Shines Eclipsed

tallpaul said:
For an explanation of Cuban Motion, there was a good discussion on the subject a couple of years back. I'd say it's worth reading through it:
http://www.salsaforums.com/threads/cuban-motion.19996/

I would want to argue with the statement that "Cuban Motion is primarily in the hips". As was discussed in the thread above, Cuban Motion is a form of movement that involves your whole body in an integrated way - it's formed by your footwork and the way you place your weight on them. Stepping in this way does result in some hip movement though, so that's sometimes how people recognise it. (Unfortunately, many people end up with a very exaggerated version of "Cuban Motion" by trying to do it by moving their hips). Read the thread for further insight from better people than me.

However, I would certainly agree with CaliChris10's statement that CBM is the upper body rotating opposite to the lower body.
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I was trying to make it simple to differentiate the two...If you move you hips correctly in the figure eight form your upper body moves pretty naturally...They are harder to do while keeping your upper body still...
CM comes from within your center and involves many components..feet, ankles, knees, hips, ribcage, shoulders, arms...but also can just be the hips...
The figure eight hips are essential to CM...A cuban teacher of mine told me jokingly, that Cuban women walk everywhere with their figure eights...to the kitchen, cooking, shopping lol...figure eights are a must!
But I was keepin it simple:)...Sometimes too much info can be confusing when you are learning something new...
And I agree...I don't like any exaggerated movement, I want movement to flow and look/be natural!!
 
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Jag75 said:
Myst may I ask how long you've been dancing? Like Calichris I also have taken extensive lessons in body movement, contra body motion and Cuban motion. I see what she sees, and there is nothing I see in the vides she's posted that suggest there isn't Cuban motion in the dancing. And yes, the number of years of dance exposure is pertinent to one's observations.
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Hi Jag,
Cali and I actually agree, the confusion was due to me using CM and CBM interchangeably. We both agree Cali dancers lack Cuban Motion, due to the speed of their dance and their emphasis on footwork, plus also it might be a stylistic choice as Timberamajor pointed out.

Counter Body Motion is commonplace, so Cali dancers use it. I was always referring to Cuban Motion when I described the mechanics of Afro-Cuban movement, etc. Please keep that in mind when reading my previous posts. I certainly will be more selective with my word choice moving forward.

calichris10 said:
Myst, I also have a question...Where and with whom did you learn afro-cuban dance, CBM and CM?
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Regarding my experience I am not sure it's particularly relevant, but I'll share. I am born and raised in Cuba, not that that means anything, especially since I used to dislike Salsa & Timba. Nonetheless, I have been exposed to the music, dance, culture, and aesthetic of the dance whether I liked it or not since birth.

I now live in the vicinity of NYC and I started learning Salsa about 1.5 years ago with an Eddie Torres dancer - NYOn2 - getting hooked once I actually tried it. Since then I dedicate 10+ hours weekly non-stop like an addict, and all I listen to is Salsa.

Now, don't let my lack of "experience" fool you, by the time I was dancing for 8 months - people assumed I was at a 5-7 year level. Nowadays, when I go to high profile socials such as Jimmy Anton in NYC, advanced follows orbit me or straight up ask me to dance. People routinely ask me if I am an instructor or performer. The reason is because my strength has always been body movement, making me look a lot more experienced and better than I really am. (I have been taking classes with Frankie Martinez for about 3 months now, which has accelerated my progress exponentially).

Don't get me wrong, while my shines are crisp and my Cuban Motion is pretty advanced, my leading skills actually are a big issue and not on par with everything else. That is my sticking point, I know it, and I'm working on it :)
 
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calichris10 said:
I was trying to make it simple to differentiate the two...If you move you hips correctly in the figure eight form your upper body moves pretty naturally...They are harder to do while keeping your upper body still...
CM comes from within your center and involves many components..feet, ankles, knees, hips, ribcage, shoulders, arms...but also can just be the hips...
The figure eight hips are essential to CM...A cuban teacher of mine told me jokingly, that Cuban women walk everywhere with their figure eights...to the kitchen, cooking, shopping lol...figure eights are a must!
But I was keepin it simple:)...Sometimes too much info can be confusing when you are learning something new...
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Yeah, I appreciate that keeping things simple is good.

But my experience with Cuban Motion has been that thinking of it as "just the hips" definitely leads to problems - so I felt I should say something on this point.

Certainly, I think of it as a movement that comes from your feet, not your hips. (Especially as a man).

Have you read the other thread on the subject? It's pretty good.

calichris10 said:
And I agree...I don't like any exaggerated movement, I want movement to flow and look/be natural!!
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:)
 
tallpaul said:
Yeah, I appreciate that keeping things simple is good.

But my experience with Cuban Motion has been that thinking of it as "just the hips" definitely leads to problems - so I felt I should say something on this point.

Certainly, I think of it as a movement that comes from your feet, not your hips. (Especially as a man).

Have you read the other thread on the subject? It's pretty good.
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Not just the hips...but figure eight hips...and it was a way to differentiate the two...The movement is all about the knees! I don't have to move my feet to use CM! I just posted above on the subject.
 
Myst said:
Regarding my experience I am not sure it's particularly relevant, but I'll share. I am born and raised in Cuba, not that that means anything, especially since I used to dislike Salsa & Timba. Nonetheless, I have been exposed to the music, dance, culture, and aesthetic of the dance whether I liked it or not since birth.

I now live in the vicinity of NYC and I started learning Salsa about 1.5 years ago with an Eddie Torres dancer - NYOn2 - getting hooked once I actually tried it...
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Wow... A Cubano who's addicted to NY style - this must be a first for Salsa Forums!
:p
 
I'll bet she does :D

Since NY Mambo and Cuban Casino are my two favourite forms of Salsa, you're okay by me!
(I think the overlap between the two is pretty interesting and generally unexplored as well).
 
Myst said:
LOL, I know! my sister calls me the Black Sheep and a sellout. She's a hardcore Casinera.
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jajaja...
There is a cuban guy who dances ny on2 in Flordia and I love the way he dances because his body movement is unique and awesome! It just flows out of him naturally!
 
Myst said:
I now live in the vicinity of NYC and I started learning Salsa about 1.5 years ago with an Eddie Torres dancer - NYOn2 - getting hooked once I actually tried it.
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Funny, because I mostly dance Casino these days as we have a strong Cuban scene here with instructors and DJs from Havana and Afrocuban specialists. Although I do dance LA/PR style salsa as well when I get the opportunity. So I dance a lot of Son, Casino, some Rumba (very much a work in progress), a bit of Danzon, Cha cha etc. Certainly helps my body movement, even though it makes my LA go a bit Newyork-ee.

I dance both a-tiempo and contratiempo.

I'm just as comfortable dancing with a Cuban, or a pro from LA, PR or NY.

I'm sure if I moved to NY I'd be dancing NY/PR style exclusively, just happens to be the scene I'm in at the moment.
 
Myst - to put things into context, I've been dancing for 8 years, and was first exposed to proper Cuban motion 6 years ago - late I know, however I've been practicing it almost daily over those last 6 years.

Sometimes it's simply not visible - it's still there, however. Trained Cali dancers do venture into Afro-Folkloric dance and it's actually an integral part of their training. Cuban motion is also a must for salsa training at a high level, and I've seen countless Cali style videos. The Cuban Motion is there, however it's not nearly as obvious as what you see in the NY scene. You're "trained" to see the NY style as a good example of Cuban motion, but it's certainly not the only example. Cali dancers must learn it, even if focussing on sharp footwork, look carefully and you'll see body movement elements that simply wouldn't be possible without having fully internalised CM technique (and I am talking CM, not CBM).

Also the assertion that all weight must be fully transferred is simply not true. There's an added skill in partial weight transfers. One example is a ball-change, another is an advanced form of the hook with reverse turn.
 
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azzey said:
Funny, because I mostly dance Casino these days as we have a strong Cuban scene here with instructors and DJs from Havana and Afrocuban specialists. Although I do dance LA/PR style salsa as well when I get the opportunity. So I dance a lot of Son, Casino, some Rumba (very much a work in progress), a bit of Danzon, Cha cha etc. Certainly helps my body movement, even though it makes my LA go a bit Newyork-ee.

I dance both a-tiempo and contratiempo.

I'm just as comfortable dancing with a Cuban, or a pro from LA, PR or NY.

I'm sure if I moved to NY I'd be dancing NY/PR style exclusively, just happens to be the scene I'm in at the moment.
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That's awesome, of all the salsa styles, which do you actually prefer and why? (I am assuming what you dance most often might have a leg up just out of habit).
 
Jag75 said:
Myst - to put things into context, I've been dancing for 8 years, and was first exposed to proper Cuban motion 6 years ago - late I know, however I've been practicing it almost daily over those last 6 years.

Sometimes it's simply not visible - it's still there, however. Trained Cali dancers do venture into Afro-Folkloric dance and it's actually an integral part of their training. Cuban motion is also a must for salsa training at a high level, and I've seen countless Cali style videos. The Cuban Motion is there, however it's not nearly as obvious as what you see in the NY scene. You're "trained" to see the NY style as a good example of Cuban motion, but it's certainly not the only example. Cali dancers must learn it, even if focussing on sharp footwork, look carefully and you'll see body movement elements that simply wouldn't be possible without having fully internalised CM technique (and I am talking CM, not CBM).

Also the assertion that all weight must be fully transferred is simply not true. There's an added skill in partial weight transfers. One example is a ball-change, another is an advanced form of the hook with reverse turn.
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I addressed partial weight transfer and no weight transfer (such as tabs) while retaining Cuban motion in previous posts. This can only be done once a dancer has mastered Cuban Motion through a proper foundation. Cali dancing does not have any true Cuban Motion. Their basic step won't allow such growth since it is rooted on a different philosophy and designed to explore a very different paradigm of body movement, or in fact, lack of body movement.

Don't rush to dismiss my view because you have more years of experience. I wasn't exaggerating when I mentioned my abilities and deficiencies ;)
 
Myst said:
That's awesome, of all the salsa styles, which do you actually prefer and why? (I am assuming what you dance most often might have a leg up just out of habit).
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To be honest I love them all. Each is a different flavour to be tasted. Particularly musicality wise. Dancing for me is about the music and matching that to the dance and the partner. So when the music changes I want to change how I dance to it.

I love Timba but I love Salsa Dura as well. Not such a big fan of all Mambo but it's growing on me. I started with NY style about 12 years ago. Then shifted over to LA style just over 11 years ago, but still dancing PR and sometimes NY style with NY followers now and again to retain the different connection feel and other aspects. Also started Cuban salsa around 11 years ago. I've taken lessons from specialist instructors and always aim to get as close to the source as possible.

LA style and Cuban style are two different extremes so that's been very interesting for me to specialise in. I used to dance them equally but last few years there's much more Cuban than LA opportunities locally, though I travel occasionally.

Now more people in the UK are dancing a form of on2 and LA style seems on the decline it may become a reason to shift focus again.

I love LA style for the sharp dynamic movements, the constant change of pace, the spins, the elastic band connection, the drama. I love Cuban style for the smooth, light feel, the body movement, circular motion, more emphasis on cuban motion, the mix of Rumba, Son, Mambo, Cha cha elements within Timba. I dance Cuban salsa predominantly to Timba and cross-body for other Salsa music.
 
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SmallSteps3000 said:
Ah! Okay...i see and understand now... Cuban motion is the figure 8 pattern created by the feet pressing into the ground and the bending of the knees,. The figure 8 pattern is most noticable in the hips but also transfers some energy to the upper body.

Whereas Contra is just natural movement of the upper body when stepping on one leg. Just like walking (as you stated earlier)!

CM is primarily in the hips, while CBM is primarily in the upper body. I think I've got it now!!
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Contra body is an action that is intiated with the whole side of the body and is NOT isolated to the upper body only.The word "shoulder " was eliminated from the term due to the fact that ,it was often mis-construed that only the shldr moved, Its now termed as " left or right side " in its description

CM may be danced without CBM as its not always an integral part of that exercise. For e.g if one were dancing a continuous side action, then CBM would not be part of that exercise.
CBM was developed in the BR world and was ( and is ) used for negotiating outside partner positions without losing body contact .

And, here, in its simplest form, its used when we walk and "swing " the arms .

And your comment about pressing the feet etc is slightly incorrect.

In slow motion.. place your left foot slightly forward, using only the inside edge of "ball " with a flexed knee. As you transfer the weight from the standing leg, gradually straighten the leg receiving the weight, Transfer that " lift ", up and thru the upper body ....presto... CM .
 
terence said:
Contra body is an action that is intiated with the whole side of the body and is NOT isolated to the upper body only.The word "shoulder " was eliminated from the term due to the fact that ,it was often mis-construed that only the shldr moved, Its now termed as " left or right side " in its description

CM may be danced without CBM as its not always an integral part of that exercise. For e.g if one were dancing a continuous side action, then CBM would not be part of that exercise.
CBM was developed in the BR world and was ( and is ) used for negotiating outside partner positions without losing body contact .

And, here, in its simplest form, its used when we walk and "swing " the arms .

And your comment about pressing the feet etc is slightly incorrect.

In slow motion.. place your left foot slightly forward, using only the inside edge of "ball " with a flexed knee. As you transfer the weight from the standing leg, gradually straighten the leg receiving the weight, Transfer that " lift ", up and thru the upper body ....presto... CM .
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Can you explain what a continuous side action means and what it would look like?

And when stepping forward On1 with the left foot, is the left knee supposed to bend inward towards your other leg or no?

I find that my knee bends inward when stepping on the inside edge of foot, unless a slightly pivot that same foot out, then my knee is more neutral.
 
SmallSteps3000 said:
And when stepping forward On1 with the left foot, is the left knee supposed to bend inward towards your other leg or no?
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Don't do it ballroom style:


Salsa Contra-Body Motion is like this (though it's heavily over-exaggerated in the video):


When you do the basic step when dancing the motion needs to be subtle, natural and related to your steps:


i.e. Don't think about it when dancing. Let your body do the right thing.
 
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Yeah always have turn out on your feet. This means your knees will have to turn out too. Definitely don't bend it inward at least.
 
premier said:
Yeah always have turn out on your feet. This means your knees will have to turn out too. Definitely don't bend it inward at least.
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My advice is consult your instructor on this, as such instructions are easily misinterpreted. You don't want to dance Salsa with feet like a penguin.
 
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