From the "This week in my dancing I'm working on..." thread:
Okay, here's where we can talk about spins... start addingazzey said:
"This week I'm working on my spins" thread!
- Thread starter MacMoto
- Start date
sweavo
Changui
A bit odd, out of context but ...
This is mostly about really free spins rather than led free spins IYSWIM.
I had an epiphany moment for spinning watching Gareth from Encuentro Latino making a turn. He placed his hands at his hips and you could almost SEE his mind drop to his center of gravity, like a giant invisible pin was stuck in him. He seemed to be intensely focused on his core, below the level of the ribs, and the turn seemed utterly effortless, smooth and natural. Sometimes I'm able to capture that feeling and the turns really do benefit.
Once you can do that, 90% of the other challenges are mental not physical. Putting your arms up encourages you to focus away from your core, which means you're not even using the skills you already do have.
Part of the problem is thinking that you must use lots more energy to make more turns. No so. Usually the dancer needs only a little more energy but a lot more efficiency. More revolutions come if the energy is not lost in excessive friction, extraneous movement, and inefficient posture.
Again, the mind is the enemy here. A great way to add a turn (e.g. from single to double or double to triple) is to add the extra turn on the start instead of the end. Step around a single turn, which you know is easy, then collect for the remaining spins, which you also know you can do. This will allow you to get used to some of the sensations of taking the extra turn without even getting outside your comfort zone.
For a follower, she has more distractions because she is being led, and her arms, inertia and other body parts may not fully be her own as she enters the spin. Again, focus on the core, drill it when not being led, make it your own, and allow the external influences to become secondary.
This is mostly about really free spins rather than led free spins IYSWIM.
I had an epiphany moment for spinning watching Gareth from Encuentro Latino making a turn. He placed his hands at his hips and you could almost SEE his mind drop to his center of gravity, like a giant invisible pin was stuck in him. He seemed to be intensely focused on his core, below the level of the ribs, and the turn seemed utterly effortless, smooth and natural. Sometimes I'm able to capture that feeling and the turns really do benefit.
Once you can do that, 90% of the other challenges are mental not physical. Putting your arms up encourages you to focus away from your core, which means you're not even using the skills you already do have.
Part of the problem is thinking that you must use lots more energy to make more turns. No so. Usually the dancer needs only a little more energy but a lot more efficiency. More revolutions come if the energy is not lost in excessive friction, extraneous movement, and inefficient posture.
Again, the mind is the enemy here. A great way to add a turn (e.g. from single to double or double to triple) is to add the extra turn on the start instead of the end. Step around a single turn, which you know is easy, then collect for the remaining spins, which you also know you can do. This will allow you to get used to some of the sensations of taking the extra turn without even getting outside your comfort zone.
For a follower, she has more distractions because she is being led, and her arms, inertia and other body parts may not fully be her own as she enters the spin. Again, focus on the core, drill it when not being led, make it your own, and allow the external influences to become secondary.
Re: A bit odd, out of context but ...
Thanks sweavo!
Thanks sweavo!
My experience with spot spins tells me this is absolutely true... haven't cracked it with those damned launched free spins yet, but I'm sure you are absolutely right.sweavo said:
That's a very interesting point... will have to try this.sweavo said:
Spinning is something that can only be learnt over time, and the best way it to build up slowly, start with single turns feet together, step to the left, prep body left then turn right finish with feet together, then do the opposite to turn left, concentrate on turing shoulders first and let body catch up, obviously you need to work on your head to learn to spot correctly, keep arms out in front shoulder level first, this is the easiest way to keep your balance. Once you can do that perfect single turn, whitch will take time you can move on.
Then move on with a 1 1/2 turn this will improve your spotting and control, use the same technique and spin only on 1 foot, your head should spot the half turn first then the complete turn, most people can learn to turn in a short time frame, the hard thing is stopping in the right place, your head will control this. Always turn one way then the other so you don't learn to only spin one way.
Once you have done this keep going, same technique for 2 then 21/2, 3, 31/2 you can keep going. Once you can learn to control your centre you can learn any type of spin that much easier.
Hands on your hips or arms above the head, are harder to execute, because you will need them to generate power as you are learning to turn, eventually you can use your core and your head to generate the power.
One of the biggest misconceptions is to lower your body and bend your knees while turning, you can bend your knees during the prep but lift your self up during the turn, keep your head up, shoulders back and relaxed and generally good posture, without locking your knees, this will help to keep you centre.
Most artists will give you different answers of how they create there power in turns but it will generally be shoulders, core or head, not legs or hips. For me it is just spotting quicker.
Most of them learn't using this excersise, as it is a sure way of teaching you to turn. I built up to being able to do around 4 turns consistantly just by doing the excersises for 5 minutes a day for about 4 months, before this I coulde barely do 2 turns without falling over.
Obviously there is alot more technique for actually leading and following with a partner but if you can spin on your own, being led is not hard to learn.
Now do I get a prize for the longest first post in the forum, or has some one posted longer.
Then move on with a 1 1/2 turn this will improve your spotting and control, use the same technique and spin only on 1 foot, your head should spot the half turn first then the complete turn, most people can learn to turn in a short time frame, the hard thing is stopping in the right place, your head will control this. Always turn one way then the other so you don't learn to only spin one way.
Once you have done this keep going, same technique for 2 then 21/2, 3, 31/2 you can keep going. Once you can learn to control your centre you can learn any type of spin that much easier.
Hands on your hips or arms above the head, are harder to execute, because you will need them to generate power as you are learning to turn, eventually you can use your core and your head to generate the power.
One of the biggest misconceptions is to lower your body and bend your knees while turning, you can bend your knees during the prep but lift your self up during the turn, keep your head up, shoulders back and relaxed and generally good posture, without locking your knees, this will help to keep you centre.
Most artists will give you different answers of how they create there power in turns but it will generally be shoulders, core or head, not legs or hips. For me it is just spotting quicker.
Most of them learn't using this excersise, as it is a sure way of teaching you to turn. I built up to being able to do around 4 turns consistantly just by doing the excersises for 5 minutes a day for about 4 months, before this I coulde barely do 2 turns without falling over.
Obviously there is alot more technique for actually leading and following with a partner but if you can spin on your own, being led is not hard to learn.
Now do I get a prize for the longest first post in the forum, or has some one posted longer
.
sweavo
Changui
J&A said:
Great post, only I disagree on this point. There is no lifting or dropping during the turn. In ballet sure, everything snaps straight and solid and the whole body turns as a unit. In salsa it's somewhat softer and sections of the body are to some extent isolated. The knees should be unlocked, as you say.
I think the big problem with the idea of "bend the knees and sink" is that it encourages you to collapse the ribcage and lose posture. In that sense there definitely is a sense of "drawing up" through the spine, but this shouldn't get to the point of straightening the legs.
Now I've written it down, I'm not sure whether I actually disagree with you after all, maybe it's just the way I read it!
/edit: You have a ways to go with post length. Smiling has made longer posts even if you only count the exclamation marks!!!!!!!
Ok I have just re read my sentance, it wasn't clear, most people say that you should bend you knees and lower your body I am saying when turning stay up during the turn to keep your posture. If you prep normally you don't really need to lower your body, when using the american spin most girls will bend their knees for stability, my point is you do not stay low for the actual turn. during the actual turn you should not be changing height.
This is difficult to put into words, much easier to demonstrate!!!!
This is difficult to put into words, much easier to demonstrate!!!!
Welcome to the Forums – J&A – don’t think it’s the longest first post, but a commendable effort nevertheless 
All good advice.
Here are the tit bits of info I’ve picked up.
- Trust your spotting, it’s more important than power.
- Engage your core muscles, tense your buttocks – wobbly flesh is more likely to take you off balance
- Practice, practice, practice. You can learn footwork pretty quickly, but spinning is different, it can take months to get results.
In terms of spinning I’m pretty happy with what I can do (free doubles in both directions) in practice I can do triples and the occasional quad, but don’t really need them for social dancing. Doing more spins in practice is useful though, as it makes my doubles pretty effortless.
However, when doing spins my spotting is awful – so this is what I’m working on. I’m trying to spot every turn, even singles (being lazy I have a tendency not to spot for these) – eventually I want it to be instinctive, rather than a conscious decision.
All good advice.
Here are the tit bits of info I’ve picked up.
- Trust your spotting, it’s more important than power.
- Engage your core muscles, tense your buttocks – wobbly flesh is more likely to take you off balance
- Practice, practice, practice. You can learn footwork pretty quickly, but spinning is different, it can take months to get results.
In terms of spinning I’m pretty happy with what I can do (free doubles in both directions) in practice I can do triples and the occasional quad, but don’t really need them for social dancing. Doing more spins in practice is useful though, as it makes my doubles pretty effortless.
However, when doing spins my spotting is awful – so this is what I’m working on. I’m trying to spot every turn, even singles (being lazy I have a tendency not to spot for these) – eventually I want it to be instinctive, rather than a conscious decision.
The other foot...
A tip I recently learnt from my congress experience was that in the the spin prep, resist the urge to push off your left leg (doing a right hand turn) as it will push you off balance! I had been struggling for ages with falling out of my spins at the end - an issue i see a lot of people doing, and I really couldn't figure out why! (it was driving me crazy!). Turns out, I was pushing off this foot too much (to try and get as much momentum as possible!) which was consequently pushing me off balance as I spun. It should be purely there for support and to put down at the end of the spin, and your shoulders should be where the spin momentum comes from.
I tried in my usual class this week without that extra push and much to my delight got a triple without falling out at the end! Hoorah! :lol:
A tip I recently learnt from my congress experience was that in the the spin prep, resist the urge to push off your left leg (doing a right hand turn) as it will push you off balance! I had been struggling for ages with falling out of my spins at the end - an issue i see a lot of people doing, and I really couldn't figure out why! (it was driving me crazy!). Turns out, I was pushing off this foot too much (to try and get as much momentum as possible!) which was consequently pushing me off balance as I spun. It should be purely there for support and to put down at the end of the spin, and your shoulders should be where the spin momentum comes from.
I tried in my usual class this week without that extra push and much to my delight got a triple without falling out at the end! Hoorah! :lol:
Brownskin818
Changui
I need to practice spinning (self propelled) with my arms straight up in the air. Do people still spot on those?
I do. I suck at them and won't usually do completely solo spins that way (usually arms-over-head is because I got a led free and I'm too close to the leader to put my arms down) so apply the proverbial grain of salt, but FWIW I use the spot for additional momentum.Brownskin818 said:
Regarding the bent-knee debate, I tend to push up and straighten slightly after the prep (as J&A describes) as it works better for me, but I see lots of very accomplished spinners with their knees quite bent. I wonder whether this may also be a matter of preference.
You should spot on all types of turns or spins, if you bring your arms above your head make sure they are directly over your centre, if they are slighly forward you will be more likely to loose balance.
If you practice something long enough you can still do something well even with poor technique. Take spotting, there are a few girls who can turn very well without spotting, but you would never teach it and it would take you twice as long to learn how to turn.
lastly the chances of becoming world class with poor technique are slim, take Emily (Junior & Emily), Magna, both the girls have good technique and are world renound for their spins and both do not over bend their knees.
Maybe if the girls who spin very well with bent legs had learnt the correct technique at the beginning maybe they would spin even better, but we will probably never know.
Bad technique will always show more on free spins as the leader can always help the follower.
Learning good technique will mean that you will learn quicker and you will get the best out of your ability!
If you practice something long enough you can still do something well even with poor technique. Take spotting, there are a few girls who can turn very well without spotting, but you would never teach it and it would take you twice as long to learn how to turn.
lastly the chances of becoming world class with poor technique are slim, take Emily (Junior & Emily), Magna, both the girls have good technique and are world renound for their spins and both do not over bend their knees.
Maybe if the girls who spin very well with bent legs had learnt the correct technique at the beginning maybe they would spin even better, but we will probably never know.
Bad technique will always show more on free spins as the leader can always help the follower.
Learning good technique will mean that you will learn quicker and you will get the best out of your ability!
this week i'm working on
control generally in all of my turns
double left into double right hand turn
NY prep single and double, right and left turns whcih were fine until i've had to relearn my technique.....and now suck
perfecting my inside and reverse turns to maintain my balance allt he way through.
control generally in all of my turns
double left into double right hand turn
NY prep single and double, right and left turns whcih were fine until i've had to relearn my technique.....and now suck
perfecting my inside and reverse turns to maintain my balance allt he way through.
azzey
Son Montuno
MacMoto said:
The reason is bending the knees helps with upper body stability. The better you get at controlling your upper body posture including arms etc and remain balanced the more you can straighten your legs but never to the point where they are actually locked.
People who are taller often have problems with stability when learning spins and so are told to bend their knees more than a shorter person who may have less problems. It is individual. A tall person could be a fantastic spinner with straighter legs as long as they have great posture, balance and technique and vice versa.
azzey
Son Montuno
I haven't had time to read this and the posts in the other thread yet but:
Mac: In my experience from watching thousands of video clips the majority of great spinners free spin in a CBL by doing multiple pivots. They're just very tight and clean.
Now I don't know if you remember an exercise that Sandra used to teach in her Spin Workshop where we do multiple pivots from one side of the room to the other in a straight line? I did the workshop as a follower and completed the exercise when many followers couldn't. I would expect this exercise would help significantly to improve your travelling free spins.
I've been doing a similar exercise in my dancing recently but moving in a circle rotating around the follower.
If you need help with the launch part of the free let me know when you're next in town and I'll practice it with you and assist where I can.
Mac: In my experience from watching thousands of video clips the majority of great spinners free spin in a CBL by doing multiple pivots. They're just very tight and clean.
Now I don't know if you remember an exercise that Sandra used to teach in her Spin Workshop where we do multiple pivots from one side of the room to the other in a straight line? I did the workshop as a follower and completed the exercise when many followers couldn't. I would expect this exercise would help significantly to improve your travelling free spins.
I've been doing a similar exercise in my dancing recently but moving in a circle rotating around the follower.
If you need help with the launch part of the free let me know when you're next in town and I'll practice it with you and assist where I can.
MacMoto said:
It could be that she doesn't really know what she does, as alot of good dancers don't, going back to the fact that good dancers don't always know how to teach or maybe your legs were completely straight or locked and she was getting you to bend them slightly.
The problem with bending your knees is that you have to compensate by sitting back, otherwise you weight is too far forward.
Try this exersize, bend your knees then try a double, you will have to work harder (use more energy) to keep your weight in the centre. You may feel more stable initially because yes you are more grounded. now try the same double with your legs just slightly flexed so that they are not locked and keep good posture, you will find that you don't have to work so hard to keep your balance in the centre.
Obviously you will need to be able to spin at least a double to try the exersize, so because there is less work to keep the balance you can use the extra power to turn faster an execute more turns.
Height doesn't have too much too do with it, my partner is 6 foot in heels and can execute 3 or 4 spins on her own, and she is quick.
J&A said:
Actually I think azzey nailed this one: it's individual. I had a spinning lesson with Magna as well and she had me straighten slightly from what I'd been doing. Maybe I started with too much of a bend and MacMoto started with too little; or maybe my center of gravity is lower than MacMoto's (I'm pretty short), which would make my optimum knee-bend less than hers.
Is that really a problem? It lets you 'sit' into the spin, which is very stable.