Technique vs Musicality/Sabor

[DJ Ara]

I almost fell down from my chair after reading this!
:applause:

I sure hope that even some readers of such discussions will tell themselves... "maybe the frustrated dude is right about something... let's check that out!", and go do their research.

P.S:
Later, another "veteran" dancer joined the discussion, and pretty much said the same things that I have said.
He, too, of course, was "bood" by most.

The problem is that most people who argue and 'boooo', are themselves the product of the system - the international scene. So, their points of reference is going to be very limited. Unless they are willing to think outside of the box, they are condemned to spin and turn senselessly for the rest of their dancing careers, without ever feeling the need to investigate and expand their knowledge.

I am afraid this is a general human weakness. You will see it in any other discipline that has been commer******ed mainly by the clueless and you will also see it in the world of local and even geo-politics, where people will have their comfort zones and anyone trying to wake them to the truth will be seen as a 'conspiracy theorist'.

All people like me, you and others who have our view, do is to just point the finger and just tell it the way it is, anytime we get a chance. That is our obligation. People can do with our advice and information, what they wish. Let's just hope that we snap a few people out of living in a salsa 'la la land'.

 

[Jag75]

Where I come from most people who are serious about Salsa and dancing well frequent the salsa nights that play quality salsa music. I'm referring to all the classic stuff as well as new salsa dura and non-commercial romatica.

The places that play pop-salsa are genuinely frequented by people who are looking for a "latin night", not a salsa night, and they also play reggaeton in those places.

 

[DJ Yuca]

quality salsa music. I'm referring to all the classic stuff as well as new salsa dura and non-commercial romatica.

I knew we'd find some common ground!

 

[Smejmoon]

non-commercial romatica

Any examples?

 

[DJ Ara]

Where I come from most people who are serious about Salsa and dancing well frequent the salsa nights that play quality salsa music. I'm referring to all the classic stuff as well as new salsa dura and non-commercial romatica.

The places that play pop-salsa are genuinely frequented by people who are looking for a "latin night", not a salsa night, and they also play reggaeton in those places.

A high musical quality as regards Salsa Dura/Clasica is certainly one aspect that has to be consisitent in any night that is advertised as a SALSA night. Of course, that needs to go hand in hand with the dancers on the dance floor who have at least a basic to an above average idea of how to interpret the music.

I have been to salsa nights in London where the DJ is doing a good job, but where most (not all) of the public are at the same time not really dancing to the music - just the usual robotic spins and turns, as well as the choreographed patterns, to whatever song that is being played.

 

[DJ Ara]

Any examples?

Perhaps JAG meant the good quality Salsa Romantica that one can find if one has an ear for the music.

 

[DJ Ara]

I knew we'd find some common ground!

JAG's video of some salsa club dancing in his end of the woods contained very good salsa music. I guess one good DJ who sticks to his guns can reach a lot of people, but he will need the help of salsa teachers who teach salsa to good music also, as well as of course instructors who throw in a little bit of musical info and appreciation in their classes, together with decent musical interpretation skills.

 

[Soplo]

I don’t know anything really about the international salsa scene so I can’t comment on that… however, I agree with the general gist of what DJ Ara is saying because I’ve seen it locally. You get very competent people doing tricks and patterns without any regard for the musical structure or the body movement inherent in salsa.

I also agree that it’s not the fault of the dancer, but of the teachers. If you focus on complex patterns and spinning in class, you will create leaders who are so focused on leading that they barely move which eventually evolves into a very clean smooth style that is devoid and bland. The poor girls that have to weather these classes will also develop a less dynamic, nimble, style because it’s the only way you can be pulled and spun in a million directions while protecting yourself from physical harm. Rinse and repeat and you are left with very few people that can express with their bodies the music and all the sabor inherent in salsa. You can get technically very competent but miss the essence of the dance entirely. A shame really… I prefer the dance be simplified in hopes of keeping its roots and emphasis on body movement over patterns/spinning.

I’m trying to undo years of pattern learning and trying to return to the roots of this dance. It is very hard as there are very few teachers qualified and those that have it don’t teach it in their classes.

 

[DJ Ara]

I don’t know anything really about the international salsa scene so I can’t comment on that… however, I agree with the general gist of what DJ Ara is saying because I’ve seen it locally. You get very competent people doing tricks and patterns without any regard for the musical structure or the body movement inherent in salsa.

Hello Soplo,

I am glad that you see the relatively simple points that have been made in this thread.

What you see locally is repeated in dozens of locations across the international salsa scene. One can see these in videos that are all over the internet.

I also agree that it’s not the fault of the dancer, but of the teachers. If you focus on complex patterns and spinning in class, you will create leaders who are so focused on leading that they barely move which eventually evolves into a very clean smooth style that is devoid and bland.

Exactly!

It all becomes about 'cold' or empty techniques which are not generally related to the music.

The poor girls that have to weather these classes will also develop a less dynamic, nimble, style because it’s the only way you can be pulled and spun in a million directions while protecting yourself from physical harm.

And of course, this kind of 'salsa' dancing becomes the only reference for these girls, so they end up thinking that just because they can be led into multiple spins and turns, without breaking the furniture, then they are great salsa dancers.

Rinse and repeat and you are left with very few people that can express with their bodies the music and all the sabor inherent in salsa. You can get technically very competent but miss the essence of the dance entirely.

It is this technical competence that is deceiving many dancers into thinking that they (and/or heroes) are musical and full of 'sabor', when they are neither. That is because, no matter how good they are in performance of physical techniques, if they cannot apply that to music, then they are lousey salsa dancers.

A shame really… I prefer the dance be simplified in hopes of keeping its roots and emphasis on body movement over patterns/spinning.

I agree. Less is more!

I’m trying to undo years of pattern learning and trying to return to the roots of this dance.

I take my hat off to you, Soplo, and all who are like you, as you are in the relatively few (in any endeavor), who search for knowledge and evolution within a discipline, rather than just accept an easy 'made for dummies' commer******ed version, so that they can enjoy the usual delusions of grandeur that masters of mediocirty generally enjoy in this 'subjective' world of ours.

It is very hard as there are very few teachers qualified and those that have it don’t teach it in their classes.

If you find local clubs frequented by people from core salsa countries, then perhaps you can let the club atmosphere and norms, be your teacher.

Also, when you get the opportunity, travel to the core salsa destinations to enhance your learning process. I can advise you about Cali, and there are those here who can give you good advice on Puerto Rico and Cuba, as well as parts of the US.

 

[Yupuhhuh]

Not the word 'empty' which means without substance or essence.



I see salsa masters (in all aspects) regularly in Cali.

helluv

The issue is not about a "WAY" of dancing, but about the acquisition of genuine foundations in ANY way of dancing SALSA.

K

Perhaps, but I like to be thorough to avoid people misunderstanding what I say.

Maybe less is more?

Some will feel the music first, others will feel it under correct instruction that will draw their musicality out to the forfront and reflected in their dancing. The key phrase there is, 'correct instruction'.

Nowadays, more often than not, the incorrect instruction will 'hijack' the genuine musical feel of those who have it, and further inhibit it in those who needed help to bring theirs to the surface.

Correct salsa dance instruction by a real SALSERO teacher is fundamental for those who have not grown up in a salsero atmosphere.

The argument starts strong then mostly degenerates into something lacking, but mostly I agree about that many teachers are teaching to the popular and uneducated mass, meaning: they teach them what they want to be taught rather than balance that need for flash with the real technique, such as being considerate to those around you.

How many REAL SALSEROS who are qualified instructors teaching salsa in the international scene?

Interesting question....

Please, we've been there and done that.

There must be something I forgot, because one of my eternal faults is that I am not afraid to speak my mind, when it comes to subject areas that I know about.

Must be.

Not really.

I doubt anyone will think that some guy or girl dancing salsa clumsily while out of tune and rhythm are going to demonstrate 'sabor', even if they themselves are enjoying themselves. Of course, these same people may have 'sabor' in other fields, but to have sabor in salsa dancing one has to do so dancing salsa!

To dance salsa, one will need correct instruction which will mean correct fundamentals. I am afraid, there is no way around this.

One can have sabor in other fields but not in salsa? I will say this... I mean that this.... Okay, really... No, so what needs to be... nevermind

I don't think that I have said otherwise. However, technique without application to the music is meaningless, and just hearing (as opposed to listening to) the music, won't do it.

meh

The only thing I am defaming are the pretend salsa professionals who are ruining the scene and creating musically 'out of tune', spinners and turners, and if you read the thread back a few pages you will see that it was not just me, but others of experience that make the same points.

No one is ruining the salsa scene, total hyperbole. If you can't see that you're doing harm, despite some of the valid and even great points you're bringing. Perhaps you need to think of scaling back the intensity level.

The 'controversial' points made in this thread by me, Terence, Salsera Alemana, El Che, Toca Timba, etc. for the REAL salsa dance lovers.

Alrighty

The advice stands. Be vigilante and don't swallow all that is being sold to you as salsa dancing (or even music, it seems). Use the core salsa countries as references. Check the internet, get other written literature and if able to travel to those countries and see for yourself. That is the approach that REAL salsa lovers would have, to constantly look for sources of inspiration and improvements, not to mention, authentic knowledge.

This is true and I will also state that good teachers should encourage students to do this research on their own.

Some are here for genuine expansion of knowledge. Others are here to have their own superficial knowledge re-enforced back to them!

yeah, I know

Meaning, that this is no different from any other imported discipline themed forum. You will have the genuine practitioners and then you will have the ones who are the pseudo ones.

Yup

The genuine ones are here to learn about the dance and the music, which despite popular belief, are inherently connected.

Totally, I can think of SO MANY posters on this forum who would never be able to guess that salsa music has anything to do with salsa dance.

The genuine salsa fans will accept new facts and information, even if they correct their initial 'education'. The pseudo salsa dancers/fans ("why should I know names of salsa bands?"; "why should my teacher know names of salsa bands?";"I can spin 50 times in a row, without my eyeballs poping out, therefore I am a great 'salsa' dancer"; "I enjoy spinning from the beginning to the end of song, therefore I am musical" etc.), will happily post here, until they bump into real knowledge that happens to challenge their reality, then they either 'misunderstand' everything and/or backlash, or just 'switch off'.

Sure, why not?

Some of these people are so hypnotised by their illusions of salsa dancing abilities, that even when they do happen to venture to core salsa countries, they see themselves as equals of people who have been dancing genuine salsa almost from the time they came out of their mother's wombs. Some of the delusionals will go further and even criticise the core country salsa dancers. I have seen it all, it is sad for the most part, but also a source of great laughs.....LOL

People who are unwilling to embrace the techniques and ways of the places with which they visit will mostly end up gaining nothing, this is there own loss I hardly see any reason to discuss it or even care about it all that much, it's hardly worth even stating.

Actually, what I and others of experience are saying or implying is that one should get correct foundations in salsa dancing (including space control), before even thinking about 'sabor', which should be a reflection of a solid foundation in the former.

Okay, good, this is good, maybe I'll come back to this later...

That means the main problem of the dancers in the international scene is not the lack of 'sabor', it is the fact that most (and by implication, their 'teachers') don't even have basic foundational training, nor musical understanding. Once they sort that problem out, then they can worry about 'sabor'! Otherwise, the idea of dancing bad salsa, but with 'sabor' becomes a contradiction in terms.

I think I disagree in this aspect. I wonder how many of the teachers have the qualifications (meaning the knowledge) but rather, simply just don't have the teaching ability needed to impart this. Then you add into it that the student often doesn't want the more complex knowledge which creates the riff. This is actually a very interesting thought, but alas isn't super relevant to this thread so...

I am sure that in some things, we do.

 

[Yupuhhuh]

I don’t know anything really about the international salsa scene so I can’t comment on that… however, I agree with the general gist of what DJ Ara is saying because I’ve seen it locally. You get very competent people doing tricks and patterns without any regard for the musical structure or the body movement inherent in salsa.

I also agree that it’s not the fault of the dancer, but of the teachers. If you focus on complex patterns and spinning in class, you will create leaders who are so focused on leading that they barely move which eventually evolves into a very clean smooth style that is devoid and bland. The poor girls that have to weather these classes will also develop a less dynamic, nimble, style because it’s the only way you can be pulled and spun in a million directions while protecting yourself from physical harm. Rinse and repeat and you are left with very few people that can express with their bodies the music and all the sabor inherent in salsa. You can get technically very competent but miss the essence of the dance entirely. A shame really… I prefer the dance be simplified in hopes of keeping its roots and emphasis on body movement over patterns/spinning.

I’m trying to undo years of pattern learning and trying to return to the roots of this dance. It is very hard as there are very few teachers qualified and those that have it don’t teach it in their classes.

Good post, one problem that's definite is when a student decides to stick with one teacher regardless. Unfortunately human nature being what it is, very rarely in the US I would say do you find teachers recommending other teachers, or even taking other classes unless financial gain is involved.

Really, dancing in place is a good place to start not only for sabor, but also for technique and one should start this in the frame. I honestly don't think you need to unlearn patterns, it's more learning to do the 'quiet' moves and appreciating those.

 

[el_Che]

The argument starts strong then mostly degenerates into something lacking, but mostly I agree about that many teachers are teaching to the popular and uneducated mass, meaning: they teach them what they want to be taught rather than balance that need for flash with the real technique, such as being considerate to those around you.

"Need for flash & trash" ? !
No such need exists...

 

[londongirl]

This is just too vague...

What is flash and trash? I think a detailed list of specific moves or elements should be presented so we are sure we are all talking about the same thing (videos would help). Also clarification on whether these things are acceptable in performances or not.

 

[el_Che]

This is just too vague...

What is flash and trash? I think a detailed list of specific moves or elements should be presented so we are sure we are all talking about the same thing (videos would help). Also clarification on whether these things are acceptable in performances or not.

Flash & Trash are things that you would do in performance only, with choreography;
This are all acrobatics, including lifts, throws, flings, big dips, excessive spins, and also doing huge steps to "fill the stage", and looking at the crowd rather than looking at your partner.

 

[salsology]

Flash & Trash are things that you would do in performance only, with choreography;
This are all acrobatics, including lifts, throws, flings, big dips, excessive spins, and also doing huge steps to "fill the stage", and looking at the crowd rather than looking at your partner.

you mean like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUALvLVmQ1Q&feature=related

 

[el_Che]

Some of it, actually (00:19, 00:47, 01:47, 02:16)

P.S:
BTW, did anyone notice that this performance is danced to a track called "el baile del mono" (= dance of the monkey) ?

The parts I mentioned seem to be a good explanation of why that is so

 

[salsology]

Some of it, actually (00:19, 00:47, 01:47, 02:16)

P.S:
BTW, did anyone notice that this performance is danced to a track called "el baile del mono" (= dance of the monkey) ?

The parts I mentioned seem to be a good explanation of why that is so

Ok, I own up, I posted that video deliberately to catch you out.
Now go back to one of the earlier DJ Ara posts - this was the first video he posted to give an example of a dance to exemplify his argument!

But it seems you agree with me that parts of this dance fulfil your definition of flash and trash - and not a spin to be seen

 

[el_Che]

Ok, I own up, I posted that video deliberately to catch you out.
Now go back to one of the earlier DJ Ara posts - this was the first video he posted to give an example of a dance to exemplify his argument!

But it seems you agree with me that parts of this dance fulfil your definition of flash and trash - and not a spin to be seen

Catch me with what?
I am quite aware of this video being posted many times, and discussed on many pages, here before.

This video has been brought up to the thread to exemplify proper stepping - it certainly fulfills that objective.

At the same time, one can clearly see that the couple, along with some other couples, is dancing in a circle of people, is being taped, and there is somebody speaking in a microphone at times.
This logically leads to the conclusion that the couple is competing \ performing, and that is the reason they are doing the flash & trash stuff at times.

 

[TwoLeftFeet]

This is just too vague...

What is flash and trash? I think a detailed list of specific moves or elements should be presented so we are sure we are all talking about the same thing (videos would help). Also clarification on whether these things are acceptable in performances or not.

I don't think anyone can ever truly decide what is 'Flash & Trash' the whole thing is totally subjective to the abilities of the people around you. If you put a whole load of acrobatic type salsa performers in one room, spinning a girl round your waist would probably be considered boring :shock:. For this reason i think many cuban/colombian dancers think poorly (read think xbody are snobs) of XBody dancers because what a crossbody dancer might execute seems wildy over the top in comparison to their own dancing. in the same respect If i saw a colombian dancer doing mad steps in front of me i might think they were showing off.

It always amuses me that I get called a showoff (a lot) on some of my local nights where I salsa, yet im a very mediocre dancer especially in comparison to other scenes.

 

[salsology]

Catch me with what?
At the same time, one can clearly see that the couple, along with some other couples, is dancing in a circle of people, is being taped, and there is somebody speaking in a microphone at times.
This logically leads to the conclusion that the couple is competing \ performing, and that is the reason they are doing the flash & trash stuff at times.

You're right, my bad.
watching again I can see that it is probably a competition of sorts