songs in 3-2 clave

DJ Yuca said:
Does merengue have 3-2 clave? It's a rhythm I've not learnt on percussion but I need to learn asap.

Were there even many charangas recording in Cuba in the 70s and 80s?
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All Merengues I know do, at least from what I recall.
Yes, many! Ritmo oriental, Maravillas de Florida, la 440, Aliamén, and of course Aragon. There is others but I don’t remember.
 
Latinjazz said:
All Merengues I know do, at least from what I recall.
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I need to work out an arrangement of merengue for the bongos so I will try to incorporate 3-2 references.

Latinjazz said:
Yes, many! Ritmo oriental, Maravillas de Florida, la 440, Aliamén, and of course Aragon. There is others but I don’t remember.
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I've been trying for years to find which son-based bands were recording in Cuba in the 70s and 80s. I think there were a lot more in the 80s, but from the 70s I doubt I could name even 10 (unfortunately I have forgotten 1 or 2 someone mentioned ages ago).

Ritmo Oriental are one of the few I know of, I also heard that Aragón updated their sound in the 70s. The other 3 mentioned above seem to have started (or resumed in the case of Maravillas) recording in the 80s - I think Son 14's success from 1980 onwards, plus the visit of Oscar de León to Cuba and the popularity of NY and PR salsa romántica in Cuba in the early 80s opened the doors for a new generation of son-based music in Cuba.
 
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DJ Yuca said:
I need to work out an arrangement of merengue for the bongos so I will try to incorporate 3-2 references.
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I don’t know about the bongos in Merengue.
Originally tambora and güira, there is also tumbadora patterns, no idea about the rest.
And you have to play cinquillos with no rest! :)
I really like Merengue percussion and its instruments. BTW, bachata percussion is lots of fun too! They have 3 gears and lots of freedom, specially the bongos!
 
groseron said:
The majority of the 80s/90s which includes the "romantic era", if you're into this era of salsa
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I have had a theory for some time that 3-2 is more common in salsa romántica. But the majority of salsa romántica tracks are pure 3-2? No way.

Latinjazz said:
The problem is that they all switch to 2-3, that’s what supposedly is not wished.
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I'm sure there are plenty of románticas that are pure 2-3 or pure 3-2, however yes, there are many that start 3-2 then change to 2-3. Often the change isn't until after a few minutes.

Latinjazz said:
Btw some romantic salsa have KILLER montunos, sometimes it’s worth getting through the honey part until the party starts. :)
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Personally once I've heard such tracks a few times I usually like the beginnings as well. Maybe I'm soppy ha.
 
Yeah true, I agree, @Latinjazz and @DJ Yuca. The problem is, at some point it had become popular to write salsa not using the clave as a foundation (that is to say, the clave was not being used as measures/bars), instead they would approach writing music in a way that resembles writing ballads and pop music. So there's a lot of going back and forth with those clave changes due to how those songs were arranged.

In fact, the following is one I personally dealt with working in covering music... Te Va A Doler by Maelo Ruiz from the early 2000s is a great example of what a mess an arrangement can be made into regarding clave, which is why I am not a fan of playing that song hahaha. Even some of the greatest musicians still have trouble with that tune because it simply "feels odd/uncomfortable" to play [due to that song being arranged in a way that does not appreciate the clave]; but its a great example of what I previously mentioned because it just so happens to originally be a ballad, which was then arranged into a salsa tune for Maelo Ruiz (I'm guessing Diego Gale did the salsa arrangement for it??? Do any of you know?). The main part where musicians usually mess up when playing that song is the mambo section. There's also this strange little bolero bridge/break [in the cuerpo/verse section], and often times singers and the percussion get lost there lol.
 
groseron said:
Yeah true, I agree, @Latinjazz and @DJ Yuca. The problem is, at some point it had become popular to write salsa not using the clave as a foundation (that is to say, the clave was not being used as measures/bars), instead they would approach writing music in a way that resembles writing ballads and pop music. So there's a lot of going back and forth with those clave changes due to how those songs were arranged.

In fact, the following is one I personally dealt with working in covering music... Te Va A Doler by Maelo Ruiz from the early 2000s is a great example of what a mess an arrangement can be made into regarding clave, which is why I am not a fan of playing that song hahaha. Even some of the greatest musicians still have trouble with that tune because it simply "feels odd/uncomfortable" to play [due to that song being arranged in a way that does not appreciate the clave]; but its a great example of what I previously mentioned because it just so happens to originally be a ballad, which was then arranged into a salsa tune for Maelo Ruiz (I'm guessing Diego Gale did the salsa arrangement for it??? Do any of you know?). The main part where musicians usually mess up when playing that song is the mambo section. There's also this strange little bolero bridge/break [in the cuerpo/verse section], and often times singers and the percussion get lost there lol.
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I absolutely agree. We spoke - not long ago - about Cali Santiaguero which is absolute Clave chaos. It’s not fun to play these songs. As pianist or percussionist it’s having to adapt to the mess all the time. Btw, it’s the same thing I hear flamenco guitar players say when they have to comp old school singers in a Soleá, Peteneras, Seguiriyas or even fandangos. And it’s thanks to the “compers” that these songs work!
 
groseron said:
Yeah true, I agree, @Latinjazz and @DJ Yuca. The problem is, at some point it had become popular to write salsa not using the clave as a foundation (that is to say, the clave was not being used as measures/bars), instead they would approach writing music in a way that resembles writing ballads and pop music. So there's a lot of going back and forth with those clave changes due to how those songs were arranged.
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So you're saying that a lot of romántica tracks have a lot of clave changes? Not something I've ever noticed, although I'm more likely to gravitate towards romántica that's danceable. It's not a style that, in general, I've listened to in depth.

groseron said:
In fact, the following is one I personally dealt with working in covering music... Te Va A Doler by Maelo Ruiz from the early 2000s is a great example of what a mess an arrangement can be made into regarding clave, which is why I am not a fan of playing that song hahaha. Even some of the greatest musicians still have trouble with that tune because it simply "feels odd/uncomfortable" to play [due to that song being arranged in a way that does not appreciate the clave]; but its a great example of what I previously mentioned because it just so happens to originally be a ballad, which was then arranged into a salsa tune for Maelo Ruiz (I'm guessing Diego Gale did the salsa arrangement for it??? Do any of you know?). The main part where musicians usually mess up when playing that song is the mambo section. There's also this strange little bolero bridge/break [in the cuerpo/verse section], and often times singers and the percussion get lost there lol.
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I don't recall having heard this before. I've listened to it twice now and to me it doesn't appear to have any clave changes except from 3.40ish to 4.10ish: almost half a minute in 2-3, the rest is 3-2. If I were dancing I would ignore the 2-3 passage as it can be heard 3-2 and it's only short.


I'm probably missing something so please explain more about the clave discrepancies/confusion.

Latinjazz said:
It is very obvious when you hear Maelo Ruiz songs that the pianists are trying to play clave-neutral montunos, often just eight-notes all the way. Specially in cuerpos
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Maybe the lighter style of music requires less syncopation or a weaker sense of clave. I think the percussion is playing clave-based patterns though. It's only in the S American tracks (not all of course) that I hear clave-neutral percussion.
 
My take on romántica and 3-2 is that when there's a clave change it gives the song a boost. So with harder music the boost comes earlier whereas with romántica they spend longer in 3-2 before finally going to 2-3 near the end, and the whole song is smoother.

However some songs are pure 2-3 and 3-2 and they can also be hard or smooth. I'm not suggesting a clave change is essential to give a song a pick up - many songs don't have them and are very strong. In fact a clave change is impossible unless the melody works well in 2-3 and 3-2. Many melodies will only work in one clave direction. That variety makes the genre more interesting.

Are pure 3-2 tracks more common in salsa romántica than in salsa dura etc? Possibly. I will look for some examples.
 
DJ Yuca said:
Maybe the lighter style of music requires less syncopation or a weaker sense of clave.
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I was mostly speaking about montunos, which often tend to imitate more or classical-romantic-ostinatos than montunos in the cuerpos. Maelo Ruiz or Eddie Santiago etc have that a lot.
 
Orquesta Akokán Otro nivel

Those Cubans like their tresillos on the 2 side of the clave so I had to double check this one but it is 3-2. Killer track.
 
DJ Yuca said:
Orquesta Akokán Otro nivel

Those Cubans like their tresillos on the 2 side of the clave so I had to double check this one but it is 3-2. Killer track.
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La contraclave as dessert of all clave problems. As if we needed something to make it more complicated!
 
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