Do you have a video of yourself dancing?
If you do we can see and judge if you are a showoff or not
Technique vs Musicality/Sabor
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Do you have a video of yourself dancing?
If you do we can see and judge if you are a showoff or not
Just wanted to add my 2 cents, and recent observation:
I think I finally witnessed a solid example of what some of this thread has been banging on about for so long.
Recently at a social, I saw two new dancers to the scene: If you just wear earplugs and watch them dance together, so that you as the observer do not hear the music, you would think that they were pretty impressive dancers. Personally, I think they were at least - they were doing moves which I haven't a hope of pulling off. And they pulled those moves off, technically very well, it was all very smooth.
However, take those earplugs out and watch them again, and then you realise that they really are not paying any attention to the music whatsoever. They seemed to want to dance at the same speed for every song, and at double speed for most of these. Spins were 'spun' in multiples of 5 or more in most cases. Hand flings (not flicks) were in my opinion over dramatic and over the top.
It just looked far far too busy and hectic, too much going on. If this was an attempt at being a performance, well, it was horrible in every sense of the word. I would never want to watch something like that.
Their WORST crime in my eyes and to my ears, was forcibly dancing bachata in a zouk like manner to Dominican music!
:headwall: Not going to lie, that upset me greatly.
Still... despite this stance I am taking, I do still recognise this is ALL completely subjective and of my personal opinion and tastes. So I still don't quite agree how we can be so definite about what is deemed 'flash&trash', or indeed whether we can really be in a position to criticise if someone wants to do all these moves out of sync with the music or not.
I see some people who don't know bachata, dance salsa moves to the music instead. I see some people who don't know kizomba/zouk dance bachata-esque moves to that music instead. They're here at the social, because they want to dance not to sit around.
I'm a little concerned that reading this thread has now turned me into an overly opinionated, snobby dancer!!!
However, I do think that this thread does highlight the need to have an appropriate/good role models for student dancers. Similar to the current debate going on in football, about diving - eventually people (kids) will start to think that it's actually part and parcel of the game... when it shouldn't be (even though it is in some parts of the world).
I did start to question in my mind, while I was watching these two dancers: Just who, where, what did you learn from - as you're completely ignoring the music! You're clearly able dancers, but who are your role models? Where are you getting your influences and inspiration from? Who is teaching you to dance like this? Whether this is from 'The International Salsa Scene' or not, I haven't a clue and don't care to venture into this part of the argument, as it's not something I know enough about.
But then, I could be totally wrong and that these two were just very very good beginners who only started to dance salsa last week and have trouble listening to the music!
I think I finally witnessed a solid example of what some of this thread has been banging on about for so long.
Recently at a social, I saw two new dancers to the scene: If you just wear earplugs and watch them dance together, so that you as the observer do not hear the music, you would think that they were pretty impressive dancers. Personally, I think they were at least - they were doing moves which I haven't a hope of pulling off. And they pulled those moves off, technically very well, it was all very smooth.
However, take those earplugs out and watch them again, and then you realise that they really are not paying any attention to the music whatsoever. They seemed to want to dance at the same speed for every song, and at double speed for most of these. Spins were 'spun' in multiples of 5 or more in most cases. Hand flings (not flicks) were in my opinion over dramatic and over the top.
It just looked far far too busy and hectic, too much going on. If this was an attempt at being a performance, well, it was horrible in every sense of the word. I would never want to watch something like that.
Their WORST crime in my eyes and to my ears, was forcibly dancing bachata in a zouk like manner to Dominican music!
:headwall: Not going to lie, that upset me greatly.Still... despite this stance I am taking, I do still recognise this is ALL completely subjective and of my personal opinion and tastes. So I still don't quite agree how we can be so definite about what is deemed 'flash&trash', or indeed whether we can really be in a position to criticise if someone wants to do all these moves out of sync with the music or not.
I see some people who don't know bachata, dance salsa moves to the music instead. I see some people who don't know kizomba/zouk dance bachata-esque moves to that music instead. They're here at the social, because they want to dance not to sit around.
I'm a little concerned that reading this thread has now turned me into an overly opinionated, snobby dancer!!!
However, I do think that this thread does highlight the need to have an appropriate/good role models for student dancers. Similar to the current debate going on in football, about diving - eventually people (kids) will start to think that it's actually part and parcel of the game... when it shouldn't be (even though it is in some parts of the world).
I did start to question in my mind, while I was watching these two dancers: Just who, where, what did you learn from - as you're completely ignoring the music! You're clearly able dancers, but who are your role models? Where are you getting your influences and inspiration from? Who is teaching you to dance like this? Whether this is from 'The International Salsa Scene' or not, I haven't a clue and don't care to venture into this part of the argument, as it's not something I know enough about.
But then, I could be totally wrong and that these two were just very very good beginners who only started to dance salsa last week and have trouble listening to the music!
wildbill20056
Son Montuno
I will stop back in to say:
Why is flash being permanently associated with 'Trash?'
There is absolutely nothing wrong with flash as the music dictates. The musicians sure as hell have their flashy moments, so too should the dancers!
Viva la flash!
Why is flash being permanently associated with 'Trash?'
There is absolutely nothing wrong with flash as the music dictates. The musicians sure as hell have their flashy moments, so too should the dancers!
Viva la flash!
J
I'm a little concerned that reading this thread has now turned me into an overly opinionated, snobby dancer!!!
Exactly! When you start policing arts or scientific research, you are headed down a slippery slope.
Bad science is bad science. Bad dancing is bad dancing. Only way you can decide something is 'bad' (a very subjective word) is if there is a consensus on what the respective fundamentals are. The rest is all subjective.
I don't think anyone can dictate what style anyone else should dance to which music. Only from aesthetic point of view you can either agree or disagree with whether the chosen dance style fits the music it seeks to reflect.
You hit the nail on the wall.
Most of the Cali style dancing, I seen here in USA (danced by visiting Cali dancers) is a lot of flash. But it is flash that I like and enjoy, though I may not want to do the same. Also watching them didn't make me assume that social dancing would be the same for an average dancer back in Cali.
On a more serious note, I think that flash is something that has no room on the dance floor, both literally and metaphorically speaking; many of the flashy elements force you to use a lot of space, which is uncommon on social floors.
Also, flashy stuff is mostly non musical, and it is rarely used purely for your own pleasure from dancing, but rather to show off to the crowd; most of the time you will not see people doing flashy stuff when the floor is empty and nobody is watching them, unless they are performers and are having a rehearsal.
Also, flashy stuff is mostly non musical, and it is rarely used purely for your own pleasure from dancing, but rather to show off to the crowd; most of the time you will not see people doing flashy stuff when the floor is empty and nobody is watching them, unless they are performers and are having a rehearsal.
To be honest I very rarely see people doing what I would call flashy stuff on the social dance floor (dips/tricks/acrobatics). It is usually only seen in performances/competitions as in the clip I posted earlier and I do not class turns and spins in xbody as flash as long as they are not over done.
wildbill20056
Son Montuno
You see we simply have different ideas of what constitutes 'flash.'
I consider flash to be anything particularly dramatic of eye catching, and a great deal of such material doesn't require a great deal of space.
You're also dead wrong about it being 'mostly' non musical. It all depends how it matches the tells from the music. When a big timbales solo comes up, that percussionist is without question showing off. Now tell me why the dancer isn't being musical by reflecting that in the dance?
Further if the floor is empty and there aren't many people around my dancing often gets 'bigger' to use the space, more travelling, more freedom to do dramatic styling. You see I always have an audience: she's dancing with me, and the dominant part of my job is to give her a great time.
I consider flash to be anything particularly dramatic of eye catching, and a great deal of such material doesn't require a great deal of space.
You're also dead wrong about it being 'mostly' non musical. It all depends how it matches the tells from the music. When a big timbales solo comes up, that percussionist is without question showing off. Now tell me why the dancer isn't being musical by reflecting that in the dance?
Further if the floor is empty and there aren't many people around my dancing often gets 'bigger' to use the space, more travelling, more freedom to do dramatic styling. You see I always have an audience: she's dancing with me, and the dominant part of my job is to give her a great time.
DJ Ara
Son Montuno
Not even the 'average' dancer. There are many great performers, who do not feel obliged to do the crazy stuff on a busy club dance floor. That is, they differentiate between what is required for performance dancing from that of salsa club dancing. Of course, they will dance better than average on the dance floor, specially if they are doing so with a competente dancer, but again, they are not there to put on a show, hence you do not get a lot of the snobishness that you get in some other places as the dancers are not worried about how good they want to look for total strangers.
Salsa Student
Son Montuno
Actually have to disagree with that. As long as it's done safely (aerials are almost always a bad idea in social dancing) and there's enough room, the occasional "flashy" move can be used to accentuate the music and add some texture to the dance.
Flashy stuff is inherently neither less or more musical than anything else, it all depends on how it fits into the music.
I think some performers may be more flashy when they're social dancing in front of a crowd, I haven't really seen much difference in social dancers flashiness though.
Damn, trying to boycott this thread
DJ Ara
Son Montuno
Most human beings like to be admired. The key factor is being admired in a sensible way. If you can throw in some sprinkles of flash here and there, without invading other dancers' space and/or bruising them, then perhaps that will be palatable and even entertaining to the unlooker.
I often take a lot of pleasure in watching local dancers who are MUSICALLY flash on club dance floors. This comes from years of dancing and the profound way they enjoy the music.
Most people who do the flashy stuff in the international scene, do so 'out of tune' with the music. A few are not, and know when to, or not to, "release the horses", so to speak. However, turning and spinning from beginning to the end of a song was never an acceptable flash.
The timbalero is 'showing off' and improvising, within a musical structure. If the dancer can do that, while keeping what he or she does relevant to the music and within his or her own space, then fine. Not necessary, but fine.
He can reflect it if he wants, but how? Flailing his hands and arms all over the place? Of course not. He has to reflect it within a SALSA dance structure and within his own space.
So, we are talking about musicality and its reflections on the dance floor. If the dancer has an idea of musical interpretation, then fine. The problem arises from people who have no idea, using the music just as an accessory to put on a 'show' and 'look good', while ending up achieving neither, and going on to say that in their own 'subjective' opinions they are 'great' dancers and were dancing 'to' the music.
There is nothing wrong with using a little more space, if it is available, but why do you want to use 'dramatic' styling?
That is a valid point. However, there are limits to that too. Many dancers get bored if they do not get spun and turned constantly, because that is their only identification with salsa dancing, as they don't really like the music; know the music and have never been told how to listen to it when dancing - read: bad instruction. So, to give such person a 'good time', one has spin and turn them constantly, beyond the musical requirements.
Of course, dancing with someone your own level, you will want to make the dance interesting. That is fine, however, your job becomes a lot easier if your dance partner loves the music and feels it in her bones, rather than relying solely on you to make things so interesting that she does not have to 'put up' with 5 minutes of hearing a music which she just cannot identify with and deep inside does not really love either.
Conclusion, do what you like on the dance floor, when interpreting the music and as long as you do not interfere in anyone else's space. That would be a good start, then see if you can trim down, as real expertise in physical activities is still mainly on the side of Less is More!
In general, I don't think that turns are "flash" by definition, and the same goes for spins.
You can do a few of those here and there is you feel the music "Demands" you to do so.
Still, doing dome super-duper-complicated turn, while looking sideways, searching for an audience, would be "flash" IMO.
Spinning a follower several dozen consecutive times, something which isn't musical in most cases, is also "flash", and is mostly done to "impress the crowd".
Please do give some examples of "musical flash" to further explain your point, Bill.
I doubt that musicians are "showing off" when performing solo parts.
Making a parallel between this and dancing, I would suggest to compare solo parts performed by the musicians to "Shines \ Sueltas" performed by dancers during social dancing when they feel the music "demands" it.
As for "dancing bigger", if the floor is mostly empty, there is nothing wrong with that; this is a good context to do so, although, of course, it is not mandatory...
Honestly this is no different elsewhere. You can't tell me that there are more snobbish people in one part of the world others. Human traits are more or less universal.
Not necessarily. People spins when no one is watching either.
I feel times when they are, especially when the live band is playing for the dancing crowd. And not only in the solo sections.
I don't see a connection between showing off and particular moves - whether spinning, dips, interpreting the music, footwork, complicated moves, acrobatics or just doing the perfect basic ...
If someone wants to show off, he will do anything of above in intention to impress the crowd. But he can do it also without any intention to impress the crowd - whether he wants just to impress the lady, or he just enjoy doing that (or both of them)
If someone wants to show off, he will do anything of above in intention to impress the crowd. But he can do it also without any intention to impress the crowd - whether he wants just to impress the lady, or he just enjoy doing that (or both of them)
DJ Ara
Son Montuno
Great find, DJ Yuca!
The dancing is very subtle but jam packed with essence and musicality, without any silly flashy/trashy moves and then there is the stepping......
GroovyMambo
Changui
Thanks for posting! I think it nicely illustrates several of the key features of classic PR style mentioned earlier by salsera_alemana and others. Of note are the leader breaking forward On2 (in contrast with ET2), the loose slot, and the simple yet expressive footwork. I think the simplicity of the dance beautifully reflected the music. Saborrrr!
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