thoughts on teaching on2 in on1 prevalent scene?

I didn't say there was anything wrong with Daniel, he wasn't in the 2 clips I referenced, he was in the 3rd clip, though I don't think he's very NY either to watch, but at least he leads in time.

I was referring to the videos in the post numbers I mentioned in my reply (posts 200 and 207). I can't be bothered to go back and link to them. Look, as I also suggested, maybe it was the women rushing, not the guys, I only watched once. I also said I didn't think the video you posted was bad per se, just it didn't clearly highlight what to me what makes NY style.

AND I already said what I think makes NY NY isn't something I could easily find a video for. Is reading what I wrote so hard? But in case it is, here it is again.

londongirl said:
In my opinion, and based on conversations I've had with others that have spent considerable time in NY but come from other scenes, many of the fundamental things that make up the style of NYC are not going to be visible in video (ie baseline energy/type of connection), nor able to be captured in one clip, especially with "names" who know the camera is on them.
Click to expand...

If I could identify what makes NY NY I wouldn't have needed to spend 6 months there, and not necessarily be much wiser in terms of being able to articulate it. But I can often pick dancers that have trained in NY out at a social in another country (based on timing/rhythm, basic step and the way the break steps are stepped (maybe more a female than male thing), emphasis on 2/6, way react to music, "styling", shines, some patterns are also more NY, there's a grooving that also doesn't happen in many non-NY/non-latino scenes, and a few other things). Also what makes NY for me, isn't going to be the same for someone else. I didn't originally post, because I knew it was totally pointless. So I'll just go back to discussing it privately with people that dont get their knickers in a twist and demand the impossible perfect video that sums up NY style (not that I have time to find it even if it existed).
 
Last edited:
vit said:
Thanks. Interesting combination, I never danced a copa after a hook turn, although I'm familiar with what is described as 'cape movement' - just leading a spin after copa with right hand instead of left ... Will try this
Click to expand...
This is a real nit, but I think the "cape" part is referring to the leaders turn after that, supposed to look like the lead is throwing a cape around himself.
 
MAMBO_CEC said:
I've included a clip of what I think is a typical NY style lead is.

Click to expand...

The audio-visual quality of this clip is a bit off, and the song is very fast--here is a better one. Slower song too, so Rasove's timing is easier to observe. (Won't give my opinion, so as to not bias people before they watch it themselves ;))

 
Last edited:
Salsa Student said:
This is a real nit, but I think the "cape" part is referring to the leaders turn after that, supposed to look like the lead is throwing a cape around himself.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's actually what he says right at the beginning (which I skipped watching this for the first time, looking for explanation in the middle). Yeah, we had similar move in on1 classes (although without name), just turning to the opposite direction - after leading a follower into right spin and start turning right after her in double hold (he preferred to move first one arm over the head and then another, instead both arms together like on this clip - it looks more dynamic as people see 2 separate movements). It was followed by flicking follower's arm on her back, giving her several spins to opposite direction to unwind the arms and finishing with copa). Here, it's half turn more for the leader, so you must be able to spin accurately that much first before attempting that with a partner of course - follower's job is easier here...
 
Sabrosura said:
H re is a better one. Slower song too, so Rasove's timing is easier to observe. (Won't give my opinion, so as to not bias people before they watch it themselves ;))

Click to expand...

Yes, I think this clips was posted not long ago. It's nice dancing, very fluid transitions from slower to faster actions, nice match to the rhythm.
What I see on this and some other clips is quite specific way of stepping, different than in other styles and actually isn't looking latin at all (compared to cuban salsa where the purpose of the step is to actually move). It's not that I dislike it, it's just how I see it - different - certainly much better than doing taps instead of steps like many guys in my venue ... And what I really like here, I didn't see free leader's arm put behind his back on the clip like many do for some reason

I think it would be better to move discussion about specifics of NY style in some other thread ore merge it with similar if exist (but I don't remember of such topic as long as I'm a member of SF) - because this is off-topic but I would like to continue this discussion which is becoming interesting
 
Honesty, this 'NY style' discussion feels a bit like the Emperor's New Clothes. People are convinced it exists, yet it's hard to point to an example, and even ET has come under attack.

It seems to be that in the high days of Salsa in NY there was a host of styles, far more diverse than the distance tween Baso and Santo Rico. What this suggests to me is that if 'NY style' (the magical unicorn, not just the general 'ET2' timing and general guidelines) does indeed exist it must be a fairly modern development and not necessarily something to aspire to (unless it rings your bell, then go for it) as a Holy Grail. It's certainly not an issue of 'NY roots of Salsa as a dance.'

So let's obsess less and enjoy our styles more?

One thing seems for sure, 'LA Style' Salsa seems a much more concrete entity than 'NY,' and is easily pointed out: we just hit up any of the Vasquez brothers for a clip (though not Johnny of late so much.)
 
Bringing it back to the OP, if there are elements from the NY style (yes an umbrella term for the different schools and their techniques) that one loves so much, it is truly the case that on2 foot placement and weight transfer facilitates the acquisition of those elements? Perhaps in the execution and follow of certain turn patterns, but that's not what we really mean when we say we want to "introduce on2 to an on1 scene" is it?

Jag75 said:
It's a fallacy, a myth that on2 is "smoother" or more musical than on1. It *entirely* depends on the skill of the dancer.
Click to expand...

Now that I think about it, it seems misguided to bring the "NY on2" style to an on1 scene. Assuming it's even possible, would that mean your on1 dancing would remain unaffected, and the "superior" qualities of on2 would only manifest when you danced on2?

I think the real outcome would be that you'd have same kind of dancing, just on a different foot placement. Living and dancing in LA has showed me this. I see dancers (followers in particular) that have made the "switch", and they look and feel the same to me whether we dance on on1 or on2.

Perhaps as an instructor, one's focus should be on incorporating elements, techniques, and habits from different styles that one feels improves the level of social dancing regardless of foot placement. I'm unconvinced that these things are tightly coupled to foot placement.

Here are things I try to work on myself that I wish schools in my area focused on:
  • understanding the music - the different salsa rhythms
  • shines shines shines (as I understand it, NY schools emphasizes this very much)
 
Last edited:
wildbill20056 said:
So let's obsess less and enjoy our styles more?
Click to expand...

Well, I would like to know more about NY style (and other styles), because I probably won't be traveling to NY in the near future.
I'm certainly not obsessed with NY style - there are things I don't like, for instance as ex., ballroom dancer where there is really much movement (and adding zouk and WCS lessons to this), I'm not really thrilled with dancing mostly on the spot and there is usually enough space on the dance floors in my venue to move more. Also, doing many complex patterns isn't practical for me - I simply can't memorize big number of patterns in all dances I'm dancing, so I'm sticking to more simplistic dancing and trying to compensate with musicality. But there are things I like in posted clips of NY style, like smooth execution of the moves, nice musical interpretation etc
 
wildbill20056 said:
One thing seems for sure, 'LA Style' Salsa seems a much more concrete entity than 'NY,' and is easily pointed out: we just hit up any of the Vasquez brothers for a clip (though not Johnny of late so much.)
Click to expand...
Except that Vasquez brothers dance socially differently than on stage; that most people in LA dance like most people elsewhere; and that they (Vasquez Bothers ) make multiple spins on the heel!!!
 
Ups ... I thought I would be criticized about criticizing some things in that clip ...

Can you give more verbose opinion, terence
 
T
MAMBO_CEC said:
Here you have two people dancing On2 that are not New Yorkers, Nery is from Florida and Liz who happens to be one of my favourite follows is from San Francisco, are they meeting all the basic requirements that would classify them as dancing NY style? probably !!! (dancing in the slot!!!!, good tension etc) Nery however is taking big steps.For me NY style is about many things,In addition to dancing in the slot, good tension between lead and follow, there are the turn patterns that are led, some being unique to New York (eg. the Copa, Copa cape etc.). I've included a clip of what I think is a typical NY style lead is.

Click to expand...
That's Puerto Rican On2 - timing is reverse ET On2, and a slightly different (closer) style.
 
Ah cr*p - I watched it again, with more volume - yep def NY on2 - it seems Jorget dances with a more PR "style", unless I'm seeing things - the timing in the clip is def standard NY on2 (ET)
 
Smejmoon said:
Except that Vasquez brothers dance socially differently than on stage; that most people in LA dance like most people elsewhere; and that they (Vasquez Bothers ) make multiple spins on the heel!!!
Click to expand...

That's more true of Johnny I would say,there are some pretty brutal clips on the social floor of the others. I agree that most people in the area won't dance 'LA style' Salsa, just that the style itself is pretty easy to point to if we need to. :)
 
vit said:
Ups ... I thought I would be criticized about criticizing some things in that clip ...

Can you give more verbose opinion, terence
Click to expand...



1..... Spins on Heels
2.........takes back break whilst lady is in spotted rotation .
3.. some heel leads on fwd steps .
4... dont like his hold with left hand .

In fairness; Sometimes, tho faults may appear, the follower may be oblivious to them. Thats not to say, they should be excused, but it certainly would improve the appearance and the standard.
 
terence said:
1..... Spins on Heels
2.........takes back break whilst lady is in spotted rotation .
3.. some heel leads on fwd steps .
4... dont like his hold with left hand .
Click to expand...

Ehmm ... are we talking about the same clip, referenced by AndrewS ?


As about --heels--, this guy, compared to several other clips posted recently (those from France for instance and Nery Garcia) actually isn't backpoised and he isn't using heels that much. Also, I can't see him making back break while lady is rotating - actually there are barely any break steps here - to me, break step means a change of direction of movement and not just marking the time on the upbeats and almost not moving. What I see here is a kind of funky steps (don't know is it the right word), both knees constantly bent, almost no bending/stretching and connected body movement, raising heels relatively high from the ground while stepping etc - seems to be specific of this style, just I don't know how to step like that, not connected to anything I've been doing so far...

disclaimer: I'm not trying to say that there is something wrong with NY style if this clip is a good representative of it, just trying to observe what is specific in this style
 
AndrewS said:
Couldn't watch past 30 seconds. His dancing is not at all appealing to me
Click to expand...
Could you be more specific?, apart from saying his dancing does not appeal to me, he is dancing to a slow salsa,which not a lot of people can do very well, I happen to like Rasove, another one of my NY favs and I personally think he's doing a great job, so does Emmanuel the other guy who joins in. It's amazing how much nit picking is going when you post clips, do people really dissect other people's dancing that much to point where they know eactly what number they're stepping on, take it for what it is, two very good dancers social dancing at a congress and having fun!!!
 
Jag75 said:
Ah cr*p - I watched it again, with more volume - yep def NY on2 - it seems Jorget dances with a more PR "style", unless I'm seeing things - the timing in the clip is def standard NY on2 (ET)
Click to expand...
Yes she does, I went to workshop with her recently, and she said that in Houston TX, where she and Troy live now, the dominant On2 style is PR2. Well spotted.
 
  • Like
Reactions: vit
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top