Taught Salsa vs. Salsa de la sala

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invane

I enjoy watching other people dance - sometimes you pick up a step and incorporate it into your own moves, but I strongly feel that dancers who have learned in a dance school are so stiff in their movements (predictable) as oppose to dancers who have learned to dance at home, you know from your tia & tio..LOL

I've been watching a few of the dancer on youtube and at the clubs, some just have that flow, but way too many that are just doing the routine. I hope that is not the path that Salsa is taking for the newer generation. There is nothing better than seeing the spontenanty of a good dancer.

I wonder if they are feeling the music or just doing what they were taught in school. If so someone has to go back to Salsa 101....you know when they tell you that salsa is not only about the music but also about the story behind the lyrics. Its a state of Mind, Body & Soul...
 
The BEST dancers meld the two. They understand the feeling and at the same time they respect that there is a way to dance to the music that is widely accepted and they try to respect that.

Timing: The best dancers with the most sabor in the world will tell you that when first learning there is no substitute for COUNTING.

Posture: Another key thing that you might overlook if not learning properly is posture. It is amazing how many of us neglect proper posture while dancing.

Lead/follow is another aspect that should be taken into account. Alot of "untrained" leads will be be very rough with there partners. Alot of untrained follows will expect the leads to be very rough with them.

I could go on and on. While yes the feeling is important and it is sad that alot of dancers have lost that, in order to truly be a great dancer you need to both be able to have the feeling inside and also be properly trained.
 
I have to strongly back up what Vin said. I run into alot of what you called "tia y tio" taught dancers. I've had them tell me things like "I don't need a school" "you can't teach me anything it's in the blood" "I've been doing this since I was born". The main problem as Vin stated and I see it is a complete lack of Timing. They have absolutely no concept of what it means or how to apply it. Not to mention there footwork is totally disorganized. Their feeling may be more natural but very ugly to watch them dance.
 
You have to remember that Salsa is a partner dance so some sort of common ground (classes) is vital, otherwise you can only dance with people who are "used to" dancing with you.

This isn't exclusive to Salsa. I've been to weddings/socials where people have self taught themselves to jive. They can only dance with one or 2 people. Dance with them and they are wrestling with you. There is no lead of follow, just force. Also they are many aspects to dancing that the "monkey see, monkeys do" method will miss.

I've heard of people saying they've only learnt what they know on the dancefloor without taking a class. But if they dance really well it isn't just from solely social-dancing. Some homework/class has been done in some form or another. They can BS me all they want but I won't buy it.

But I would agree that spirit of the music is hard to find in some schools where the dancers are always performing even when social dancing. It looks very contrived and they don't seem to be enjoying themsleves at all. I've met too many people who don't even like the music they're dancing to. And as a music nut, it confuses me.
 
Invane, totally agree. Also, the school attenders and team members tend to be very cliquish, that's what I don't like about them. I am a pure social dancer (and I always dance on the RIGHT timing) of course, I don't believe going to classes is the only way to get the right timing (count).
 
When people first start going to class then yes - they are going to look mechanical - its all they know. Everyone looks the same because they all know the same stuff. However, as they get more advanced they will figure out what works good for them and they will figure out their own style. They will start feeling the music more - when the music changes they will change - but it takes a while to get to this level.

As for Tia and Tio taught dancers - they are all good to - however, I have a hard time dancing with them. I am a lead - and the follows generally don't have very good follow skills - in the sense that I have to force them through moves. This doesn't feel good to me. However, I am not going to talk trash or put down anyone regardless of their style or how they were taught. If family taught dancers like dancing like that - then thats great - we are all here to have fun and enjoy ourselves. Its a matter of personal preference.
 
OK ... here we go again ;)

1. Salsa dancing is NOT AT ALL about counting 123 567, It is all about feeling the music inside you and let it move your body.

2. Salsa dancing is NOT AT ALL about patterns and flashy moves. it is all about connecting with your partner and enjoy yourselves together, to have fun moving to the rythm.

The thing is, I think there is no way to avoid the "salsa school" thing for people who not were born in Latin America.

They haven't heard this music since they were babies nor have learned to move to the music and dance from your family members... These people needs some kind of fast paced learning and some structure and patterns to practice to, that is clear.

The problem is, most schools, teachers and students tend to focus on the pattern/flash/show side of the thing... and they become pattern monkeys without "sabor".

In my native country we danced in a more simple way, not many turns and patterns, but dead on the rythm.

if I do that with an European girl, she gets bored quickly.. she wants patters, flashy moves, she wants to do sexy styling, even if she can't follow the rythm right.

That is the problem.
 
You mean to tell me that in your "native countries" no one ever takes lessons? Are you telling me that in your "native countries" no one ever has bad timing?. That is a load of boohickey and you know it.

I have met people from all over Latin America who have taken salsa
lessons. I have also met people from those countries who wish that people in their own countries would take salsa as seriously as the dancers in North America and Europe do. I have also met people from Latin America who couldn't find the beat if their life depended on it.

Personally I think both approaches could benifit from each other. Lessons should focus on timing first, which I think people who have grown up with the music could also benifit from. Patterns are fun and can enhance the experience if used appropriately. Overall I say let people enjoy themselves and if you don't like the way they dance . . . why be a hater?
 
Different strokes for different folks should be the title of this thread :)

People dance for all kinds of different reasons - some dance to get better, some dance to only have fun, some dance to meet a romantic interest, some dance because they want it to be their career, some dance because they are addicted and can't live with out it and some dance as an escape to a mundane life. With all of these differing reasons to dance it would be hard to create a right and a wrong way to dance. I'll give some examples to help illustrate my point.

Take my parents for example, they have never danced before and are very busy. I have shown them the basic step and some patterns and every time I go home to visit I show them a new pattern and we go out dancing together. This is something they do very casually - and to be honest - they suck. No rhythm, no timing - my father can't lead and my mother can't follow. But you know what - it doesn't matter. They are having fun - and we go out as a family (I also invite my siblings) and enjoy eachother's company.

Another example - a friend of mine named Sophia only goes out dancing once a month or so and has been dancing since she was a kid at weddings and other celebrations. She likes to go out and have a beer and sit around and talk and dance the ocasional song. I have a hard time dancing with her because I generally do not lead strong - I try and keep a very slight lead and let the lady make her own movements. But she still dances and has fun and has no intention of getting - she doesn't need to - she dances the way she wants and doesn't see the need to change.

Another example - a friend name Ricardo - he would really like to make teaching salsa his career. He is working extremely hard at getting better - improving everything. Over the last three years he has improved tremendously. Its his main passion in life. He goes to congresses - he social dances four nights a week, he teaches classes, he takes private lessons where he goes and so on and so forth.

Then there is me - when I first started dancing I had the intention of learning enough so that I could go on a cruise and go dancing. I had five months to learn - so I learned the basics and some patterns and didn't really focus on timing or styling - I just wanted to be able to move on the dance floor. However, I fell in love with the dance and started taking lessons - focused on timing and every other aspect of the dance, and then about four years later I got a little burned out - I had to take a break, and now I am just going out dancing - not focusing on improving - just enjoying the scene.

With all of these examples - I hope that I illustrate that there are many different types of dancers on the dance floor - and people should be allowed to dance however they went for whatever reason. Could you really say that any one of these people are wrong or bad for dancing the way they do? Who is to be the judge? As long as they are having fun and not hurting anyone - well then let them be. If you can pick out an example and demonstrate why that person is wrong or bad then please do - I would love to hear the explanation.

yes, its different from the way that you dance - and h*ll, maybe its even different from the way the dance was intended to be danced. Why should the people that created this danced be allowed to dictate how everyone should dance. The creators of salsa were innovators - they took other dances and distorted them in such a way as to change the dances as they were originally intended to dance :shock: so I can't imagine that the creators of salsa had the intention of creating a one size fits all dance that can only be danced the way that they danced. And even if they did - who cares what they intended at the time. The fact of the matter is that salsa is for everyone! For everyone who chooses to dance it!! There really shouldn't be a right way or a wrong way to dance. If you are enjoying yourself - then its all good. (On a side note - I am not talking about floor craft - people shouldn't ignore the other people around them and put people in danger of being hit - thats another topic).

Also - look at who makes up the salsa community. How many people take lessons and how many people stay with salsa for more than one year. Each community is different so I can only speak for the scenes that I am intimately familiar with - Seattle, PHoenix and Portland - in all three of the scenes the story is the same. Lots of people take lessons - some people will go out and dance - however, a few will continue to dance after one year. If the majority of the dancers never make it past four or five months then what is the point of teaching them al of the finer details of the dance - the details that many of us thrive upon - like for instance timing - why should they know these things? By the time they figure it out they will leave the salsa world and move on to something else. Let them enjoy the dance however they want while they are here.

As far as timing and rhythm goes - the way that that I was taught requires me to be on time and to really listen ad follow the rhytm and feel it. This is how I like to dance and I wouldn't want to dance salsa any other way. However, some people don't need to have timing or rhthm in order to enjoy the dance. Woudl they enjoy it more if they were to learn timing and rhtyhm and how to feel the dance? Probably. But for some its not worth the investment in time - they enjoy dancing the way that they do - and don't see a need to change.

Again - I'll get off my soap box with one more sentence - different strokes for different folks.
 
invane said:
I enjoy watching other people dance - sometimes you pick up a step and incorporate it into your own moves, but I strongly feel that dancers who have learned in a dance school are so stiff in their movements (predictable) as oppose to dancers who have learned to dance at home, you know from your tia & tio..LOL
Click to expand...

It cuts both ways. A lot of those home-schooled by tias and tios make horrible social dancers. If they are followers, many are unleadable (if there is such a word) ! Moving to music and actually dancing are two different things.

invane said:
There is nothing better than seeing the spontaneity of a good dancer.
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A good dancer is a good dancer. Period. A good dancer will usually be good at other dance forms as well. It has nothing to do how he was taught. Some people are naturally talented at a skill. Other people are a good at acquiring it. Others are good at putting tremendous effort and working very hard to acquire the skill that they are not gifted with. All of them make very good dancers.

invane said:
I wonder if they are feeling the music or just doing what they were taught in school. If so someone has to go back to Salsa 101....you know when they tell you that salsa is not only about the music but also about the story behind the lyrics. Its a state of Mind, Body & Soul...
Click to expand...

It all depends on which stage of dancing they are in. You can't compare a non-Spanish speaking beginner with just 3-4 months of training in group classes to someone who has grown up listening to music for 10-16 years.
 
Andresito said:
OK ... here we go again ;)

In my native country we danced in a more simple way, not many turns and patterns, but dead on the rhythm.
Click to expand...

You are right. The rhythm may be dead on, but after doing 2 full minutes of side to side step, it does get bit boring :)

Having come from a place which is rich in music and dance arts, I can tell you that a properly trained dancer who has put some serious effort to learn will out perform a non-trained-casual-native-dancer-who-can-move anytime !
 
Good thread. Too often 'sabor' is the excuse some people (often Latinos) use to justify the fact that they're too lazy to take lessons and actually learn how to dance properly. No technique, no sense of leading / following, crazy body movements... if this is what they call 'sabor', I'd rather be called mechanical or predictable! There's a big difference between dancing and just moving your body for fun while listening to the music, although there's a connection somewhere between the two extremes.
 
Andr.-- Sorry mi amigo-- wish that were true-- in a major southern city, 95 % of my students were latinos, Cubans, P,Rs, Colombians etc..

The thing they all bring to the " table ", an understanding of the " story " being told in the lyrics.
Having said that, they really , by and large, did not have a clue about music.
Thats not uncommon in any genre I teach-- they are not supposed to !-- thats why people take lessons ( I hope ) to get a complete understanding, of the association between what we interpret with our bodies , and combining that, with the music .
I would readily agree with you , about content . Oddly enough, that is what attracts most of them towards improving their basic skills .
My objective, is to retain, as close as possible, the truer interpretation of the rhythmical content .
 
In my country we don't take salsa lessons. You learn from your family members when you are a child, you learn with your friends as a teenager when you start going to parties.

Sure there is people that have no rythm there and who don't dance at all.

I like the technical/patterny/flashy stuff. Taht is why I do it. I have to learn from more advanced guys in miami and from cubans here in Switzerland and I am still learning.

my post only focus in this:

The main elements of dance are

1. The music, the rythm, the feeling it gives you and moves your body.
2. Your partner, the enjoyment of doing it with her, our mutual joy.

If you don't have those 2 first deeply inside you, all the patterns, technique, lessons etc etc. are worthless

If you do have those 2, all the technical stuff you add to the dance enriches it in the right way.

vin said:
You mean to tell me that in your "native countries" no one ever takes lessons? Are you telling me that in your "native countries" no one ever has bad timing?. That is a load of boohickey and you know it.

I have met people from all over Latin America who have taken salsa
lessons. I have also met people from those countries who wish that people in their own countries would take salsa as seriously as the dancers in North America and Europe do. I have also met people from Latin America who couldn't find the beat if their life depended on it.

Personally I think both approaches could benifit from each other. Lessons should focus on timing first, which I think people who have grown up with the music could also benifit from. Patterns are fun and can enhance the experience if used appropriately. Overall I say let people enjoy themselves and if you don't like the way they dance . . . why be a hater?
Click to expand...
 
WOW

Yes, I am new to the forum and I have been having this thought in my mind for a while I didn't know that it was going to stir up such an interesting convo, but I'm gald to see that we all have more or less the same opinion. Salsa should be fun and innovative. If your dancing just because your boyfriend/girlfriend wants to learn or because your Latin and you think you should know how to dance salsa, then you should really just not do it.

I would agree that maybe some people need to take a class to learn posture and other key things you should know when dancing, but a good dancer is also a good watcher. I've been watching...and the more I watch and practice on my own, the better I have gotten over the years.

I'm so happy that I'm a Latina and my Tia/Tio had all those parties....they not only showed me how to do my 1,2,3' steps, but how to really put my foot in it! (LIterally)

Thanks for the feedback!
 
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