songs in 3-2 clave
- Thread starter rob88
- Start date
Sure, here is the complete list. For sure there is some error (much more at the end, where you can find the first songs that i checked for the clave)...corrections are wellcome
I think that the list contains also songs with a short introduction with 2-3 clave and then 3-2 clave in the rest of the song
Yes; this is missing in my list, although it is in the library, but it is of course one of the first songs I downloaded and maybe I was not able to tell the clave
Apiádate de mí seems to me more 2-3 : if you listen it en vivo you clearly hear the strong hit of the campana on 2, and the breaks also suggest a 2-3 clave (they come on 5)
DJ Yuca
Son Montuno
Thanks! A delight for any nerd. I will work my way through it. I don't recognise a lot of the tracks so should be interesting.
If I find any like that I will mention it.
DJ Yuca
Son Montuno
I listened to my CD again and was unsure but on the above live version you can clearly hear the cáscara in 2-3 from the beginning, so you're right.
Good job I've never auditioned to play percussion for Victor Manuelle.
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Yes, the studio version was not so clear: listening to live versions is always my last try when I am not sure about the clave direction
I didn't apply filters on song quality...you might find some creepy stuff in there too.
DJ Yuca
Son Montuno
I didn't apply filters on song quality...you might find some creepy stuff in there too.
You mean you listen to music you dislike? Or some stuff you like might not be to my tastes?
I have in my library bad music downloaded just for some party with friends who feel more comfortable dancing to the creepy stuff they can listen to in the local club
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First error:
Vivo Sin Ti - Marito Rivera Y Su Grupo Bravo
somewhere confusing to me but definitely 2-3 (at 3:35 they clap the clave)
DJ Yuca
Son Montuno
Got you. I have a few salsa tracks that I only bought for DJing purposes and which I would never listen to at home.
DJ Yuca
Son Montuno
The studio version:
Bear in mind it's recorded in El Salvador in 1990, so we really can't expect the kind of clave consistency that we would find in NY or PR. I hear clave changes at 0.45, 1.01, 1.26, 2.08, 2.24 then at 2.50 they confirm they are in 3-2. If you do the maths that means they must have started in 2-3 however I don't hear any clave specific patterns to confirm that.
I had to stop analysing it as it was sucking the pleasure out of the track, and I haven't even gone on to the live version. Some artists just don't see clave like the NY guys do. He's created a good and popular salsa track, so I imagine he would say: where's the problem?
If a NY percussionist played with him they might find it somewhat taxing.
Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
I don't know which songs are being listened to but, keep in mind, alot of songs aren't actually clave-switching. It's just that a musical note is falling on beat 2 during the start of a chorus, for example, and makes it sound or come off as if it went from 3-2 to 2-3. It's still 3-2 throughout.
DJ Yuca
Son Montuno
Bobby Sanabria referred in one of his masterclasses - unfortunately no longer online - to clave counterpoint, which I think means when it sounds like it's changing clave direction but a short while later it goes back. He illustrated it with one of the tracks from Dance Mania.
However in the Mayito Rivera track above I think the composer just didn't consider it. Clave may have been treated religiously in NY, but in Central and S America for many years it was of little importance.
Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
Believe you me clave was no longer deemed significant once the Salsa generation emerged. Only the vets who were around in the 1950s as sidemen and later emerged as the next wave of orchestra leaders pursued clave integrity. The rest? Not so much. They were in the same ballpark as those artists from Latin America and Caribbean.
DJ Yuca
Son Montuno
You may well be right, but it's rare to hear clave discrepancies on the likes of discs by Fania or Alegre. Which of course contained plenty of percussionists and band leaders who came up in the 50s or 60s. Even in PR, by the mid 70s the big names seemed to be far stricter with clave.
Of course, 1000s of salsa songs were recorded in NY in the 70s and 80s so there were plenty of clave irregularities, but they form a tiny percentage of the overall output.
Incidentally, even in the mambo era there were occasional clave irregularities on discs recorded in NY.
Wow, that was interesting - and probably lots of work! Thanks for sharing @pietro !
What I would ask myself if it was my library; Are the proportion’s representative or is it just that I myself just react more to 2-3 and that’s why they are more present in my library? Or in case you’re a dj/dancer: Because they are more easily danceable?
(I’m not putting in doubt your results, they pretty much cover what I thought - except Son, where in my expected more 3-2 proportionally than in your list.)
