Shines Eclipsed

calichris10 said:
What??? No way...this guy looks like a ballroom dancer trying to dance salsa.
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Well, he's not dancing on this specific clip. He's making a few points on how to correct typical mistakes people make with the NYon2 basic step.

He succinctly addresses many of the common problems: taking big steps, incorrectly shifting the center of gravity while dancing, the relationship between the basic steps and turns, etc. I have an extensive collection of instructional salsa DVD's (over 200 videos), and not a single one of them mentions the concept of dancing from the center - which is something I learned first from Frankie Martinez and have not seen any other salsa instructor in NY/NJ teach (I haven't of course attend them all, but certainly a few high profile schools). I was delighted when I heard Jay elaborate on the same concept here. I find his content top nock, and a great supplement to Frankie's classes, and that is a HUGE compliment.

In other videos he demonstrates body movement, and he's got plenty of "sabor" :)

 
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Myst said:
In other videos he demonstrates body movement, and he's got plenty of "sabor" :)

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Yes, he moves well in this vid...but that is not the same as sabor. Any trained dancer can move well and do isolations. Sabor is something that comes from within. A lot of people learn all these moves thinking that the movements come from outside..your arms, legs, hips etc. but really they should come from within...when/how you are inspired to move. Yes in order to do this well you need technique but then something has to happen where you let go and dance from the heart...Otherwise it is just movement.
 
calichris10 said:
Yes, he moves well in this vid...but that is not the same as sabor. Any trained dancer can move well and do isolations. Sabor is something that comes from within. A lot of people learn all these moves thinking that the movements come from outside..your arms, legs, hips etc. but really they should come from within...when/how you are inspired to move. Yes in order to do this well you need technique but then something has to happen where you let go and dance from the heart...Otherwise it is just movement.
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Discussing who has "sabor" or not is opening a can of worms, it is an illusive criteria that is hard to qualify and quantify, much like "passion" is :)
At the very least I hope that clip shows his body movement is far from "ballroomized"
 
Myst said:
Discussing who has "sabor" or not is opening a can of worms, it is an illusive criteria that is hard to qualify and quantify, much like "passion" is :)
At the very least I hope that clip shows his body movement is far from "ballroomized"
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yeah for me that vid shows nice body action but I don't see "sabor".
Any trained International Ballroom dancer could do what he did in the vid. Body action does not = sabor
Are you sure you are Cuban?
 
Myst said:
He succinctly addresses many of the common problems: taking big steps, incorrectly shifting the center of gravity while dancing, the relationship between the basic steps and turns, etc. I have an extensive collection of instructional salsa DVD's (over 200 videos), and not a single one of them mentions the concept of dancing from the center - which is something I learned first from Frankie Martinez and have not seen any other salsa instructor in NY/NJ teach (I haven't of course attend them all, but certainly a few high profile schools).
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Really surprised that no other instructors you've taken classes from in NY have made pointers on the ramifications of moving the core. It's usually something covered in beginner classes. Perhaps you're already expected to know this at the level of class you're doing?
 
azzey said:
Really surprised that no other instructors you've taken classes from in NY have made pointers on the ramifications of moving the core. It's usually something covered in beginner classes. Perhaps you're already expected to know this at the level of class you're doing?
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As odd as it might sound to you, that has been my experience. I won't mention school names since it is not my intention to discredit anyone online. But watch videos of people dancing in the socials in NYC (regular folk at all levels), and you will see that many walk the 1 and 5 pretty far, which basically will shift the center of gravity and cause skidding...

I had this issue for a long time, until I was able to correct it in Frankie's class. I wished I had seen Jay's video 6 months earlier...
 
Myst said:
As odd as it might sound to you, that has been my experience. I won't mention school names since it is not my intention to discredit anyone online. But watch videos of people dancing in the socials in NYC (regular folk at all levels), and you will see that many walk the 1 and 5 pretty far, which basically will shift the center of gravity and cause skidding...

I had this issue for a long time, until I was able to correct it in Frankie's class. I wished I had seen Jay's video 6 months earlier...
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It's odd, because my first NY style instructor enforced short steps. Whereas LA style is known for using a longer slot and often a longer stride in the middle part, although front and back steps are also to be kept tight.

It's something I have struggled with, but mainly not through lack of knowledge or capability after my first year (Casino helps with short steps for everything) just hard to resist enjoying the feeling of using more space when possible. One of those phases you go through and still go through sometimes, as long as there are no cameras around. Heh.

Whereas for NY style use of minimal energy and minimal space seems core to the non-performance social style. Perhaps the perennial problem of dancers imitating performers on the social floor?
 
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azzey said:
It's something I have struggled with, but mainly not through lack of knowledge or capability after my first year (Casino helps with short steps for everything) just hard to resist enjoying the feeling of using more space when possible.
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1) You don't shift your weight forward and backward during forward basic? What's the point of it then? How will partner feel it?
2) If you do - What's the difference between longer and and shorter steps, provided you change them all proportionally?

I just experimented and small steps work the same way as large ones. According to floor space and speed of music one can change them at will. And should.
 
azzey said:
Whereas for NY style use of minimal energy and minimal space seems core to the non-performance social style. Perhaps the perennial problem of dancers imitating performers on the social floor?
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Such a potent observation made by both you and Myst!

Is this perhaps the reason why many NY performers seem as if they do not utilize the stage as much when they dance?

Almost every single NY performer uses a minimal amount of room when dancing. I can't say whether this is positive or negative.
 
terence said:
Its essentially the same as the fwd stepping action.

In a continuous side action to the same side, then the non supporting leg may close to the standing leg or feet,left slightly apart

And yes, the knee will veer towards the standing leg. This is a natural occurrence, created by how one has placed the side/fwd step , to inside edge/whole-foot .
Continuous side foot positions, are not as prevalent in much of salsa. Merengue and Son, give more opportunities .
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Great! Makes sense!

And should one turn their foot slightly out when stepping on inside edge of foot?
 
Myst said:
Actually, the "Baila Conmigo" studio in West New York is about 10 blocks from my house... Small world isn't it?

And even better, I know a girl that takes classes with them. She's also an accomplished NYon2 dancer with over 12 years of dance experience, and we've discussed in detail how the dance mechanics of Cali vs on2 differ, especially in terms of weight transfer (which basically is the essence of Afro-Caribbean dances)...

In my experience dancing with Colombians in NJ (Elizabeth is basically Little Colombia), they struggle to dance to slow songs. They can't keep their timing and have a propensity to speed up - especially rushing out of the 7 since they aren't fully transferring weight on each step - not to mention a complete inability to do a figure 8 with their ribcage which translates to zero Cuban Motion... Just as shown in every single video of pro Cali dancers shared in this thread.

You see, slow tempo is not kind to fakery and poor mechanics, that's why beginners rather dance to fast music because it allows them to fudge everything and give the illusion of good technique, when in reality their fundamentals are not developed...
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You're right! Their ribcages don't really move at all!
 
SmallSteps3000 said:
Almost every single NY performer uses a minimal amount of room when dancing. I can't say whether this is positive or negative.
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It's just a very bad math. I start to regret removing my ban on nystyle threads. :)
 
I could be wrong but I couldn't help but notice that if you compare the Cuban rumba and the Colombian dancers from earlier with the Frankie Martinez and Franklin Diaz routines, you'll see the latter two really do not move about the floor much at all. They stay pretty centered-- as Myst and Azzey point out.

Is my thinking this wrong?
 
SmallSteps3000 said:
You're from new york, Smejmoon?o_O

Even better... you're a moderator, Smejmoon?!!:eek: :muted:
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No, he is not either of those. :p

Only three (active) NY members, myself, londongirl and thepresenceon2. And a sort-of-NY member, Myst :p (NJ, where he lives, is close enough to NY, but not quite :p).
 
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