the Milton Cobo CBL360

Err I was talking about ET2 timing.
CBL with turn : 2-3-5
catch on 5/6, give her a recovery step on 6, and start leading/moving again on 7-8-1 (full 360 not just 180), finish the CBL on 2-3-5.

on1 it would be :
catch on 7-8, give her a recovery step on 1, and start leading/moving again on 2-3-4, finish the CBL on 5-6-7

So basically I just go for the textbook 360 except that on 7-8-1 ( or 2-3-4 ) I do a full 360 and not just 180.
 
Could someone explain what's special about how Milton leads these rotations? Something that Rachel80 did not mention in #5?

Also could it be that there is confusion because in "Via" video they use ET2 steps, but break on5 and on1 a lot? To go with the music?


To avoid flamewar by "break" I mean timing of expansion and contraction during rotation. I did not see mentioned that you use this expansion/contraction to generate more energy for rotation. But it's the same in the regular 360 as well? Or not?
 
Smejmoon said:
Could someone explain what's special about how Milton leads these rotations? Something that Rachel80 did not mention in #5?

Also could it be that there is confusion because in "Via" video they use ET2 steps, but break on5 and on1 a lot? To go with the music?
Click to expand...

Milton Cobo uses that kind of "non-standard" movement and timing continuously. He teaches On2 crossbody so that main turn is on1 (LF), as standard way to dance ET2 crossbody is turning mostly on2 (RF).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S5TyvJ-nSk

That also reflects to CBL variations.
 
If Milton Cobo and Oliver Pineda are compared, can any other notice some timing and stress differences? So that Milton tends to stress a lot uneven beats and Oliver tends to stress more even beats?

Milton Cobo: On2 "stress" on uneven beats
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=311McqUBWI8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gehvE0HnyF8

Oliver Pineda: On2 "stress" on even beats
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5No83PUjoSw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksN3-8q_eyU
 
Y'all are overthinking this. This is not a "move." They're just moving around in circles, in frame. She's walking in rhythm, he's making anchoring steps in rhythm.

Timing is really not important when you're social dancing this "move". Go around as many as is comfortable, as fast as is comfortable or as slow as you want. It really doesn't matter. If you're learning a choreography for a show piece, then you have a director who has already thought about it and will tell you.

Rachel80 had it just right:

Rachel80 said:
1. Lock the follow in place with your frame. This means you need to be standing straight and tall, and you basically scoop her into the move.
3. Both you and the follow turn around a central axis. You don't turn around her, nor does she turn around you.
Click to expand...

In practice, no leader is thinking "have I gotten to 540 yet? am I at 1080? or was it 720?"
 
mambomojack said:
Y'all are overthinking this. This is not a "move." They're just moving around in circles, in frame. She's walking in rhythm, he's making anchoring steps in rhythm.
Click to expand...

Welcome to Salsaforums, Mambomojack!

Great post here and hope to see more posts from you like this. :)
 
mambomojack said:
Y'all are overthinking this. This is not a "move." They're just moving around in circles, in frame. She's walking in rhythm, he's making anchoring steps in rhythm.
Click to expand...

Sure everything is so easy eh ? Lets just completely dismiss the thread, completely ignore the fact that lots of people found it helpful/interesting/whatever, I mean dancing is just steps ...

Here are the facts : different people have different ways of learning, different abilities, and you way is NOT the only way. The last thing that someone who is having trouble with something wants to hear is "oh you just feel it". It's like ... Yeah thanks Einstein! Imagine if you asked Einstein to explain his stuff, and he would just answer "oh its physics, you know, atoms, just feel it in your head and you'll see the light". How helpful is that? How much would it make you feel like an idiot?

So please, don't dismiss all this. Assume that if people have a discussion about something it may very well be because there IS a point to it. We all have strengths and weaknesses. You may very well be good as physical stuff but you are damn bad at putting yourself in other people's shoes. ... To just completely forget that while you may be good and/or very experienced other people maybe aren't and that what may be easy or obvious to you isn't to others.

So here is my point of view (as the person who opened this thread). I, as other people, have NO natural talent at salsa, or any kind of dancing, sports or anything. Everything I learn takes ten times as much effort for me than for someone talented to get in. And even then I don't do it as well. I have poor muscle control ability, balance and so on, not to mention that I still have some unrecoverable injuries from a motorbike accident in 2005. But hey I still like dancing, and it's nice to connect with a partner, to connect with the music and do some nice stuff.

And guess what? With the help of indications of people who make the move work, namely this thread, I was able to add the move (and YES it is a move) to my repertoire and use it in social dancing. It's not very good yet but I'm getting there and it starts to feel nice.

I'm not saying talented people don't have to work or think to become good, but you have no idea about how much more work is needed for someone who doesn't have the ability to do things well. This includes breaking down moves that are hard to do like this "super 360"...
 
tresto said:
Sure everything is so easy eh ? Lets just completely dismiss the thread, completely ignore the fact that lots of people found it helpful/interesting/whatever, I mean dancing is just steps ...

[..]

I'm not saying talented people don't have to work or think to become good, but you have no idea about how much more work is needed for someone who doesn't have the ability to do things well. This includes breaking down moves that are hard to do like this "super 360"...
Click to expand...

So could you explain to me how this move differs from any other rotation where partners hold frame? I've been looking at this thread and it's going circles. :) And I've been looking at videos and I don't see anything special.

I'm not saying it's easy to pull this move off; many dancers never do that. But at the core these are the same energies that are in the regular CBL, at least that's how CBL was taught to me. The more skill partners have, the better balance the more they can rotate.
 
mambomojack said:
Timing is really not important when you're social dancing this "move".
Click to expand...
Disagree. Maybe not so much while you're in it, but for coming out of it to stay on time (depending on what you're planning on doing; I usually exit it with a CBL). Does the amount of rotation matter? No. Does staying within the slot? Yes.
And yes, it is a "move," regardless of it being moving around in circles. If I do one styling step that's not part of the basic, that's a "move." CBL is a *move,* This is, too.

Milton mostly does it with just stepping, but at 1:13 (in the original example) he changes it for a moment to gain momentum: he steps less. like you said, he does "anchoring steps." going back to timing, however, his anchoring steps and her steps don't need to be in rhythm; depending on the song and how fast the leader is spinning, she might have to walk faster just to keep up.

The leader doesn't even have to walk at first like Milton does here - he can just go into the anchored, skateboard steps (this is the name I know for the move: the skateboard, or skateboarding). He doesn't really do this here, but once a certain momentum is reached, the lead can completely lift one leg off the ground and keep going for as many rotations as is comfortable -- and at that point, he's the axis.

If this aspect was already mentioned earlier in the thread, my bad.
 
Smejmoon said:
So could you explain to me how this move differs from any other rotation where partners hold frame? I've been looking at this thread and it's going circles. :) And I've been looking at videos and I don't see anything special.

I'm not saying it's easy to pull this move off; many dancers never do that. But at the core these are the same energies that are in the regular CBL, at least that's how CBL was taught to me. The more skill partners have, the better balance the more they can rotate.
Click to expand...

Well ... every move consists of some steps in linear or circular direction, so there's nothing special about any move ... If you want to turn 720 degrees (as a couple) during 2 bars, you can do it several ways

For me, this particular way, shown by Milton and some other dancers was challenging just because I almost never see it danced. Was it worth the effort - I don't know. And I don't care. And obviously it was a kind of challenging for some other people on the forum. So we discussed it, like we discussed various other things ... Nothing special about it ...
 
vit said:
Well ... every move consists of some steps in linear or circular direction, so there's nothing special about any move ... If you want to turn 720 degrees (as a couple) during 2 bars, you can do it several ways
Click to expand...

Heh :) I checked where he did two rotations over two bars; he lifts the partner up every time on second rotation, right?
So the trick would be to hold her ribcage with both hands. Useful for 3D leading.
 
Smejmoon said:
The more skill partners have, the better balance the more they can rotate.
Click to expand...

I don't think the actual number is bound by skill necessarily once the lead and follow get the rhythm going. The entry level is easier than spinning in that respect, perhaps to do with the support gained by the shared pivot point. The problem for most is lack of experience of multiple CBL's. In other words opportunities to try.

So I think this kind of training would be good for some:

T&G Salsa School - Whipping Training
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKhmAFcHEXY

Clearly in the video not every couple is as experienced dance wise yet each make a good effort and keep going.

Obviously the more rotation you want the further the follower will have to travel. Full 360/540 requires the follower to step forward on each step following the arc of the lead.
 
Interesting video. I actually think this is super easy and isn't the the source of difficulty. The timing getting into the move is one problem, and turning a swing 180 into a 360 without taking an extra step and releasing into the first beat I think are the bigger challenges. Otherwise all this video does is try to teach frame and get dancers used to centripetal force, something that is fundamental to a bigger salsa class imo.
 
azzey said:
The problem for most is lack of experience of multiple CBL's. In other words opportunities to try.
Click to expand...

I'm just guessing something very cruel is going on after failed CBL in the Scotland.

Seriously though everyone should learn this move, one of the bestest in the salsa.
 
azzey said:
Obviously the more rotation you want the further the follower will have to travel. Full 360/540 requires the follower to step forward on each step following the arc of the lead.
Click to expand...

For me stepping outside start and finish is irrelevant, I can just stand on the right foot and let her walk, I can step on chord beats or once a bar, or do regular LRL-RLR-. There is a guy who does hook turns, while he leads partner around. There was a video of Dorota on the forums. When I danced with her first time, I had a feeling she was cheating. When I looked down she was lazy stepping as well, so we both had one foot planted and expecting the other to walk around. "You are a formidable opponent!" Could not crush her in the shines though.
 
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