I have understood there are differences in naming. In NY On2 figure called "360" turns 540 degrees and "180" turns 360 degrees.
In quite many parts of Europe figure called "360" turns 360 degrees.
the Milton Cobo CBL360
- Thread starter tresto
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I have understood there are differences in naming. In NY On2 figure called "360" turns 540 degrees and "180" turns 360 degrees.
In quite many parts of Europe figure called "360" turns 360 degrees.
Hm, may I then ask if you overlooked the posts here and there for example in the thread? From the start the focus is more towards 360, but then turns towards how to extend them. Also it seems to me that a proper understanding of the 360 move is fundamental to being able to adapt the move for a high degree of rotation.
About the post "here", yes, I noted there were some discussion about turning 180 vs 360 and naming of this move, but found no samples except the link I posted previously. About post "there", I overlooked it. It points to another thread, but it's different move, where he does more turning by "pedaling back" with left foot, which is easier and you can repeat it several bars
I do what is termed as super-360 regularly. I didn't learn it formally but somewhere along the way I started doing it. Therefore it is hard for me to break it down in to an explainable process.
Regarding #3:
Yes that is one way to do it. There are times I will do something like that.
If I correctly observed the posted video Milton is not doing that. I certainly don't do that in my dancing either. Usually I (the leader) is central of axis, and I move the follower around me. It doesn't need follower to have momentum (she can be at standstill or doing only a basic). Sometimes I have done it as a very first move to start the dance. Most often I do it when I am picking follower back up at the end of shines.
It is also very useful if I quickly want to move (protect) my follower away from someone behind her back (about to run into her).
Regarding #3:
Yes that is one way to do it. There are times I will do something like that.
If I correctly observed the posted video Milton is not doing that. I certainly don't do that in my dancing either. Usually I (the leader) is central of axis, and I move the follower around me. It doesn't need follower to have momentum (she can be at standstill or doing only a basic). Sometimes I have done it as a very first move to start the dance. Most often I do it when I am picking follower back up at the end of shines.
It is also very useful if I quickly want to move (protect) my follower away from someone behind her back (about to run into her).
olamalam
Son Montuno
I think this video is a good one to work on as it's without music, with explanation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4k4MHRsexg
see 21th sec.
And in this one there are plenty of examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9srBmEeJjP8
In the second video notice how Milton reaches her far shoulder blade, he's like hugging his partner (couldnt recognise, doesnt seem like Erin) and how she steps small during the whole rotation. Whenever she thinks that it's over and does a back basic step, it breaks the flow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4k4MHRsexg
see 21th sec.
And in this one there are plenty of examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9srBmEeJjP8
In the second video notice how Milton reaches her far shoulder blade, he's like hugging his partner (couldnt recognise, doesnt seem like Erin) and how she steps small during the whole rotation. Whenever she thinks that it's over and does a back basic step, it breaks the flow.
kbitten
Son Montuno
for me, you should not try to antecipate the normal 360 by "collecting" before 6 as you think..
in this video you can see it better :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gehvE0HnyF8#t=36 s
he let the girl finished her spins and catch her on 67 to do normal 360 ( of course this lady's spins are a little "out" of line)
the EXTRA turn come on count 123 when he doesnt let the girl pass straight to the other side, instead he makes her move aroudn him ..think as the same frame/hold you should do when you want a girl to do backspot turn :you change the direction of her step by turning her on 2 and have to keep a good frame to make her advance her right leg on 3 right? thats the same "feeling" for me..you have to hold the lady to make her advance the legs on all the counts you want till you finished rsrs
sweavo
Changui
Though I am just one data point, I believe this is the case, that NY'ers call a 180 what brits call a CBL 360.
I think the issue is whether or not you count the CBL in the number of degrees, since it adds or removes an extra 180 degrees to the whole figure depending on whether you include it or think of it as a separate move going into the 360/180/4352/whatever.
Thank you all for your kind answers.
to opm1s6 : I did do a search before opening a thread. But nowhere did I find anything specific to the Milton Cobo signature move 'super 360' that I could apply in regular on2 social dancing.
The 'regular 360' (that some NYers seem to call 180) is a classic move and I wouldn't be opening a thread about it. It is very well documented on numerous videos and taught in practically every school. While the are variations - I know four different versions from four different great instructors that work equally well - its basic idea, momentum and movement are textbook. For the 'super 360', as very few people do it and even less do it smoothly, some extra knowledge, experience and observations are needed.
I found the answers in this thread very valuable and it seems like kbitten nailed the little thing that makes it doable in regular social dancing : to put the feel of a back spot turn into the end of a 360, adding the extra 180 at the end, meaning 1-2-3 ...
Forcing the follower to add some extra syncopated steps during 6-7-1 seems a little bit too much and can probably only be done with an extra skillful lady ...\
Oh and for the terminology debate, it seems that like two point of view seem equally valid, you don't have to go as far as Europe to get the '360' name for the shortest version (half on 6-7-1 + regular CBL on 2-3-5) :
Shaka Brown calls it like that too.
http://www.salsaforums.com/showpost.php?p=12266&postcount=11
And he seems to really know his stuff.
Some others from Southern California call it 180.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icOKC4knZBA
to opm1s6 : I did do a search before opening a thread. But nowhere did I find anything specific to the Milton Cobo signature move 'super 360' that I could apply in regular on2 social dancing.
The 'regular 360' (that some NYers seem to call 180) is a classic move and I wouldn't be opening a thread about it. It is very well documented on numerous videos and taught in practically every school. While the are variations - I know four different versions from four different great instructors that work equally well - its basic idea, momentum and movement are textbook. For the 'super 360', as very few people do it and even less do it smoothly, some extra knowledge, experience and observations are needed.
I found the answers in this thread very valuable and it seems like kbitten nailed the little thing that makes it doable in regular social dancing : to put the feel of a back spot turn into the end of a 360, adding the extra 180 at the end, meaning 1-2-3 ...
Forcing the follower to add some extra syncopated steps during 6-7-1 seems a little bit too much and can probably only be done with an extra skillful lady ...\
Oh and for the terminology debate, it seems that like two point of view seem equally valid, you don't have to go as far as Europe to get the '360' name for the shortest version (half on 6-7-1 + regular CBL on 2-3-5) :
Shaka Brown calls it like that too.
http://www.salsaforums.com/showpost.php?p=12266&postcount=11
And he seems to really know his stuff.
Some others from Southern California call it 180.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icOKC4knZBA
However, note that Milton's turn at 1:57 of the first video is different from most other examples (except Oliver's on the link I posted). At the end of the part with extra half turn, which is done without helping the turn with the left foot, both he and the lady are making sharp backbreak-like move (just as in regular CBL 360 when done properly), with both legs almost straight, hips out from the common center and bodies leaning forward, before making CBL exit. This makes it harder than other examples (which are more or less continuous turning) and probably can't be done that way without lady doing some extra steps, so it is hard to do with most ladies (at least in my venue). Other examples are easier to do
Report back!
I'm not convinced by this explanation, kbitten.
The thing is that by the time you get to beat 1 (assuming throughout this post that we're dancing on 2), the man is supposed to be opened out, and the move is supposed to finish with a regular CBL - whether you're doing a "regular 360" or a "super 360".
I suspect it might feel like something funny is happening on 123 from the follower's perspective though, because looking through the videos, the girls feet are doing their "123" footwork a little behind the beat.
I notice that in a couple of the examples in the Milton videos (i.e. at 2:09 on the Japan video, and at 0:38 in the Big Apple video), the super 360 turn finishes a beat late, so that the girl ends up stepping on 234 for her CBL to catch up. (In the Oliver & Luda video in the on2 examples, they finish bang on 1 every time). In practice, this seems to be because in all the examples, the men are leading the turn with a left foot hook. The man's foot lands on 1 still hooked (or slightly ahead of the beat some of the time), and the bodies take a fraction of a second to "catch up" and open out - which will affect the timing of the woman's footsteps. In the Japan video at 1:57, Milton's left foot lands just ahead of 1, and Isabel follows stepping on 123. At 2:09, his left foot lands on 1, and Isabel follows stepping on 234. (In the Oliver video, the turns happen so fast that the delay is a fraction of a beat, and isn't noticable).
I think the key to making a regular 360 into a super 360 seems to be a combination of extra turning at the start (i.e. on 67) and if necessary at the end (on 12). In most of the examples of super 360s given here, Milton and Oliver aren't taking any steps on 67, so their turn is starting on 5. It doesn't mean they're "collecting" the women any earlier - whether you're doing a regular or super version, I'm pretty sure the lead is supposed to put his right hand on her back while it's turned away on 5, and let her finish her turn/spin by 6 moving her left arm up to his shoulder. In a regular 360, (as far as I've been taught), the lead steps his left foot in place on 6, swinging onto his right foot on 7. If he swings onto his right foot on 5, then even if it takes a beat for the girl to finish her spin, the shared turn still gets a "head start" over the regular 360.
I think that there's another possibility for extending the 360 for similar effect. (It was my first guess for how to do the move - and it's hard to tell, but I think Milton is using it some of the time in the Japan video e.g. at 2:47). This version DOES involve the man stepping on 67 - but hooking his left foot behind his right on 6, rather than stepping in place. That would also give the couple the extra rotation to fit in an extra 180 degrees by beat 1. Just practicing by myself, I notice that I can step out the turn like this and swing the whole way round by beat 1, even without a partner's momentum to help.
I'm sure someone will be along shortly to explain what I've missed in my blow-by-blow analysis of these videos - but in the meantime, I hope it furthers the discussion of this cool and interesting move
p.s. One other thing I noticed in all of the "super 360" examples in these videos is that (as vit said earlier) the women are doing extra steps to get around every time. Which probably means that the move would only really work where the followers know what to expect and what to do to get round in time....
It does only work "really" well if they know, but it still works otherwise, as the move forces their footwork for them to keep up. Note, however, that while a beginner may be able to follow it, because of the momentum and such it can be scary --- if they just go with the flow it works well, but if they're afraid of tripping whatever else, they get worried and that's where things mess up. The hardest part for them isn't getting into it, but staying in it and coming out of it properly. All the intermediate women I've done this with have done it rather well, even without necessarily following it before.
On video with Oliver & Luda, she is making it using only 3 steps and he is dead on the rhythm (which is probably connected, because he swings his left leg around realy fast, so she can get around him with relatively long steps). This demo is really great, lots of energy and usage of momentum
Also checked some social dancing videos I have with the guy I mentioned. In that case, girls are always doing extra steps. He always preceded this "super 360" with ladies double (or triple) inside turn - maybe this is the trick, because she is doing half beat steps during that spins and I suppose proceeding into this turn continuing syncopated steps is a kind of natural for her. Of course, his "super 360" turns in social dancing are not as good as when he was demonstrating the same move with both of his partners (and obviously rehearsed it previously, like Oliver I suppose). On the other side, I didn't find a video with Oliver doing this socially at all
I can believe that, just didn't find the video. This demo seems to be from Rome, '07 (there is also a video of the class on youtube, but he taught ordinary cbl 360 on it) and I checked 6-7 social dancing videos of him after that year.
This move is a bit tricky to do socially exactly this way
This move is a bit tricky to do socially exactly this way
next time you go to his on2 class?? whaaaa???
you lucky (**(&**&!! lol! 
anyway, its really interesting how captivating this moves seems to be as there's a thread started once a yr on it. there are many versions of the super " overturn CBL" (there's a new name opm,:eyebrow
. the most basic version, as mentioned before, is simply a 1/2 turn continuation on the same right foot pivot as referenced in the original video. the second version is at 0:53 sec shown below:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLWzyunZanc&NR=1
this version is even more fascinating.