Technique vs Musicality/Sabor

[kbitten]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qBjjDQZmOM

This is not the couple with the lady in the red/orange top who were going bat crazy once in a while, as if doing a parody of salsa dancing, but the couple with the lady in the black top with the guy with the glasses on the right hand side of the screen. Their dancing is subtle, yet musical, their steps are good, while they are not going out of their way with them either. It just goes to show that you can still have 'different' interpretations of the same song on a personal level, if you have the foundations and understanding of the music and still be right!

The crazy lady in red is dancing with adrian, who tends to exagerate his dance a lot and i dont know why ladies try to match him rsrs but shes a good dancer, too " performer" for my taste but still a good follower. The guy with glasses dancing may seems subtle to you but the really thing happenning is thay he is a beginner rsrs and the lady too

 

[kbitten]

and I sau that cause I know them all

 

[azzey]

In terms of his stepping, which is Dj Ara and El Che's obsession there is nothing remarkable about the quality of his steps at all, in comparison with Adolfo or Shaka or J Vasquez etc.

However I'm really talking about his dancing, body movement and stepping

I disagree.

I think you miss the point they are making. Tito steps almost continuously, whereas Shaka does not. Shaka pivots, stops, tippy-toes, half-steps.. only less than half are real steps with proper weight transfer. You can see this from his legs. Pick any Shaka video and he's pretty much the same in that respect.

So for me, they are miles apart.

In the same way that Cuban salsa basic steps and cross-body basic steps are often miles apart in implementation. Tito has more a Cuban feel to the way he moves (he's moving continuously for a start) and I think that's one of the aspects that they're alluding to that they like as "authentic".

 

[wildbill20056]

I disagree.

I think you miss the point they are making. Tito steps almost continuously, whereas Shaka does not. Shaka pivots, stops, tippy-toes, half-steps.. only less than half are real steps with proper weight transfer. You can see this from his legs. Pick any Shaka video and he's pretty much the same in that respect.

To be fair they can't make up their mind what they think at all. The sway between Palladium fanciness to fancier clips of Tito to this very simple clip of Tito, to Cali speed stepping. Yes they are all stepping but qualitatively there is a wide spectrum there to say the least.

In this last clip, it's not far from the truth to say Tito is keeping it clean and simple. Most of his footwork a well taught Improver/Intermediate could replicate with little difficulty.

Further I would suggest that Shaka's weight transfers are much more regular than you suggest.

In the same way that Cuban salsa basic steps and cross-body basic steps are often miles apart in implementation. Tito has more a Cuban feel to the way he moves (he's moving continuously for a start) and I think that's one of the aspects that they're alluding to that they like as "authentic".

And I call that simply making more pronounced steps. I would further suggest that a great deal of salsa stars less pronounced in their stepping are using their dynamic momentum and balance with the same timing and utility, simply with less emphasis.

 

[DJ Ara]

The guy with glasses dancing may seems subtle to you but the really thing happenning is thay he is a beginner rsrs and the lady too

The guy with the glasses is a personal friend of mine and he has been dancing salsa since the early 2000s. The lady is also has been dancing since the 1990s. I am a personal friend of her's since the 1999, when I was first introduced to her. She has been to Cuba, Puerto Rico and Cali. The last two on multiple occasions. She has a great salsa music collection and DJs sometimes. She has also taught salsa - including at least one Cali Style workshop, and that was in 2003, if memory serves me correctly.

The lady is also a competent samba and tango dancer. I believe that she used to dance these before she was introduced to salsa, leading her to travel to Cali in the 1990s. She is very versatile and happily dances various styles of salsa, depending on who she is dancing with.

The man with the glasses is also a guy I know personally (a great guy) has also been to Puerto Rico once and to Cali on multiple occassions.

I think you may be mixing them up with someone else?

 

[DJ Ara]

To be fair they can't make up their mind what they think at all. The sway between Palladium fanciness to fancier clips of Tito to this very simple clip of Tito, to Cali speed stepping.

That is because they are all LINKED with essence, sabor and authenticity!

In this last clip, it's not far from the truth to say Tito is keeping it clean and simple. Most of his footwork a well taught Improver/Intermediate could replicate with little difficulty.

You are not getting this!

The issue is not about 'replication', but manifestation!

Replication is just the act of copying often without understanding a given movement - "monkey see, monkey do", if you like.....

To MANIFEST you need proper foundational training on the physical level and musical understanding in a more internal level, then you need to combine both in your dancing!

And I call that simply making more pronounced steps. I would further suggest that a great deal of salsa stars less pronounced in their stepping are using their dynamic momentum and balance with the same timing and utility, simply with less emphasis.

And I would suggest that a lot of so called salsa 'stars' have less pronounced stepping, because they have NO CLUE!


Salsa dancing starts with the stepping foundations! There is no way around this fact!

If so called salsa experts cannot emphasis their stepping, even when they are going over the top to show off, then that just means that their salsa 'education' is missing important foundational aspects, that is why people need to constantly be vigilant and check for valid references!

If people just follow 'famous' names, assuming that they are famous because they are great dancers, then they are going to spend a lot of money on learning relatively very few things, not to mention the wrong things. That is, even if they have great fun and games spinning and turning all over the place, out of tune with music.

As mentioned before, the same phenomenon mentioned is a reality in the Far Eastern imported martial arts scene where a lot of the famous names could not fight their way out of wet paper bags, and at best have a superficial knowledge of what they are teaching.

Different disciplines, but the same dual reality, and yes there are people in the Far Eastern martial arts 'international scene', rationalizing and making excuses for the mediocrity and even criticizing the traditional authentic practitioners, while describing their own empty versions as 'evolutions'....LOL!. The same BS....

Just saying.....

 

[Soplo]

great deal of salsa stars less pronounced in their stepping are using their dynamic momentum and balance with the same timing and utility, simply with less emphasis.

Next time my teacher chastises me for stopping my feet when performing a pattern, I'm going to tell him that I am using my dynamic momentum and balance and using less emphasis than he is and that he should get with the program

There comes a point where you reduce the foundations so much that it's not even recognizable. You can also just walk around and perform all these patterns and then dance it to any type of music. Most dances are using the same archetypal patterns anyways. There are only so many things two people can do in synchronous. What makes salsa distinct? The stepping.

If you remove basic cuban motion from salsa, you end up with just pattern work to salsa music and the essence is lost. The main emphasis for students should be on the basic step and weight transfers. You can't get to an advanced level without perfecting this.

The reason why Shaka doesn't move his shoulders or shimmy is not because he is not being inspired by 'the lyrics'. It's because he isn't doing cuban motion and so his ribcage isn't moving. He's mostly standing and just walking from spot to spot. Try standing and moving your shoulders... it's not natural. Now do cuban motion and watch how they naturally sway. All it takes is a little push to really bring your body to life and for it to be expressive and satisfying even when just doing the basics. If shaka stepped correctly, he would shimmy and move his shoulders a lot more.

 

[wildbill20056]

That is because they are all LINKED with essence, sabor and authenticity!

In your utterly subjective opinion.

You are not getting this!

The issue is not about 'replication', but manifestation!

Replication is just the act of copying often without understanding a given movement - "monkey see, monkey do", if you like.....

To MANIFEST you need proper foundational training on the physical level and musical understanding in a more internal level, then you need to combine both in your dancing!

I'm afraid that's simply untrue of the basic step. Employing the basic step with minimal styling requires no deep 'manifestation.'

And I would suggest that a lot of so called salsa 'stars' have less pronounced stepping, because they have NO CLUE!

Good for you. I call less pronounced 'subtle.' You seem to be a fan.

Salsa dancing starts with the stepping foundations! There is not way around this fact. If so called salsa experts cannot emphasis their stepping, even when they are going over the top to show off, then that just means that their salsa 'education' is missing important foundational aspects, that is why people need to constantly be vigilant and check for valid references!

What is this 'cannot?' I would suggest that being able to employ steps effectively without having to over-egg it is no mean feat. You assume 'does not' means 'cannot.' That's simply unsound.

If people just follow 'famous' names, assuming that they are famous because they are great dancers, then they are going to spend a lot of money on learning very few things, even if they have great fun and games spinning and turning all over the place, out of tune with music.

Oh back to the 'spinning' obsession. Yawn.

As mentioned before, the same phenomenon mentioned is a reality in the Far Eastern imported martial arts scene where a lot of the famous names could not fight their way out of wet paper bags, and at best have a superficial knowledge of what they are teaching.

Different disciplines, but the same dual reality, and yes there are people in the Far Eastern martial arts 'international scene', rationalizing and making excuses for the mediocrity and even criticizing the traditional authentic practitioners. The same BS....

Just saying.....

The problem is the mediocrity in international Salsa which you claim as an epidemic, simply doesn't exist.

 

[wildbill20056]

The reason why Shaka doesn't move his shoulders or shimmy is not because he is not being inspired by 'the lyrics'. It's because he isn't doing cuban motion and so his ribcage isn't moving. He's mostly standing and just walking from spot to spot. Try standing and moving your shoulders... it's not natural. Now do cuban motion and watch how they naturally sway. All it takes is a little push to really bring your body to life and for it to be expressive and satisfying even when just doing the basics. If shaka stepped correctly, he would shimmy and move his shoulders a lot more.

The salsa basic is 'walking with style.' And Shaka is more than capable of being highly mobile on a dance floor with little of this 'standing' you speak of.

Shimmys especially and shoulders, less so, are additions to your Cuban motion, but they are far from automatic.

Cuban motion effectively deals with your weight transfers, hips and incidental impacts on your core and torso.

 

[Soplo]

The salsa basic is 'walking with style.' And Shaka is more than capable of being highly mobile on a dance floor with little of this 'standing' you speak of.

If I took a modern dancer that has never, ever seen a latin dance and asked him to spin a girl and do a bunch of patterns, it would look just like Shaka. It wouldn't look like salsa. Salsa basic is deceptively hard even though it's called the basic.

If I am doing fast patterns and whipping around, then yes, simplifying the foot work would be beneficial. Of course. Shaka is doing this by just standing there or taking half steps. But, fast patterns is not the end goal- dancing is. That is why simplifying it is important because it removes a big reason why beginners stop actually dancing and just push and pull themselves through patterns. Complicated patterns kill the bodies natural propensity to move and shake in rythme to the music. Instead of carefully nurturing and guiding this, it is snuffed out early on by improper instruction and we end up with really bland stiff non-dancing.

Shimmys especially and shoulders, less so, are additions to your Cuban motion, but they are far from automatic.

Cuban motion effectively deals with your weight transfers, hips and incidental impacts on your core and torso.

The threshold is much lower when properly stepping and transfering your weight because your body is already moving. Making it move a little more and accenting the movement is easier than when your upper body is motionless. That's what I'm saying. Shaka barely moves is ribcage so a shimmy or shoulder movement would require more work because you are starting from 0 versus, let's says 25%, when doing proper cuban motion.

 

[DJ Ara]

In your utterly subjective opinion.

In my professional opinion. One day you will meet a real salsa professional in person and he will tell you the same thing, and he will laugh at the idea of comparing the essence and sabor shared by professional dancers from Cali, P.R. Cuba and the Palladium era to some of the what pass themselves off as professionals nowadays .

I'm afraid that's simply untrue of the basic step. Employing the basic step with minimal styling requires no deep 'manifestation.'

You are not going to see any deep manifestations in anything, if you have no points of reference yourself.

When eventually authentic salsa knowledge enlightens your mind, then you will see the connections I mentioned in the above paragraph and my previous post. You will also see that Cali Style is infinitely more than just fast steps......

Good for you. I call less pronounced 'subtle.' You seem to be a fan.

The difference is that what you call 'less pronounced' stepping, I call non-existent stepping.

What is this 'cannot?' I would suggest that being able to employ steps effectively without having to over-egg it is no mean feat. You assume 'does not' means 'cannot.' That's simply unsound.

What I say is very sound when it comes to salsa 'professionals', who when dancing, throw everything and the kitchen sink in order to 'impress' (or 'kill with laughter' depending on who is watching), with their constant meaningless turns, spins and over complicated patterns.

Yet, you say that these masters of Flash and Trash are somehow being 'economic' and 'subtle' about their stepping? LOL!

Oh back to the 'spinning' obsession. Yawn.

I think you have got me mixed up with someone else. I don't obssessively spin and turn. You must be thinking of someone else.....

The problem is the mediocrity in international Salsa which you claim as an epidemic, simply doesn't exist.

Sometimes the ones who occupy the deepest depths of the problem, are the last ones to see it........

It is difficult for many to see what is actually going on, because they are the products of this scene.

 

[DJ Ara]

Actually, I am pleasantly surprised on how many people have actually seen through all of this often muddled back and forth in this thread, and have come to understand the relatively simple, but important points that have been made here, even if that has not stopped the more delusional and 'assertive' members from going into denial mode and holding grudges, etc.

 

[wildbill20056]

DJ Ara, please go find a smaller horse to sit on, the one you're on is far too high.

The sad thing is you should appreciate that I have demonstrated a knowledge of the history of Salsa which is far from lacking in depth.

I could for example explain Contrabody motion to a technical degree you would be utterly unable to. So tell me, as a non dance instructor, talking to someone who is an instructor, who has the more cogent experience?

You talk about not seeing sabor or manifestations of this or that, and yet you yourself know next to nothing of the technical underpinnings, and Jag easily pointed out.

--

As for Shaka just standing around: He doesn't too much stationery work here does he?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w63eJri7bbM

Oh and PS I've seen strictly come dancing/dancing with the stars, if you think it looked much like this we have issues with someone's eyesight!

 

[DJ Ara]

DJ Ara, please go find a smaller horse to sit on, the one you're on is far too high.

My horse is a normal sized horse, it is yours that is a small one!

If you comprehend the significance of the above statement then you will finally appreciate the problems we are discussing.

The sad thing is you should appreciate that I have demonstrated a knowledge of the history of Salsa which is far from lacking in depth.

I commend your academic knowledge, which should be part of any professional's arsenal. However, the proof is in the pudding. You seem to be unable to differentiate between what was meant by stepping foundations; you don't seem to understand the concept of dance 'subtleties'; You do not seem to be able to see the sabor and essence by among others, Cali dancers who have been almost dancing from the time that they came out of the womb of their mothers; you do not understand that constant spinning and turning from beginning to the end of song is just flash and trash, if not just trash!


The statement that you are making above is like like kung fu fan telling a kung fu fighting warrior that his kung fu is good or better because he knows about its history......

I could for example explain Contrabody motion to a technical degree you would be utterly unable to. So tell me, as a non dance instructor, talking to someone who is an instructor, who has the more cogent experience?

For you to have 'cogent' experience in salsa, you need to be a SALSERO! Then you will understand the applications of whatever it is you know, to the actual music - meaning that you don't critique dancers who are infinitely better than you on the world wide web!

You talk about not seeing sabor or manifestations of this or that, and yet you yourself know next to nothing of the technical underpinnings, and Jag easily pointed out.

Being a real SALSERO and a professional of considerable experience enables me to recognize the fake salsa gurus from a mile off!

Yours and Jag's technical 'underpinnings' mean nothing when at least one of you was drooling over some woman's ability to spin 50 times in a row.

The proof is in the application, wether it is dancing, where the application is to the music, or wether it is in something like karate, where there are many who could give you a headache about their technical knowledge, but who could not apply their technique in a real situation, or even to fight their way out of wet paper bag.

It is all the same concept: Flash and trash vs. solid application

By the way, feel free to fly to Cali, Cuba or Puerto rico and impress the Barrio dancers with your technical 'underpinnings' and then see these guys and their 9 year old kids dance circles around you.

As for Shaka just standing around: He doesn't too much stationery work here does he?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w63eJri7bbM

That looks better from stepping point of view, but as far as sabor and essence is concerned, not my cup of tea!

The stepping does not look very salsa to me, but then I am not familiar with all the salsa sub styles out there, perhaps Terence can give his views on this?

Furthermore, what he did there can be done by any career cabaret dancers after a some relatively short choreography training.

Ask the same career dancer to dance SALSA like the following then he will not find it so easy:

Starting at 5:22
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-rfALGSjhM


Here are about 60 people on one stage in Cali doing better quality salsa steps then your example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLxQirhD9Uw

Here are the 9 year old kiddies from Cali:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3uc4l1FckM&feature=related

Cuba:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS58jwxQPFg&feature=related

This is the stuff that separates the men from the boys and the pseudo salsa parody dancers from the real McCoys!

If you think that your example's (in the video you posted) stepping was better than one single dancer in any of the above videos, then please point him or her out!

By the way, here is some Cuban dancing from what looks like somewhere in Europe, probably Spain and look at their stepping:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4dEEpea1yM&feature=related


Point is simple. Without correct stepping foundations you don't have salsa. You can spin 6000 times in a row without suffering a stroke, but you will still not have salsa. You can wave your hands and arms all over the place, but still no salsa!

Stepping is where salsa begins and builds itself upwards, through subtle movement and essence. ALL major salsa styles have it!

If you come across a 'new' salsa style that doesn't emphasize stepping then it is NOT salsa, or at the least, the teacher teaching it is totally and hopelessly clueless and/or a conman!

 

[terence]

It's because he isn't doing cuban motion and so his ribcage isn't moving. He's mostly standing and just walking from spot to spot.

Finally.. some one who "gets " it .

 

[el_Che]

In terms of his stepping, which is Dj Ara and El Che's obsession there is nothing remarkable about the quality of his steps at all, in comparison with Adolfo or Shaka or J Vasquez etc.

I'd argue he keeps a pretty loose slot and PR style is loosely slotted certainly.

However I'm really talking about his dancing, body movement and stepping

What exactly are you looking for in stepping to be that "special"?
Can't it just be "regular" proper stepping?

The crazy lady in red is dancing with adrian, who tends to exagerate his dance a lot and i dont know why ladies try to match him rsrs but shes a good dancer, too " performer" for my taste but still a good follower. The guy with glasses dancing may seems subtle to you but the really thing happenning is thay he is a beginner rsrs and the lady too

Reminds me of a salsa anecdote;
After dancing for 1 month - you are a "basics" dancer.
After dancing for 1 year - you are a "beginner" dancer.
After dancing for 3 years - you are an "advanced" dancer
After dancing for 5 years... you are a "beginner" dancer once more!



Whether the couple in this clip is a couple of beginners or not, I would like to share a thought;
If most people would stick to doing their fundamentals like their teachers (assuming they had good teachers) showed them during their early days, and keep the simple way of dancing they once had (as beginners), they would better dancers, if you ask me...

In this last clip, it's not far from the truth to say Tito is keeping it clean and simple. Most of his footwork a well taught Improver/Intermediate could replicate with little difficulty.

And is that a bad thing?
Again, what is the "more to it" you are looking for when judging a dancer's stepping?
Why can't the "simple" stepping that "a well taught Improver/Intermediate could replicate with little difficulty" be a good thing to do?

As for Shaka just standing around: He doesn't too much stationery work here does he?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w63eJri7bbM

Oh and PS I've seen strictly come dancing/dancing with the stars, if you think it looked much like this we have issues with someone's eyesight!

This video is a bit better; most girls in in have some nice body motion
Shaka also has a few nice bars there at ~01:15-~01:30, but that's about it... He also appears to stiff in this vid, if you ask me...

 

[tallpaul]

Actually, I am pleasantly surprised on how many people have actually seen through all of this often muddled back and forth in this thread, and have come to understand the relatively simple, but important points that have been made here, even if that has not stopped the more delusional and 'assertive' members from going into denial mode and holding grudges, etc.

I really wish you'd lay off the "everyone who disagrees with me is actually a delusional moron" party line, Ara. It's not helping anything.

Reading through the thread, it's not hard to find bad behaviour being shown on both sides of the discussion. Being on the "right" side doesn't justify it.

 

[tallpaul]

I think you miss the point they are making. Tito steps almost continuously, whereas Shaka does not. Shaka pivots, stops, tippy-toes, half-steps.. only less than half are real steps with proper weight transfer. You can see this from his legs. Pick any Shaka video and he's pretty much the same in that respect.

So for me, they are miles apart.

In the same way that Cuban salsa basic steps and cross-body basic steps are often miles apart in implementation. Tito has more a Cuban feel to the way he moves (he's moving continuously for a start) and I think that's one of the aspects that they're alluding to that they like as "authentic".

Thanks for this post Azzey. I think it's helped me understand this element of the discussion.

(Which I must say was still mystifying me after 100 or so pages of "hah! salsa dancers of all styles are crap, unless they learn to step like Cali dancers").

 

[salsera_alemana]

Short but sweet - Roberta Roena and Barbara Craddock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4LcSjJwveE

OMG, that is really sweet! And then to his own song! I just love that sabor boricua!!! Would love to dance with him!

 

[DJ Ara]

I really wish you'd lay off the "everyone who disagrees with me is actually a delusional moron" party line, Ara. It's not helping anything.

No one called anyone a moron, that is not to say that some people have not behaved like ones, by 'popping' in the thread and trying to distort the important messages that are being communicated, by trying to stir the proverbial......

Reading through the thread, it's not hard to find bad behaviour being shown on both sides of the discussion. Being on the "right" side doesn't justify it.

Yes, we have a thread which over a 100 pages long and where some hard facts had to be put on the table. Tempers got heated on both sides. Even so, facts remain facts and the truth is constant. That is to learn any discipline you are going to need authentic instruction and that means foundational training.

In salsa that means starting with your stepping, among other things and they working your way up in a MUSICAL manner, so that soon after you end up with at least a basic understanding of musical interpretation in motion. This basic understanding that I am talking about does seem to be a faculty of many who call themselves professionals, nor even the basic stepping.

People can deny this and start taking personal offence on behalf of their 'teachers', throw tantrums and go into the "I have the power" assertive mode, OR they can try to understand the points being made here by professionals and then go on to further investigating and researching them by looking at core salsa countries (and methodologies) for the answers, without getting outraged and acting like someone suggested for them to contact extraterrestials for salsa lessons.