The Definition of Sabor!

[terence]

Not only should these people be there, they should be bringing their students. Back in the day, by all accounts, there were Latin bands playing in NY left, right and centre. .

Thats exactly what we did.. take them to venues, with "live " bands ( the only choice ! ) .

By the way, the bands, were mainly in the " centre " ( a few of the members ,were around the edges )

 

[DJ Yuca]

DJ Yuca, you make a few interesting points. I've bolded what I took to be the main ones. Some of them are contradictory (first you said events like Taino Towers and other live music events need support, then that they don't). But I'll try to address your main points one by one, as I interpret them (maybe we need a new thread...). Keep in mind that while I have taken classes with several instructors, my perspective may be somewhat skewed given that most of my classes nowadays are with just one.

1. NY instructors need to go to Puerto Rican (PR)/other Latino events to educate themselves.

In my opinion, the majority of the "reputable" NY instructors have been exposed to plenty of PR dancing and, in fact, many of them are indeed PR (my main teacher for example) and know the culture, including the dancing, intimately, and emphasize the importance of musicality in their classes. Further, a few of them travel regularly to PR.

I do agree that for those instructors who have never had any contact with PR/Nuyorican dancing, spending time at these events would be great. Personally, I would not take classes with any instructor (NY or elsewhere) who has no connection to, nor desire to experience, Boricua dance and music events.

2. NY instructors (and their students) need to support live music events in NY.

Live music events in NY are well attended, both by salsa scene regulars and the general population. Several of my fellow students go to concerts regularly. So these live events do not need any additional support.

3. NY instructors should encourage their students to attend events such as Taino Towers and even organize "field trips" with them because otherwise these students will not get acquainted with these types of events. Therefore NY instructors are guilty of not giving their students the chance to experience the dancing at these events.

In theory, I agree that all salsa students (NY and elsewhere) should get exposed to these types of events. However, you are assuming that NY salsa students have no idea about these events, and if only their teacher told them about them, they would all go. This is not the case. First of all, a lot of salsa students in NY are themselves of latino heritage (PR or others). A lot of them live in Harlem. In fact, the Santo Rico school is located only a couple of blocks from Taino Towers. But guess how many SR students I've seen at Taino? You're right, zero.

My point is that a lot of students know about these events. But they choose not to go. And I highly doubt that if instructors went on and on about Taino Towers more students would go. As the saying goes, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. Just like I know about this event, others do as well, or could find out if they did a quick inquiry among their friends or online.

The reasons they don't go and probably wouldn't even if their teacher encouraged them to (unless a lot of their peers suddenly went) are complex. A few that come to mind are:

• Unfamiliar territory--they don't know anyone there and the majority of the people at Taino are older than the average salsa student. Unless a lot of their peers went as well, a lot of students don't have the confidence to show up to such an event without being intimidated.
• Time conflicts--a lot of salsa classes (including my main instructor's) take place at the same time as the Taino event on Wednesdays.
• They are content with the events they already attend--if they are happy dancing with their friends at the other socials and concerts, why would they go out of their way to an event where they don't know any of the regulars?

In addition, I would hypothesize that even if some students did go to these types of events, they would only try them once and then stick to their regular social dancing because they prefer the higher energy type of dancing (note, not necessarily less musical, as in NY you can have high energy dances that are musical). Slower, groovier dancing is not everyone's cup of tea. There will probably be nights when I myself will not feel in the mood for the PR style of dancing, but for a somewhat more energetic dance night.


Also, people don't generally do what they are told, they do what they want. And many people need to go through certain phases in their dancing before they can appreciate the type of dancing that is in my video. Frankie, for example, talks about this in La Epoca and says that young people often have a need to get "it" out of their system through energetic dancing, and as they become more skilled and more perceptive to the music, they can express more with less. I think that's very true. You can't rush anyone's journey for them, they have to get to that level themselves.

1. Fair point - however the fact remains: it appears to me (as an outsider, so I don't really have hard facts to go on) that there is a big divergence between the Taino T event and the 'scene' events. I think it would have a positive impact on the latter if it forged closer ties with the former.

2. I disagree. I occasionally visit a forum for Latin musicians, which includes many pros and former pros. People who, back in the day, were playing with the big names in mambo and salsa are now struggling - or more likely completely failing - to get paid work. Likewise younger musicians who have studied for years to reach a similar level. Many are and/or were residents of NYC. Yes TP's former band are still playing out, and so are the likes of Orlando Marin, however others who were good enough to play in bands of this calibre then, simply cannot make a living from music any more. At best, they get a gig where they're paid in beer! (Might sound great - to someone who's never tried to earn a living from music.)

Tastes change, and NY is a lot less Puerto Rican dominated (in terms of ethnic composition) than it used to be, so it's not the fault of the salsa scene. Nonetheless, with all this interest in Latin dance, it's terrible that more pro-level Latin musicians are not benefitting.

3. I agree, however, as you state, if a lot of their peers went, so would many of the students. Their peers will start going when the instructors start going. As stated earlier, I believe this would have a positive effect on 'the scene'. And what happens in NY and at congresses is what the rest of the salsa scene (obviously not so much the Cuban scene or people in S America) attempts to emulate.

At the same time, what you have said does make sense.

 

[wildbill20056]

2. I disagree. I occasionally visit a forum for Latin musicians, which includes many pros and former pros. People who, back in the day, were playing with the big names in mambo and salsa are now struggling - or more likely completely failing - to get paid work.....

As you say tastes change, when the 'pop' charts were strongly occupied by latin music, mambo, boogaloo, etc there was a vastly larger audience. Whilst there is a huge interest in salsa dance etc, we shouldn't confuse this with having either the man power or the purchasing power of the audience for so called 'mainstream' music.

Music is just like that, you have to make hay while the sun shines, and if that hay isn't going to pay your pension then you either need plan B, or you need to constantly evolve, or a mixture of both as bad fortune can scupper the best 'evolvers' and 'planners.' Musicians weren't being paid so great even in the 'good old days,' and that's true of most musicians of that era. There are chart topping, blockbuster music producing musicians of the mid to early 20th century, who ended up as plumbers etc etc.

Given this I don't think that, even were we to see the revolution in favour of live music, we all desire, that it would suddenly generate sufficient paid employment for all the musicians who might deserve the support. Thus to me, it just isn't safe, to lay the blame for the diminished pool of working musicians on the salsa dancers of today. They can help, and I hope they will, but can never solve the problem of being a niche interest supporting a cadre of musicians from the time of mass popularity.

3. I agree, however, as you state, if a lot of their peers went, so would many of the students. Their peers will start going when the instructors start going. As stated earlier, I believe this would have a positive effect on 'the scene'. And what happens in NY and at congresses is what the rest of the salsa scene (obviously not so much the Cuban scene or people in S America) attempts to emulate.

At the same time, what you have said does make sense.

And the NY congress prominently promotes live music. Sabrosura tells us there are conflicts between class times and Taino towers for example. As much as I absolutely encourage scheduling sympathetically to your scene, in NY I suspect that's nearly impossible given the sheer concentration of quality instruction, music and performance. So you just have to do your best.

 

[azzey]

I think one of the amazing aspects of latin dance partaken of in this way is that whilst it takes years on years to master the movement and sabor and musical intimacy..

This is one of those big fallacies that some instructors keep churning out without thought to the damage they're doing.

Disagree that it takes years to gain Sabor and some essence of the music. Most of the people who have Sabor had it when they were a beginner too, at some level.

The young couple bouncing around at 2:38s in the first video have 'it'.
They've got the Charanga rhythm and are expressing that as movement and the girl has Sabor, even if the movement's a *little* exaggerated.

It's just the kind of feeling that most beginner classes try to beat out of you with a stick. lol.

 

[azzey]

He does have a strong tendency to do this when social dancing. Makes me wonder how that is, especially considering he's one of my favourite performers and his choreos are consistently creative and - yes, musical.

Maybe he needs to be given the song and a bit of time to choreograph it before the social dance.

 

[azzey]

I've asked mods to move the thread back to the Just Dance section.

Yeah I tried that, how's it working for you? Hehe.

 

[azzey]

Also, the more I dance at Taino Towers the less I can enjoy the pattern monkey type of dances (which are rare in NY, but they do exist--had one the other night with a guy who was visiting from England--yes, it was exactly like what I had written before about English "style"). I try, I really do try to enjoy them, but it's hard when I know that all the guy would have to do to improve the dance 100% is to just slow down and enjoy the music.

Ha, I'm English and I can dance like that Cuban in the first clip. If it's Charanga then it would be my preference. Just depends on the music and what mood I'm in. I do like a bit of flash-n-trash now and again but I really love dancing with the music over everything else regardless of style.

Maybe there's hope for us dancing yet.

 

[Sabrosura]

Yeah I tried that, how's it working for you? Hehe.

Not successful. And by the way it is also forbidden to discuss this on the forum, we can only discuss it in PMs with the mods.

 

[azzey]

Yep.. breaks on 2.. I have, however, seen it danced on 1 .

He wasnt dancing completely " Son " , but a blended style . Thats what I like.. (fits in better, with most followers ) .

The larger problem is, hearing music which is " traditional " Son being played. Most DJs wont entertain it. I do "spin " some ,on the odd occasion, if I get the chance, and the dancers are receptive .Still, the more modern Son song styles, are pretty good for a change of pace ( Monguito and Conjunto Criollo has some nice stuff for e.g.) .

Yeah I do a blended style too. We get some Son played here.

 

[Sabrosura]

Ha, I'm English and I can dance like that Cuban in the first clip.

Maybe there's hope for us dancing yet.

You're one of the special ones.

 

[azzey]

Not successful. And by the way it is also forbidden to discuss this on the forum, we can only discuss it in PMs with the mods.

We shall need a codename for it, like you've been 'modded'.

 

[azzey]

Actually, Sabrosura's video is a great litmus test for those who are not sure what musicality is. Because if after watching the video, they still don't see it, then they should question the quality of instruction they are getting and/or contemplate the possiblity that perhaps salsa is not for them at their current state of musical understanding, which would mean that they could either give up or better, attempt to put a lot more efffort in their salsa journey by surrounding themselves with musical people and taking classes from competent salsa instructors.

It's kinda a litmus test for Sabor. Those that have Sabor (in some amount) can see it, those that can't don't.

It matters little your preference for dancing to fast or slow music or whether you like to add spins or not. If you don't see something then you're probably missing the point.

 

[wildbill20056]

This is one of those big fallacies that some instructors keep churning out without thought to the damage they're doing.

Disagree that it takes years to gain Sabor and some essence of the music. Most of the people who have Sabor had it when they were a beginner too, at some level.

The young couple bouncing around at 2:38s in the first video have 'it'.
They've got the Charanga rhythm and are expressing that as movement and the girl has Sabor, even if the movement's a *little* exaggerated.

It's just the kind of feeling that most beginner classes try to beat out of you with a stick. lol.

I totally disagree. Most people when they start have at best an aquaintance with the music, I can honestly say that in now what has been hundred's of students through my doors only a minority have had an instant or quick 'love affair' with the music.

It takes time to learn true appreciation and feeling for the music, otherwise everyone at the beginner level would be confused with latinos, and that is patently not the case.

Those with an instant, instinctive response will certainly conserve that feeling to inform their self expression, feeling and 'sabor,' but imo you certainly don't come with a fully informed sense of true sensitivity to the music.

You're also making the assumption that young = no experience, which I think is unsafe. Sabor to me is true sensitivity to the culture and the music, which is then expressed in movement. To have a feel for the rhythms, breaks, percussive elements and melodic traditions to me is something that takes time.

P.S. I'd also contend that in the sabor stakes that couple are way down on the average level you're seeing throughout that video. They have almost no interpersonal connection and appear to just be bouncing up and down to the music. Exaggerated? I call it 'dad dancing' to latin music They seem happy about it though, so fair play to them!

Just as you might have an instantly pleasurable response to hearing a great piece of classical music. To truly appreciate it you need to know it intimately, and that only comes with time, dedication and passion.

 

[azzey]

I totally disagree. Most people when they start have at best an aquaintance with the music, I can honestly say that in now what has been hundred's of students through my doors only a minority have had an instant or quick 'love affair' with the music.

It takes time to learn true appreciation and feeling for the music, otherwise everyone at the beginner level would be confused with latinos, and that is patently not the case.

Those with an instant, instinctive response will certainly conserve that feeling to inform their self expression, feeling and 'sabor,' but imo you certainly don't come with a fully informed sense of true sensitivity to the music.

You're also making the assumption that young = no experience, which I think is unsafe. Sabor to me is true sensitivity to the culture and the music, which is then expressed in movement. To have a feel for the rhythms, breaks, percussive elements and melodic traditions to me is something that takes time.

P.S. I'd also contend that in the sabor stakes that couple are way down on the average level you're seeing throughout that video. They have almost no interpersonal connection and appear to just be bouncing up and down to the music. Exaggerated? I call it 'dad dancing' to latin music They seem happy about it though, so fair play to them!

Just as you might have an instantly pleasurable response to hearing a great piece of classical music. To truly appreciate it you need to know it intimately, and that only comes with time, dedication and passion.

So in your opinion how many years of study is required to have Sabor? 10? 20?

This is where you and me disagree. I truly disagree that you can put this minimum time limit on having Sabor. I also disagree somewhat with your definition of Sabor. Sabor is not about library learning of music, or learning some cultures way of dancing but about FEELING, about having flavour with the music. I've certainly danced with beginners who had it.

You are also getting confused with what BorikenSalsero called a Crioll (sp?) and Sabor. A Crioll is an authentic latin way of dancing.

 

[Sabrosura]

P.S. I'd also contend that in the sabor stakes that couple are way down on the average level you're seeing throughout that video. They have almost no interpersonal connection and appear to just be bouncing up and down to the music. Exaggerated? I call it 'dad dancing' to latin music They seem happy about it though, so fair play to them!

I think that young couple were the only non-latinos there that night. When I saw them it was immediately apparent to me that they a) were not latino, and b) couldn't dance.

But they certainly seemed to be enjoying themselves.

 

[wildbill20056]

So in your opinion how many years of study is required to have Sabor? 10? 20?

This is where you and me disagree. I truly disagree that you can put this minimum time limit on having Sabor. I also disagree somewhat with your definition of Sabor. Sabor is not about library learning of music, or learning some cultures way of dancing but about FEELING, about having flavour with the music. I've certainly danced with beginners who had it.

You are also getting confused with what BorikenSalsero called a Crioll (sp?) and Sabor. A Crioll is an authentic latin way of dancing.

It is of course impossible to be a defined time on any such issue. Tis like any aspect of dance, some folks will have a natural affinity which speeds them on the way; however constant exposure and passion/hard work often means those who are slower to develop end up the better exponents ultimately.

I believe there is a 'minimum time' in so far as some exposure and time to appreciate what is being experienced is required. To me sabor is not just 'a feeling' it's a particular style of feeling, it's not just spice! It's latin spice. Beginners, especially those with more musical background/natural musical appreciation can of course approach this, but in my opinion it takes time to develop your responses to the music, and your partner. Just as a great athlete might be a naturally great runner, it takes time to develop the instinct to win a race.

Further I believe general 'feeling' and 'sabor' are related but not synomymous. Enthusiasm and passion are essential tools to finding sabor, but real 'latin spice' in your dancing is not something you're born with, it's something you build on top of your natural instincts.

Otherwise that young couple being very happy and enthusiastic would equal the others on that dancefloor in sabor filled dancing, and it seems apparent to me, and others, that this isn't the case.

Of course this is very subjective, and a matter of personal opinion.

P.S. If you said they are dancing with enthusiasm, then sure I'd be on board. But a) they aren't connecting with each other and b) they are bouncing up and down to the music. I don't see much latin spice in this process.

 

[Sabrosura]

Sabor is not about library learning of music, or learning some cultures way of dancing but about FEELING, about having flavour with the music. I've certainly danced with beginners who had it.

Agree that the feel for the music is not always directly proportional with one's dance experience, although it often is in the case of people who had no exposure to Latin music before starting salsa dancing.

But, having seen that couple dancing (live), to me they didn't have much sabor.

 

[SnowDancer]

I'd be happy to take you. I organized a "field trip" there with the SFers that came to the NY congress this year, we saw Orlando Marin, it was great.

One of my favorite nights of that whole trip!

 

[DJ Ara]

It's kinda a litmus test for Sabor. Those that have Sabor (in some amount) can see it, those that can't don't.

That is exactly it!

Some disciplines involve certain concepts that cannot be seen easily, unless one practices and gains the skills. A few on the other hand will comprehend these at first difficult methodologies and ideas.

For example, the idea of "soft" beats "hard (strength)" in kung fu is not understood by many so called "kung fu" practioners of considerable experience, yes even teachers, specially the "scientific" types. Hence mentioning that concept to a person who claims kung fu experience becomes a litmus test when in less than a minute one knows if they are real or just quacks.

Luckily, salsa has its own litmus tests, which for years have enabled me to see through all the BS that is dished out by many salsa professionals out there! As you can guess, after a while the results stop being hilariously funny anymore, and begin to reflect the sad situation in some segments of the global salsa scene.

It matters little your preference for dancing to fast or slow music or whether you like to add spins or not. If you don't see something then you're probably missing the point.

+1

Which means people should use litmus tests like this to see shortcoming in their salsa education and to perhaps look at alternative sources of knowledge.

 

[SnowDancer]

Yow! I used to worry about being on-time, and now I have to also worry about having sabor! But nobody can teach it to you; and worrying about it makes it nearly impossible. So how does one break the cycle? Tequila?