thoughts on teaching on2 in on1 prevalent scene?

[tallpaul]

Amen. But: I don't think anyone has ever claimed changing one's break step from 1 to 2 does anything to automatically improve one's dancing

I would dispute that Sabs. It may not be an intentional thing - but it's certainly spoken of in those terms, leaving the implication if not making the explicit claim. (Certainly Marisol's earlier post made that implication pretty clearly).

In on1 dominated scenes (particularly east of the Atlantic), "on2" is often spoken of in mythical tones - often by amateur teachers who've recently taken a crash course in NY style dancing themselves, and want to get their students dancing "on2 turn patterns", like this will magically transform their dancing.

Some students make the switch without becoming substantially better dancers (while still congratulating themselves that they have joined the "elite" of On2 dancers). I think for someone who is already learning On1 (especially leaders, who definitely do have a harder time switching than followers do), it's a case of deciding when they're ready for the challenge of making the switch, they may be better served by sticking with the familiar for the time being. (I certainly took several "introduction to on2" lessons over a period of 2 or 3 years before it finally "clicked" for me - and I would think of myself as having certain rhythmic advantages from a prior musical background).

This is why I would respect the approach Toan-Hoang has outlined for the UK context - putting an emphasis on all the important subjects like musicality, rhythmic awareness, body movement, passion for music (particularly live music) - whilst challenging the "dancing on2 makes you advanced" myth that does exist.

I don't think anyone has ever claimed changing one's break step from 1 to 2 does anything to automatically improve one's dancing--that's up to the dancer.

Yes. It's also up to the teachers they have access to, though. Away from New York, people may sometimes find themselves choosing between On2 "moves-focused" teachers (i.e. pattern monkeys), or more rounded "musicality-focused" On1 teachers. Not always, thankfully. And of course, sometimes the right answer is to take classes with both, if that's what's available.

When I refer to "on2" dancing, I mean dancing, with all the elements that comprise that, not just robotic stepping on certain counts.

Tis true. But by the same token "on1" dancing should also mean the same thing, with everything that "dancing" implies...

Agree with everything else you're saying here.

 

[Ciaran Hegarty]

You're getting your time and your timing mixed up there Paul.

 

[tallpaul]

Doh! How weird was that... Now fixed, thanks

 

[MAMBO_CEC]

I know that DJ Ara used to have a set of core salsa areas,e.g. NY,PR ,CALI etc, has anyone ever come up with what would be the core areas for On2?, it should make interesting reading, just off the top on my head I would say, NYC/NJ, San Fran, Boston?, Seoul and maybe Milan and perhaps Tokyo. That leaves a lot of places where On1 and perhaps On3 is king, so come on you On1 folks, you rule the world. For me anyway, on2 is a preference, this is not to put down on1 or denigrate it, actually I yearn for a time when everyone danced on the same beat, and I could go out and dance with everyone, without people coming up to me asking, do you dance Cuban, or sorry I can only dance on1 or on2. Anyway last Friday night I got a glimpse as to what the future holds for our scene....Kizombies(no malice just having fun with the word). Lets just say a lot of the hard core salseros were pissed off, but in the organisers defence they did advertise it as "LATIN NIGHT".

 

[GroovyMambo]

Anyway last Friday night I got a glimpse as to what the future holds for our scene....Kizombies(no malice just having fun with the word). Lets just say a lot of the hard core salseros were pissed off, but in the organisers defence they did advertise it as "LATIN NIGHT".

Yeah, each "set" consisted of one salsa (mambo, timba, or monga, err. romántica), one bachata, and one kizomba. In spite of the disappointing music selection, I had fun. I enjoyed all of my dances, the stylish venue (Teatro ZinZanni), and my IPA!

 

[DJ Yuca]

Anyway last Friday night I got a glimpse as to what the future holds for our scene....Kizombies(no malice just having fun with the word). Lets just say a lot of the hard core salseros were pissed off, but in the organisers defence they did advertise it as "LATIN NIGHT".

Yeah, each "set" consisted of one salsa (mambo, timba, or monga, err. romántica), one bachata, and one kizomba.

So a Latin night contains one third non-Latin music? An interesting definition.

Sounds like hell on earth, btw.

 

[hyh]

Watch the stepping again. Yes, he calls the first step "1" and he counts it out loud "1", but he is *stepping* before the actual "beat 1" in the music--he steps on the congas "cun-cun", which by definition is before the 1, as the 1 comes *after* the "cun-cun" conga hits.

Watched again and then got really busy. Yes, it's clear that he steps on 8& often enough so I concede.

Although this now explains many of points (e.g. made by B/S) I previously found confusing and mystifying, the biggest thing it does it make me think less of ET. Maybe I'll start a thread in the future when there is a lull in conversation and call it something like ET2, where 1 is not 1.

 

[Sabrosura]

Watched again and then got really busy. Yes, it's clear that he steps on 8& often enough so I concede.

Although this now explains many of points (e.g. made by B/S) I previously found confusing and mystifying, the biggest thing it does it make me think less of ET. Maybe I'll start a thread in the future when there is a lull in conversation and call it something like ET2, where 1 is not 1.

Are you saying he can't count the music? I highly doubt that. He's dancing to the music. Why do you view stepping on the congas as "wrong"? Stepping like that emphasizes the 2.

Further, Eddie (and others) is really dancing (close to) Power 2 i.e. what the original mambo dancers danced (as he says, that's how everyone was dancing back then), and for them, the 1 does not matter much except as the beat that comes before the 2. So perhaps that explains why on2 dancers like to play with the "1", using it as a way to add sharpness or smoothness, depending on how they feel the music.

 

[Smejmoon]

You are really adding too much magic. It's natural for people to step on conga beats, when congas are the only instrument they hear. Or step on 1 and 5 when they hear full salsa song. This is what Eddie Torres is doing. You hear a sound - you step on it.

 

[Smejmoon]

And the drift towards classic on2 is (imho) to make traveling forward and back less jerky. Other way how people solve this it is shift sideways.

 

[Sabrosura]

You are really adding too much magic. It's natural for people to step on conga beats, when congas are the only instrument they hear. Or step on 1 and 5 when they hear full salsa song. This is what Eddie Torres is doing. You hear a sound - you step on it.

I don't know if this is magic, it's just what happens when you dance to the music and not to robotic counts. Stepping on 1/5 is not necessarily natural since mambo dancers did not step on 1 at all.

 

[Smejmoon]

Stepping on 1/5 is not necessarily natural since mambo dancers did not step on 1 at all.

That's why I spelled out - "full salsa song". Stepping on 1/5 is natural for ET, all I'm sayin'.

 

[hyh]

First, I'm assuming we're all agreeing that ET is stepping on the second "cun" of "cun-cun" (or 8& or 8.5) rather than on the first "cun" of "cun-cun" (or 8). Stepping on 8 would be Power2 with caveat that original Power2 had the lead stepping forward on 2 rather than on 6.

Watch the stepping again. Yes, he calls the first step "1" and he counts it out loud "1", but he is *stepping* before the actual "beat 1" in the music--he steps on the congas "cun-cun", which by definition is before the 1, as the 1 comes *after* the "cun-cun" conga hits.

Are you saying he can't count the music?

I'd say that when that video was made, ET either did not know that he was stepping on 8& as opposed to 1 OR that ET made a conscious choice to call 8& as 1. I don't know which is the truth, but he's wrong or has made a highly unsatisfactory choice. For whatever it's worth, ET uses a rather bizarre "pseudo" (?) musical notation in the chart in the video, which makes me lean towards ignorance.

Why do you view stepping on the congas as "wrong"?

I never said that, and I don't think of it as wrong - although a bit unusual for picking 8& rather than 8 given the consequences and complexities stemming from that choice.

I suppose I have heard of weirder stepping choices. For example, Terence has demonstrated to me in the past about people who dance on clave (or stepping on clave - or stepping on the 5 beats of the clave).

Stepping like that emphasizes the 2.

Choice of stepping on 8 or 8& or 1 really shouldn't make any difference on emphasizing the 2.

So perhaps that explains why on2 dancers like to play with the "1", using it as a way to add sharpness or smoothness, depending on how they feel the music.

Choice of beats to step on should have no effect on sharpness / smoothness.

 

[Kading]

Eddie Torres steps either on 4, 4,5 or very close to 1. His 2 and 3 are rock solid

 

[terence]

[quote="hyh, post: 256827, member:

I suppose I have heard of weirder stepping choices.
For example, Terence has demonstrated to me in the past about people who dance on clave (or stepping on clave - or stepping on the 5 beats of the clave).


[/quote]

In " Son ", common place... and also in salsa, given the right music .

 

[Smejmoon]

Eddie Torres steps either on 4, 4,5 or very close to 1. His 2 and 3 are rock solid

These are his demo/teaching videos, they contradict these statements.

Basically Eddie Torres is too contradictory and random to use as an example.

 

[acpjr]

So I value everyone's thoughts and feedback, if someone taught on2 to students what do you think?

As previously mentioned, if your intention is to increase on2 fluency when most have only native fluency on1, you have to start with existing native on1 dancers instead of creating on2 dancers out of thin air (by training beginners).

Whether or not you believe the on2 mystique is good or bad or right or wrong, it's very powerful in generating interest in learning to dance on2 in a non-on2 scene. You're gonna have to roll out the on2 hype machine. If you think it goes against your integrity to promote ideas like on2 is smoother/cooler/funkier than on1, you still have the angle of appealing to one's ego: "most advanced dancers can dance on1 and on2, are you an advanced dancer?"

If your fear is that you'll somehow create on2 snobbery and your students will abandon on1 in favor of on2 and only dance with each other, you are already admitting failure as an instructor by not promoting the dance as a social dance that welcomes all styles and skill levels.

My preference is on2 NYC style.

Are you sure you are fluent enough in that style? Are you sure you can even bring a social dancing style from one part of the world to another and keep it pure? Perhaps it's easier with a performance dances like flamenco or the jig, where you're always looking towards the roots to get it right, but I have serious doubts when the social dance vocabulary is highly influenced by the dancers and instructors in the region.

"LA style" is a style of dancing.
"Dancing on1" is not.

"New York style" is a style of dancing.
"Dancing on2" is not.

Timing is not style.

I have finally understood this after years of dancing. I took a workshop with Adolfo Indacochea where he basically echoed the same thing. He said, "you can teach NY timing, but not NY style".

Why the obsession with mimicking another region's style? I think it's actually cool to have London on2, LA on2, Sydney on2, etc. If you looked at it that way, maybe you'd enjoy the challenge of going to a different scene and adapting to its style. Kinda like going to another country that speaks your native tongue but with a different accent, and trying to fool them into thinking you're one of them.

 

[vit]

I took a workshop with Adolfo Indacochea where he basically echoed the same thing. He said, "you can teach NY timing, but not NY style".

Well, maybe he is not able to teach the style but only the timing so he thinks it's an universal rule

 

[MAMBO_CEC]

As previously mentioned, if your intention is to increase on2 fluency when most have only native fluency on1, you have to start with existing native on1 dancers instead of creating on2 dancers out of thin air (by training beginners).

Whether or not you believe the on2 mystique is good or bad or right or wrong, it's very powerful in generating interest in learning to dance on2 in a non-on2 scene. You're gonna have to roll out the on2 hype machine. If you think it goes against your integrity to promote ideas like on2 is smoother/cooler/funkier than on1, you still have the angle of appealing to one's ego: "most advanced dancers can dance on1 and on2, are you an advanced dancer?"

If your fear is that you'll somehow create on2 snobbery and your students will abandon on1 in favor of on2 and only dance with each other, you are already admitting failure as an instructor by not promoting the dance as a social dance that welcomes all styles and skill levels.



Are you sure you are fluent enough in that style? Are you sure you can even bring a social dancing style from one part of the world to another and keep it pure? Perhaps it's easier with a performance dances like flamenco or the jig, where you're always looking towards the roots to get it right, but I have serious doubts when the social dance vocabulary is highly influenced by the dancers and instructors in the region.



I have finally understood this after years of dancing. I took a workshop with Adolfo Indacochea where he basically echoed the same thing. He said, "you can teach NY timing, but not NY style".

Why the obsession with mimicking another region's style? I think it's actually cool to have London on2, LA on2, Sydney on2, etc. If you looked at it that way, maybe you'd enjoy the challenge of going to a different scene and adapting to its style. Kinda like going to another country that speaks your native tongue but with a different accent, and trying to fool them into thinking you're one of them.

Seattle On2??? hmmmm now there's a concept!!!

 

[vit]

This clip was posted several days ago in one of threads. Nery was dancing on1 previously, this is first clip where I see him dancing on2.
Does this classify as NY style ? If yes, why, if not why. Timing seems to be ok to me, it's nice dancing, just don't know about other things ...