Technique vs Musicality/Sabor

[salsera_alemana]

The *amazing* thing to me is that in that clip Tito is indistinguishable, in principal, from any number of modern big name salsa dancers that have come up in this thread to be disparaged ie Shaka Brown.

You cannot be serious, wildbill! There are worlds of difference between Tito and Shaka... You should not even compare them.

I just wish Shaka (and Magna for that matter) would just do a normal basic step every now and then. Seems like they have just transcended it and now just stand there... this is not a good trend.

It'd be a simple fix actually but would require them to relearn (or maybe return to) some of the fundamentals before adding all the jazz which I personally like but only when they are applied musically and the foundations are there (like a proper basic step and weight transfer). If I am just standing there (literally) spinning the girl and taking a few steps to spin her again in some other creative way, it's not good.

Totally agree! That was exactly my point of criticism many pages ago with Shaka, Milton C. and Co. I am so glad some people understand... SB doesn't step, i.e. dance salsa. He just goes from point A to point B, spins the girl, goes back from point B to point A or maybe to point C, stands there, then adds a shine, then positions his foot to point ... you name it.

Also, the way he moves his feet and body looks awkward at times, so "non Latino".

I disagree.

I think you miss the point they are making. Tito steps almost continuously, whereas Shaka does not. Shaka pivots, stops, tippy-toes, half-steps.. only less than half are real steps with proper weight transfer. You can see this from his legs. Pick any Shaka video and he's pretty much the same in that respect.

So for me, they are miles apart.

Totally agree!

In the same way that Cuban salsa basic steps and cross-body basic steps are often miles apart in implementation. Tito has more a Cuban feel to the way he moves (he's moving continuously for a start) and I think that's one of the aspects that they're alluding to that they like as "authentic".

Tito does not have a Cuban feel to me. He is a very elegant and sophisticated boricua style dancer! He oozes that sabor boricua!!! In PR and also in Orlando, FL, you find many dancers who move like Tito and have that sabor and elegance that he shows in this video! "Moving continuously" should be the standard, not the exception! For me it is part of the basics of salsa! And that is exactly what you see when you see Puerto Ricans dance!!!

Next time my teacher chastises me for stopping my feet when performing a pattern, I'm going to tell him that I am using my dynamic momentum and balance and using less emphasis than he is and that he should get with the program

LOL!

There comes a point where you reduce the foundations so much that it's not even recognizable. You can also just walk around and perform all these patterns and then dance it to any type of music. Most dances are using the same archetypal patterns anyways. There are only so many things two people can do in synchronous. What makes salsa distinct? The stepping.

If you remove basic cuban motion from salsa, you end up with just pattern work to salsa music and the essence is lost. The main emphasis for students should be on the basic step and weight transfers. You can't get to an advanced level without perfecting this.

The reason why Shaka doesn't move his shoulders or shimmy is not because he is not being inspired by 'the lyrics'. It's because he isn't doing cuban motion and so his ribcage isn't moving. He's mostly standing and just walking from spot to spot. Try standing and moving your shoulders... it's not natural. Now do cuban motion and watch how they naturally sway. All it takes is a little push to really bring your body to life and for it to be expressive and satisfying even when just doing the basics. If shaka stepped correctly, he would shimmy and move his shoulders a lot more.

Exactly!

 

[DJ Ara]

.
(Which I must say was still mystifying me after 100 or so pages of "hah! salsa dancers of all styles are crap, unless they learn to step like Cali dancers").

There you again by deliberately trying to distort the message. I speak of core countries as sources of research and authentic reference all over this thread. I have provided examples of Cuban, P.R. and Cali styles on multiple occasions, including three posts back when conversing with Wildbill, yet you come out with a the above comment?

There have been a lot of important issues covered in this thread and a many interesting and educational videos posted. A lot of important and relevant information has been provided by people of decades of experience, a lot of which can be described by the phrase, " the inconvenient truth" .

Yet, people like you, try to just simplify dozens of pages of relevant discussion and hours spent on writing important texts into, "Aw, he says Cali style is better than all the rest". When I am always mentioning other styles and giving examples of them as well!

Well, I am sure that people see through your transparent attempts to sabotage what is being said. The only ones who will believe your fantasy take on the issues discussed here are the same ones who have lacked the attention span to accompany this thread in an intelligent manner, while drawing clueless conclusions and bringing them up in the safety of OTHER threads. These are probably the people who don't have the attention span to dance a single salsa song without turning, spinning and generally going into a unrelated (to the music) clown act.

So yes, some people here would believe your false conclusion regarding this thread, if they had not - out of their own insecurity and hopelessly lacking knowledge - drawn them already long before your post above.

 

[tresto]

If you remove basic cuban motion from salsa, you end up with just pattern work to salsa music and the essence is lost.

They call it "dancing with the stars", when they do "the salsa"

 

[terence]

You cannot be serious, wildbill! There are worlds of difference between Tito and Shaka... You should not even compare them.


SB doesn't step, i.e. dance salsa. He just goes from point A to point B,


In PR and also in Orlando, FL, you find many dancers who move like Tito and have that sabor and elegance that he shows in this video! "Moving continuously" should be the standard, not the exception!

For me it is part of the basics of salsa! And that is exactly what you see when you see Puerto Ricans dance!!!

1.. Completely and totally different styles .

2.. Thats the same impression I get .

3.. Hes not exactly unique as one may think.. but he does exemplify the " style " .

4.. Thats the very reason I took up that style ,for dancing and teaching .

 

[kbitten]

The guy with the glasses is a personal friend of mine and he has been dancing salsa since the early 2000s. The lady is also has been dancing since the 1990s. I am a personal friend of her's since the 1999, when I was first introduced to her. She has been to Cuba, Puerto Rico and Cali. The last two on multiple occasions. She has a great salsa music collection and DJs sometimes. She has also taught salsa - including at least one Cali Style workshop, and that was in 2003, if memory serves me correctly.

The lady is also a competent samba and tango dancer. I believe that she used to dance these before she was introduced to salsa, leading her to travel to Cali in the 1990s. She is very versatile and happily dances various styles of salsa, depending on who she is dancing with.

The man with the glasses is also a guy I know personally (a great guy) has also been to Puerto Rico once and to Cali on multiple occassions.

I think you may be mixing them up with someone else?

The level of a dancer is not based in how many years he/she has been dancing. About the lady whats her name cause i know all salsa GOOD teachers and i dont remember her.the fact that she dances samba and tango means nothing , cause you should know that here everybody dances evrything, except the tango dancers who live in their own world. The fact that they have been to core countries like you say, doesnt necessarily means they have some sort of DANCE proficiency above others who havent been there.

Even when someone decide to do just basic, one can see the level. So, your friends are beginners no matter how long they have been dancing or how many tines they went to cali rsrs if is their will to dance like this or their limitation, let's not dig into this.

So, to make thing clear, vamos dar nome aos bois. Look at berlin salsa congress, take the big names of their line up, and tell us who do you think has no clue about ypur stepping thing.

Sorry about mistakes, letter r from my note is broken and dont like typing pn the phone

 

[wildbill20056]

For you to have 'cogent' experience in salsa, you need to be a SALSERO! Then you will understand the applications of whatever it is you know, to the actual music - meaning that you don't critique dancers who are infinitely better than you on the world wide web!

No I'm sorry Terence and other 'qualified' dance professionals (you are not a dance professional, you are a music professional) can make such statements. The rest you need to step away from. Take some dance lessons, then we can speak.

Being a real SALSERO and a professional of considerable experience enables me to recognize the fake salsa gurus from a mile off!
Yours and Jag's technical 'underpinnings' mean nothing when at least one of you was drooling over some woman's ability to spin 50 times in a row.

You're a salsero who understands next to nothing of the technical underpinnings of all of the styles you idolize. It's a problem.

The proof is in the application, wether it is dancing, where the application is to the music, or wether it is in something like karate, where there are many who could give you a headache about their technical knowledge, but who could not apply their technique in a real situation, or even to fight their way out of wet paper bag.

And yet those without solid technique are doomed to be failed martial artists. What's your point? A sensei who did not have comprehensive knowledge of the mechanics of his/her discipline would be a poor excuse.

By the way, feel free to fly to Cali, Cuba or Puerto rico and impress the Barrio dancers with your technical 'underpinnings' and then see these guys and their 9 year old kids dance circles around you.

Oh be quiet. Really what sort of forum do you think you are speaking on? Take this sort of attitude elsewhere where it's welcomed.

Ask the same career dancer to dance SALSA like the following then he will not find it so easy:

Starting at 5:22
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-rfALGSjhM

A modified Cuban Rumba: highly technical requiring years of training.

Here are about 60 people on one stage in Cali doing better quality salsa steps then your example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLxQirhD9Uw

Here are the 9 year old kiddies from Cali:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3uc4l1FckM&feature=related

Highly technical requiring years of training. Also choreographed to hell!

Cuba:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS58jwxQPFg&feature=related

And a choreo'd Rueda nice. Also requiring extensive training.

This is the stuff that separates the men from the boys and the pseudo salsa parody dancers from the real McCoys!

If you think that your example's (in the video you posted) stepping was better than one single dancer in any of the above videos, then please point him or her out!

By the way, here is some Cuban dancing from what looks like somewhere in Europe, probably Spain and look at their stepping:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4dEEpea1yM&feature=related

Wow you compare performance choreo'd performances Nice.

Further you're comparing semi professionals against amateurs? Ok and music at very different paces?

Point is simple. Without correct stepping foundations you don't have salsa. You can spin 6000 times in a row without suffering a stroke, but you will still not have salsa. You can wave your hands and arms all over the place, but still no salsa!

Stepping is where salsa begins and builds itself upwards, through subtle movement and essence. ALL major salsa styles have it!

If you come across a 'new' salsa style that doesn't emphasize stepping then it is NOT salsa, or at the least, the teacher teaching it is totally and hopelessly clueless and/or a conman!

Nice save, I'm sorry Azzey came in and gave you and others a way out to excuse your interminable bashing of salsa styles you don't like.

No one has said that having a quality basic step isn't at the very heart of Salsa, don't pretend that I or anyone else has claimed otherwise.

 

[wildbill20056]

Further I would like to say that there is also something to be said for having subtle movement, I don't believe everyone needs to be funneled into having very pronounced stepping.

I do not say quality stepping is not absolutely essential, only that it can be employed in a number of different ways with utterly different outcomes.

Some of my favourite latino dancers, when I was getting started, were the older gents who didn't have nearly the amount of obvious movement available to them anymore. What they had was style, sabor and an elegant and grounded employment of subtle movement.

 

[tallpaul]

There you again by deliberately trying to distort the message.

NOT AT ALL, Ara.

(Out of curiousity, when you say "there you go again" - can you point out where in my previous posts on this thread that I deliberately set out to distort? I am actually interested in the message here, and in my previous forays I've tried to be as objective as I can, trying to sift between the message and the vitriol - but I've got rather worn out with the "you're either for us or against us" subtext from a number of people).

I'm simply saying that I got it when Azzey described it.

I have been struggling the whole time to understand what you have been saying about stepping, because I don't know how to apply it to NY/LA style salsa. Your examples all relate to Cali style, Cuban and PR. You don't point to any good examples of NY/LA style dancing. (Even though you say it's not about some styles being better than others).

Puerto Rican style is obviously the closest to NY/LA, but looking at these clips I wasn't getting what was there that was missing from the stepping of typical NY/LA style dancers. (You may laugh at pour scorn and derision at this if you like - but that's not going to help me to understand).

When Azzey explained the difference in more objective and dispassionate terms, I understood. I also found Soplo's subsequent posts helpful. It also helps that I know that Azzey likes flashy spinny LA/NY style dancing, so he's not having a go.

I apologize for implying that your message could be summarised by "Cali style stepping is the best kind of stepping". I did not mean to reduce your position to that.

I simply meant that if we're not trying to carry on a style war here, then some work is required to apply these concepts in a NY/LA style setting.

Well, I am sure that people see through your transparent attempts to sabotage what is being said. The only ones who will believe your fantasy take on the issues discussed here are the same ones who have lacked the attention span to accompany this thread in an intelligent manner, while drawing clueless conclusions and bringing them up in the safety of OTHER threads. These are probably the people who don't have the attention span to dance a single salsa song without turning, spinning and generally going into a unrelated (to the music) clown act.

This is the language of personal attack, Ara, and I feel that it is thoroughly unjustified.

You have no idea what my "fantasy take" is on the issues discussed, because I haven't mustered enough energy to discuss them fully. (I've wanted to - in response to post #1022 of yours, which I actually found quite helpful - but I know that I would need to commit a lot of time to respond fully and follow up on any responses, and defend myself from attack where necessary).

I've simply complained that derisive language and disrespect for everyone who has not yet come round to one's own point of view (for example see below) does not help open and enlightening discussion - it simply "stirs the proverbial" (as you put it yourself).

Actually, I am pleasantly surprised on how many people have actually seen through all of this often muddled back and forth in this thread, and have come to understand the relatively simple, but important points that have been made here, even if that has not stopped the more delusional and 'assertive' members from going into denial mode and holding grudges, etc.

 

[tallpaul]

(Note: I crossposted with WildBill there, I hadn't realised we were both posting at the same time!

In case our views get rolled together - I'm responding to what was said TO ME, not any of the wider issues about dance fundamentals).

 

[el_Che]

Tito does not have a Cuban feel to me. He is a very elegant and sophisticated boricua style dancer! He oozes that sabor boricua!!! In PR and also in Orlando, FL, you find many dancers who move like Tito and have that sabor and elegance that he shows in this video! "Moving continuously" should be the standard, not the exception! For me it is part of the basics of salsa! And that is exactly what you see when you see Puerto Ricans dance!!!

I hope that there won't be any Cuban and PR assassins coming after me for saying what I am going to say now, but essentially, Cuban and PR style have very much in common, because they have the same core sources, which are the Son and the Afro heritage (it's manifestations, the Rumba in Cuba and Bomba in PR, also have much in common, although they have their differences as well...) .
I think that was the point here, not claiming that one is any better or worse than the other.

Also, I don't know soplo, so what I am gonna say now can be quite wrong (so don't take it personally, mate ), but maybe in his scene PR style doesn't exist, and he hasn't been exposed to this style much, so his points or reference are "Cuban" and "LA \ NY" styles (and yes, I know saying "LA \ NY" is quite a wrong statement on it's own) .
Considering this, and assuming he was comparing Tito to Cuban dancers and then to "LA \ NY" dancers (like Shaka here...), it's quite obvious why Tito looked "more Cuban" to him.
I can say that until asking around this forum only a few months ago, I would have made such an assertion myself, as I have not been properly exposed to PR style, which is non existent in my scene.
Most people would say the same being in that situation, I think...

They call it "dancing with the stars", when they do "the salsa"

Ha ha!
You nailed it man

Further I would like to say that there is also something to be said for having subtle movement, I don't believe everyone needs to be funneled into having very pronounced stepping.

I do not say quality stepping is not absolutely essential, only that it can be employed in a number of different ways with utterly different outcomes.

Some of my favourite latino dancers, when I was getting started, were the older gents who didn't have nearly the amount of obvious movement available to them anymore. What they had was style, sabor and an elegant and grounded employment of subtle movement.

As you probably know, to do the more subtle movements you must have near perfect control of the movement, being able to do it bigger first.
You can't go from 0 to subtle, and even when you are dancing in the most subtle way, the fundamentals will always be there, and will always be visible to some extent (sometimes more and sometimes less) .
Proper weight shifting will always be noticeable.
Watch the Roberto Roena video again and you will see a good example of that.

@tallpaul, regarding post #1130.
Regarding the issue of not applying proper stepping to "LA \ NY" styles.
Look at the Tito, or any other PR dancer clips posted here.
Look at their stepping and their rather simple way of dancing (the "less is more" thingy, again ) .
What makes you think you can't step like that in the "LA \ NY" styles?
You certainly can!
What makes you think you can't dance in that (quite simple) manner?
You certainly can.

If you like keeping your slot tight (as compared to the loose slot of Tito, for example), you can still do so.
If you like doing shines, you can still do so.
There is no contradiction between dancing more like these guys and dancing "LA \ NY" styles, unless one considers that dancing "LA \ NY" styles dictates MANDATORY use of multi spinning and complicated turn patterns (most people here claim it does not...) .

A few pages ago, when I posted the Tito clip, I also posted a clip of NY style - it has proper stepping and rather simple dancing, which is, of course, different from the PR style, but remains true to the fundamentals of salsa.

Now, here is another example of good NY style dancing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMDL37vSANw

Definitely not typical stuff they are doing, but NY style non the less.

Although you can't see their feet much of the time, I think these 2 have proper stepping foundations and body movement (especially the girl) .

They also do a few spins and a complicated combo here and there, but it's done in a tactful, musical, manner, IMO.

 

[azzey]

To be fair they can't make up their mind what they think at all.

To me what DJ Ara is saying is clear, concise and full of ways of describing the "manifestation" of Sabor. He's banging the "stepping" foundational drum because, like Clave, it's an important piece of the puzzle.. that leads in this case to other pieces like Cuban motion.

The sway between Palladium fanciness to fancier clips of Tito to this very simple clip of Tito, to Cali speed stepping. Yes they are all stepping but qualitatively there is a wide spectrum there to say the least.

That's because Sabor has no specific style. There are dancers with Sabor in each style and also many dancers who have no Sabor but may still be classed by some as good or even great dancers.

In this last clip, it's not far from the truth to say Tito is keeping it clean and simple. Most of his footwork a well taught Improver/Intermediate could replicate with little difficulty.

Complexity of basic is never the issue with Sabor or Cuban motion. Maybe you miss the elements of rhythm that Tito puts into his basic to emphasise the music. Most importantly though, there is a direct correlation between how he steps and his Cuban motion. Cuban motion is whole body and that is the biggest aspect that is missing from some dancers. i.e. too much isolation going on.

Further I would suggest that Shaka's weight transfers are much more regular than you suggest.

The ones that he does have very little impact on the rest of his body. True Cuban motion needs to be connected all the way from the feet to the head.

I'm not going to disparage the guy, he's not my taste (too much tippy toeing) but live and let live. I say this to clarify what DJ Ara is talking about. I think you aren't connecting the dots.

I would further suggest that a great deal of salsa stars less pronounced in their stepping are using their dynamic momentum and balance with the same timing and utility, simply with less emphasis.

We're not talking about leading here. Only stepping and body movement. So "dynamic momentum" "balance" and "timing" don't CREATE body movement and specifically Cuban motion. I don't see why you bring them up. Not the same utility we're talking about at all.

 

[azzey]

Tito does not have a Cuban feel to me. He is a very elegant and sophisticated boricua style dancer! He oozes that sabor boricua!!! In PR and also in Orlando, FL, you find many dancers who move like Tito and have that sabor and elegance that he shows in this video! "Moving continuously" should be the standard, not the exception! For me it is part of the basics of salsa! And that is exactly what you see when you see Puerto Ricans dance!!!

Yes I agree. I was trying to illustrate in short-hand (given the few moments I had to write) for others who are not familiar with true PR style that there are some similarities in elements like Cuban motion, rhythm, body movement etc. Not that they are the same, but that there is some going on - which is often missed in cross-body dancing. Hehe. Even though, like you say, he has sabor Borricua.

 

[azzey]

Thanks for this post Azzey. I think it's helped me understand this element of the discussion.

(Which I must say was still mystifying me after 100 or so pages of "hah! salsa dancers of all styles are crap, unless they learn to step like Cali dancers").

You're welcome. I could see the conversation seemed always (in the last few pages I read) to dodge what was really being talked about: Proper stepping leads to Cuban motion and Cuban motion is whole body, not just isolations here and there.

 

[wildbill20056]

El_Che are you referring me to solo dancing again?

--

Azzey with all due respect you haven't read through the entire thread otherwise you would appreciate that the points being made by the 'opposition' are not nearly as coherent are you present.

IF DJ Ara had simply been making a point such as: A fundamentally sound basic with associated cuban motion should be at the heart of all salsa, no one would have disagreed!

However to sum up some of the other positions of DJ Ara and the 'opposition':

Spinning, did you know, is non musical, so for God's sake Azzey, don't pull out anything more than a double the next time you go dancing, or you too will have no sabor! (People will try to make excuses for this, 'oh but we never said spinning was bad, just the way everyone we see on youtube spinning is!')

LA style is totally non authentic, and heck isn't even Salsa.

Juan Matos, Adolfo, etc are all just well trained performance dancers, who aren't real Salseros.

No Australian can possibly have as valid a view on Salsa as a latino.

The entire Salsa world and especially it's prominent members are generally crap, barring one or two who 'make the grade' but who would, of course, be outshone in seconds in a 'real' salsa nation or capital ie Cali.

Oh and if you don't agree with DJ Ara you're just wrong, because, didn't you know? He's a Salsero!

---

Now I don't doubt some weaseling out will come after this.

---

However please let no one think this conversaion is in any way between one side that things a quality basic is important and another which does not. That's simply absurd.

 

[azzey]

Sorry about mistakes, letter r from my note is broken..

What will you do if you can't RSRS! :razz:

 

[wildbill20056]

We're not talking about leading here. Only stepping and body movement. So "dynamic momentum" "balance" and "timing" don't CREATE body movement and specifically Cuban motion. I don't see why you bring them up. Not the same utility we're talking about at all.

Oh I was connecting the whole body. They might not be pronouncing their steps as noticeably, but they are still using their weight transfers (which stem from the lower body) effectively within the dance. If they suffered from poor weight transfer, and an absence of timing said weight management, their dancing would be very much less polished.

 

[azzey]

Azzey with all due respect you haven't read through the entire thread otherwise you would appreciate that the points being made by the 'opposition' are not nearly as coherent are you present.

Yeah I'm only talking about the comments made in the last few pages. Do you think I'm crazy to read 100+ pages?! I remember when this thread started.. :lol:

So I added a proviso to my previous comment to make that clear.

IF DJ Ara had simply been making a point such as: A fundamentally sound basic with associated cuban motion should be at the heart of all salsa, no one would have disagreed!

However to sum up some of the other positions of DJ Ara and the 'opposition':

Spinning, did you know, is non musical, so for God's sake Azzey, don't pull out anything more than a double the next time you go dancing, or you too will have no sabor! (People will try to make excuses for this, 'oh but we never said spinning was bad, just the way everyone we see on youtube spinning is!')

LA style is totally non authentic, and heck isn't even Salsa.

Juan Matos, Adolfo, etc are all just well trained performance dancers, who aren't real Salseros.

No Australian can possibly have as valid a view on Salsa as a latino.

The entire Salsa world and especially it's prominent members are generally crap, barring one or two who 'make the grade' but who would, of course, be outshone in seconds in a 'real' salsa nation or capital ie Cali.

Oh and if you don't agree with DJ Ara you're just wrong, because, didn't you know? He's a Salsero!

LOL. Thanks for the recap. Nothing I haven't heard before.
I see the conversation is going well then.

 

[tallpaul]

@tallpaul, regarding post #1130.
Regarding the issue of not applying proper stepping to "LA \ NY" styles.
Look at the Tito, or any other PR dancer clips posted here.
Look at their stepping and their rather simple way of dancing (the "less is more" thingy, again ) .
What makes you think you can't step like that in the "LA \ NY" styles?
You certainly can!
What makes you think you can't dance in that (quite simple) manner?
You certainly can.

Hi Che.
No, that's not what I meant.

I meant that I failed to see what these guys have in their stepping that is MISSING from the stepping of typical NY style or LA style dancers/instructors, when these dancers are not spinning and dancing complex patterns.

When I compare Tito with Shaka (both of whom I already admire a lot incidentally), I can see that both of them are stepping in time to the music, and dancing gracefully. In both cases, their weight transfer is subtle. But I can also see that Tito's weight transfer affects his whole body, whilst Shaka's style involves more body isolation, so that the weight transfer doesn't affect his upper body except when he wants it to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qBjjDQZmOM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w63eJri7bbM

So at least I think I can see what's being talked about here.

(Although I still don't see much objective basis for saying that Shaka's approach is "wrong" on this point, merely different).

Now, here is another example of good NY style dancing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMDL37vSANw

Definitely not typical stuff they are doing, but NY style non the less.

Thanks, this is nice. (And it also demonstrates the stepping->weight transfer thing).

But I don't see it is untypical of good NY style dancing (as aspired to by people in the "International Salsa scene").

 

[DJ Yuca]

However to sum up some of the other positions of DJ Ara and the 'opposition':

Spinning, did you know, is non musical, so for God's sake Azzey, don't pull out anything more than a double the next time you go dancing, or you too will have no sabor! (People will try to make excuses for this, 'oh but we never said spinning was bad, just the way everyone we see on youtube spinning is!')

LA style is totally non authentic, and heck isn't even Salsa.

Juan Matos, Adolfo, etc are all just well trained performance dancers, who aren't real Salseros.

No Australian can possibly have as valid a view on Salsa as a latino.

The entire Salsa world and especially it's prominent members are generally crap, barring one or two who 'make the grade' but who would, of course, be outshone in seconds in a 'real' salsa nation or capital ie Cali.

Oh and if you don't agree with DJ Ara you're just wrong, because, didn't you know? He's a Salsero!

Perhaps that's what has been said on this thread. I can't really say; there's no way I've read every post word for word, and much of what I have read has not stuck in my memory (fortunately in some instances). None the less, I'm presumably part of the 'opposition', and I do not entirely agree with the above.

My situation is: I've been on the scene, and part of this forum, for around 4 years. Very soon I noticed things, in my locality and on this forum, that were painfully obvious to me but seemed irrelevant or invisible to almost everyone else. Things that I found off putting, to say the least. Finally on this thread I've had it confirmed that I'm not alone.

You might think these issues are in my imagination, but I have to go on what my eyes and ears tell me. It's a shame this thread has alienated you, instead of changing your perceptions (I presume).

 

[azzey]

Oh I was connecting the whole body. They might not be pronouncing their steps as noticeably, but they are still using their weight transfers (which stem from the lower body) effectively within the dance. If they suffered from poor weight transfer, and an absence of timing said weight management, their dancing would be very much less polished.

No-one mentioned anything about timing. People who don't transfer weight or step properly often compensate in other ways. These things can be hidden especially if someone doesn't move much. So "polished" to one person could be "incorrect" or "unauthentic" to another in that they've taken away something that should have been there.