beat but half-way between beats. If you're used to Jazz, Swing, Ragtime etc then you may be familiar with one form of syncopation already.

How Music Works 2 - Rhythm - Part 3

Salsa uses cross-rhythms by super-imposing many rhythms on-top of each other. No one instrument can give you the down-beat or up-beat, you have to feel the implied beat by making sense of all the various rhythms being played at the same time. Which is why it's quite hard for western ears that are not used to African cross-rhythms/poly-rhythm.

Take a very simplified example...

http://salsa-merengue.co.uk/VidTutor/salsatwo/piano/core_montuno_guajeo.html

Play the sample in the above link with Piano montuno, Conga and 2-3 Son Clave.
See figure 8.9, which shows the count/beat and pulse vs the conga and montuno rhythms.

You will notice that on beats 3, 5 and 7.. the down-beat is marked by the *absence* of a note being played. Which is the African way of doing things.

How Music Works 2 - Rhythm - Part 4

The above video explains how Cuban push rhythm works in Cuban Son music, which is the basis for Salsa rhythms.

 

[azzey]

I just gathered from the various discussions that Salsa is supposed to have some type of beat or timing to it that is completely different to other forms of music, when both the music and the dance still echo the same 4/4 timing. but yet, it's not called 4/4 timing, it's called something else.I just wanted to know why this was.

You're not talking about timing here. Both Salsa and pop are 4/4 timing.

In pop there is no Clave, no syncopated rhythm and no poly-rhythms. Unless the pop has been mixed with latin music, such as Salsa or African, Cuban, Puerto Rican derived rhythms etc. That would always be in the background anyway with a kick drum over the top to give you the pulse.

In pop most often the rhythms mark the pulse of the music, with the melody playing hilights.

In a Salsa, the piano montuno rhythm (for example) there is both rhythm and melody at the same time. Which is like putting a drum in your piano. hehe. Except that this rhythm is not marking the pulse most of the time.

The clave is the key to how these rhythms (for all the instruments in the band that respect the clave) are organised. The singer also sings in a way that respects the Clave rhythm.

There are a couple of instruments that do not reflect the Clave but instead follow the pulse. These are the Guiro and the Maracas.

You may find this article interesting, along with the video examples for several instruments. This is NOT a beginners music article though! Much Salsa music knowledge is already assumed. However the videos are interesting nonetheless as they show you the instruments being played.

http://www.salsaforums.com/threads/developing-implied-clave-awareness.18680/

 

[azzey]

More information on PULSE in Pop music try these videos:

Music For Dancers 09: Pulse Series: Explicit - Don Baarns

Music For Dancers 10: Pulse Series 2: Implied - Don Baarns

I'm watching these for the first time as I post the links as I haven't had a chance to check out Don's video series yet.

 

[achilles007]

Sorry, for not getting back. Great posts, azzey and !!! !

I guess what I was trying to figure was why the different dances all evolved into the different steps and in the way they move despite it all being 4/4 timing. I watched your videos azzey on ryhthm theory of music, and he briefly touches on it towards the latter end of the segment, but not satisfactorily so.

I guess... what primarily interests me is... take Hustle and West Coast Swing for example. They all have steps that step on 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and so does Salsa., they all step to the same timing, which means that you could technically do Salsa to almost every form of popular music today outside of salsa. Yet while this makes sense theoretically, in reality it is rare. Why? so what is it about West coast swing and Hustle that gives it a much wider range of songs/music to dance to than Salsa does?

It is just mind-boggling trying to figure out why this is.

 

[terence]

S
I guess... what primarily interests me is... take Hustle and West Coast Swing for example. They all have steps that step on 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and so does Salsa., they all step to the same timing,
.

Actually , they dont . Altho there are 4 beats in the bar, its HOW those beats are allocated specific amounts of time.. for e.g..

Latin Hustle commenced with Double time, as in " Tap/ step " using 2 beats.. WCS starts on either a Coaster ( syncop time ) or..a walk, walk in single time .

The 4 notes in each bar may be full/ half/ quarter or even eights in dance terms . The combos from that basic concept is virtually limitless.
We even, for e.g. , add a Syncop. in Waltz ,where non exists in the music ! .
So, the fun part of dance ( when one learns HOW ) is experimentation , plus all of the standard musical concepts of rhythm and timing that are in vogue .

 

[azzey]

Sorry, for not getting back. Great posts, azzey and !!! !

I guess what I was trying to figure was why the different dances all evolved into the different steps and in the way they move despite it all being 4/4 timing.

IMO one word, rhythm. Different rhythms elicit different feelings of groove, which make you want to move differently. Both music and dances are a fusion and borrow from each other over time. Musicians like to develop new musical forms based on old ones with changes and they require new dances to reflect the music properly and feel like you're really dancing.

You can't dance Salsa to pop music and still feel the same as the rhythms are different. So you'd have to adapt the moves to fit the music. Hence a new dance would be born.

http://www.boogalu.com/features/history-cuban-music

The above diagram will give you an idea of some of the influences that have fused into Salsa and Cuban music over time. More historical info is available at the web site.

To understand it better you need to get a few good books and read up on the history of the music and dance.

 

[azzey]

I guess... what primarily interests me is... take Hustle and West Coast Swing for example. They all have steps that step on 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and so does Salsa.,

In Salsa (on1 timing) you step on 123-567- but not on 4 and 8. You might tap, kick, flick or otherwise punctuate the music with a body movement but you don't step on those beats.

The Clave and the pushed rhythm of Son drive you to dance a certain way.. kinda like breathing over the two bars of the clave. Breathe in then breathe out. Whereas WCS doesn't stick to two bar phrases. See below.

they all step to the same timing,

As Terence said, WCS has 3 kinds of basic step rhythms, some of which are syncopated. Which are developed into 4, 6 and 8 beat step patterns. If you use two 6 beat patterns obviously they don't finish on 8 always.

Examples here:
http://www.skippyblair.com/wcs.htm

which means that you could technically do Salsa to almost every form of popular music today outside of salsa. Yet while this makes sense theoretically, in reality it is rare. Why?

Beginners do it but then they're not used to Salsa music rhythms yet. Try dancing like you do with rock music to pop music, RnB or Country instead.. doesn't have the same feel does it?

so what is it about West coast swing and Hustle that gives it a much wider range of songs/music to dance to than Salsa does?

It's a good question. I'm no expert on WCS though I have dabbled. I would think possibly because WCS makes use of explicit pulse and inner pulse for musicality, along with other aspects like rhythm and melody. Though Terence would be able to answer that better than me.

It is just mind-boggling trying to figure out why this is.

Hehe. No kidding. I've been researching this stuff for a decade and I'm still learning new stuff all the time.

 

[azzey]

I guess what I was trying to figure was why the different dances all evolved into the different steps and in the way they move despite it all being 4/4 timing.

Some steps in the fusion are from folk dances: Guaguanco Rumba, Columbia developed into shines, footwork and provide the basic body motions. Also your Colombian style salsa basic step is developed from this.

Other steps are from Contradanza->Danzon->Son, also Swing->Son and other fusions.

Contradanza has a political past:
http://salsa-merengue.co.uk/revealit/histsal/part2.html

Swing had a influence on the variety of turns of Son and Salsa and therefore required more variations of the basic step.

Miercoles may be able to give you more info on the historical development of Son as I believe his instructor is documenting this.

 

[terence]

so what is it about West coast swing and Hustle that gives it a much wider range of songs/music to dance to than Salsa does?

.

Simply this.. the " swing " genres, have a much greater range of musical styles from which to choose, from Blues, C andW, Jazz,, to Ballads etc.add to this, the variety of time signatures, from 2/4 to 6/8 .
Also to realise, salsa has also been influenced by Jazz to some degree ( a lot, is more for listening than dance ), and, it tends to draw from its base origins .

 

[achilles007]

I?s this the WCS coaster, Terence?:

i tried googling this step and all they say is that it's some type of ending step... youtube has hardly turned up any stellar results.

And when you say Double time in Latin Hustle?:

Does that mean the "&1,2,3"count that the above couple shows in the basic step with the backrock on the &?

Sorry, I haven't taken a music theory class, so some of these terms are over my head

 

[azzey]

As Terence said, WCS has 3 kinds of basic step rhythms, some of which are syncopated. Which are developed into 4, 6 and 8 beat step patterns. If you use two 6 beat patterns obviously they don't finish on 8 always.

Here's some examples of basic step syncopations using 6 and 8 beat patterns:
Back to Basics West Coast Swing

Leading and Following Syncopation

 

[terence]

I?s this the WCS coaster, Terence?:

And when you say Double time in Latin Hustle?:

Yep, thats a Coaster.. its been abandoned in some areas, for an " Anchor " beginning .

The 2nd vid is not Latin Hustle.. thats "3" count .

Double time,as in LH, is because the Tap takes up a whole beat ,without weight change (1 - 2 ) followed by a " throwout" from a lateral direction, timed as 3 and 4 .

 

[UnlikelySalsero]

You're not talking about timing here. Both Salsa and pop are 4/4 timing.

In pop there is no Clave, no syncopated rhythm and no poly-rhythms. Unless the pop has been mixed with latin music, such as Salsa or African, Cuban, Puerto Rican derived rhythms etc. That would always be in the background anyway with a kick drum over the top to give you the pulse.

<snip>

Azzey and I rarely disagree, I have great respect for his POV.

Not to nit-pick, but lots of pop, hip-hop and R&B has syncopated rhythms, and plenty have implied clave. While there may be a strong snare drum on 2 & 4, that doesn't mean all the other drums/instruments are playing a simple pulse. And some do have poly-rhythms.

And you're right, there's lots of modern pop mixed with afro-cuban influences. Some is very simple, some is much more complex.

Over time most music styles add elements from others...

 

[timberamayor]

Azzey and I rarely disagree, I have great respect for his POV.

Not to nit-pick, but lots of pop, hip-hop and R&B has syncopated rhythms, and plenty have implied clave. While there may be a strong snare drum on 2 & 4, that doesn't mean all the other drums/instruments are playing a simple pulse. And some do have poly-rhythms.

And you're right, there's lots of modern pop mixed with afro-cuban influences. Some is very simple, some is much more complex.

Over time most music styles add elements from others...

You are nitpicking , but indeed correct. Lots of chachachá in rock for example. But Azzey's right that you don't get the same "groove" or "feel" dancing salsa to other music. Watching the US finals of Dancing with the Stars the other day (not by choice) and it just looked and felt totally wrong for them to dance samba and chachacha to songs that were not samba or chachacha. The judges seemed to think it was intended as a challenge to dance to songs that have nothing to do with the dance genre, but to me it was just yuck. No groove just dancing choreography by numbers to some popular radio songs.

 

[UnlikelySalsero]

More information on PULSE in Pop music try these videos:

<snip>

.

BTW - These videos do use commercial music to illustrate the pulse concepts, and the same principles apply to salsa music. The clave creates an asymmetrical pulse on top of the primary pulse, making a more complex, richer rhythmic structure.

If someone doesn't have a grounding in the music, salsa can be too complex to hear the foundational principles. Hearing the principles in simpler music is like learning basis steps and single turns before you start complex patterns and triple turns while learning dance.

It's easier to start with basics and build.