Salsa open diary

Amun said:
@Offbeat @Chris_Yannick is NY actually this good? I saw quite a few times on forum that the scene is really high-skilled there. I wonder why salsa otherwise seems to have low teaching standards globally. I will probably focus on other dances to improve things I know I lack and hopefully will move forward in salsa too. I'm trying to learn alone but I feel it won't get me very far :D
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Can't comment on the NYC scene now but many good teachers and schools were founded in NYC.

Many schools in different cities tried to copy the NYC model but lacked the talent to do so well.

The low teaching standard comes from students becoming Salsa teachers before they are ready. Given that you don't need any qualifications to start teaching, students get a watered down product.
 
Got back from the first night of San Francisco SBK festival. The dancing ended around 8:00am in the morning. There was still about 30-40 people dancing. Three people from salsaforum.

It was super crowded. It was tough to get dances with people you wanted to dance with. You had to be super aggressive. However there were always leaders and followers available. I saw followers do quiet a bit of asking. The stars were out in full force. Though I didn't recognize who they were except for the circle I didn't know Adolfo was also attending.

Time for rant. I am really hating the video recording. I think Steve has three or four helpers doing the shooting. First night I think they were focusing on the stars and popular/friends of Steve. However all the recording activity takes up quiet a space on the crowded floor. And bright lights they use can be distracting. People were forming small circle and big circle around dancers the video was shooting.

Bachata room was packed. Almost rivaled salsa in attendence, but salsa has bigger floor. The AC was on but the number of people made rooms hot. Zouk was also popular. However i found zouk dancing funny. Kizomba was smallest room.

The people sitting by the stage last night had many beginners.
 
Offbeat said:
Time for rant. I am really hating the video recording. I think Steve has three or four helpers doing the shooting. First night I think they were focusing on the stars and popular/friends of Steve. However all the recording activity takes up quiet a space on the crowded floor. And bright lights they use can be distracting. People were forming small circle and big circle around dancers the video was shooting.
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+1

Another reason why having stars at festivals is the WORST.

I wanted to write up a separate post about how stars should be banned at festivals, but this pretty much sums up why I think they are so destructive to the entire Salsa scene.

StarMambo (or some subsidiary) in Europe takes videos of the same stars over and over again when there are HUNDREDS of good dances. No, I don’t want to see any more videos of Panagiotis/Talal/Edyta/Myrto/Fadi/Terry thank you very much and see them rotate dancing with each other at every festival…. JEEZUS…..
 
Chris_Yannick said:
+1

Another reason why having stars at festivals is the WORST.

I wanted to write up a separate post about how stars should be banned at festivals, but this pretty much sums up why I think they are so destructive to the entire Salsa scene.

StarMambo (or some subsidiary) in Europe takes videos of the same stars over and over again when there are HUNDREDS of good dances. No, I don’t want to see any more videos of Panagiotis/Talal/Edyta/Myrto/Fadi/Terry thank you very much and see them rotate dancing with each other at every festival…. JEEZUS…..
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Agree. From social dancing experience having stars around is a negative. The non-hardcore dancers want to watch the stars social dancing and the video shooting exacerbates it. Frankly speaking only a subset of stars are as good social dancers as the better social dancers.

From organizers' perspective if they banned stars and don't invite starmambo, their festivals won't be successful. Less people will show up and it will be difficult to break even for them.

The number of people attending San Francisco SBK has been increasing every year. A lot of it must be due to a average dancer watching all those starmanbo videos. This year looking at the crowd in Salsa room alone, I am sure it has exceeded Paris congress. A lot of people from different parts of USA which I have not seen before. It helps them that last night there were 80 performances. I went two hours late to social dancing. Hoping the crowd would somewhat ease. Saturday nights are most crowded. There was 9 hours of social dancing since the clock moved back last night. Plus 3 hours of social dancing in the afternoon that I haven't been to yet.

Bachata room had at least 400-500 dancers. Zouk about 150-200. As a leader I danced with a lot more better followers in the last two nights than at Paris congress. Speaking to a follower friend who attends EU festival often, she thought Paris still had better dancing because it has best leads in her experience. I guess that's the difference between experience as a leader and follower. No doubt Paris city has a lot of good leads. Don't know how many attend the Paris congress.

Among the stars, I feel that followers are better social dancers than the leaders. Saw some old timers last night. I was surprised to see James Cobbo. A lot more dancers in their 40s and 50s (esp leaders) than what I seen in EU. A lot of them still got it and can put younger dancers to shame.
 
Offbeat said:
From organizers' perspective if they banned stars and don't invite starmambo, their festivals won't be successful. Less people will show up and it will be difficult to break even for them.
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The big congress organizers are star-hungry.

Inviting stars takes a huge chunk out of the organizer’s pockets. Yet they believe that they’ll recoup the costs by having the same artists teach workshops, which will get more people to buy tickets.

I personally think the big congress format is a colossal failure, both from a social dancing standpoint and from a financial standpoint. But it looks nice I guess.

When I worked for a big congress organizer, I was told that after all of the costs associated with booking a 5+star venue along with inviting and flying artists and performers were tallied up, that they were barely breaking even.
 
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Chris_Yannick said:
The big congress organizers are star-hungry.

Inviting stars takes a huge chunk out of the organizer’s pockets. Yet they believe that they’ll recoup the costs by having the same artists teach workshops, which will get more people to buy tickets.

I personally think the big congress format is a colossal failure, both from a social dancing standpoint and from a financial standpoint. But it looks nice I guess.

When I worked for a big congress organizer, I was told that after all of the costs associated with booking a 5+star venue along with inviting and flying artists and performers were tallied up, that they were barely breaking even.
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Per my back of envelope calculations, SF organizers are more than breaking even with all the performers attending the event. The rest of full pass holders, the challenge participants and social dancers who only by the night pass are gravy on the top. This is the fourth edition. They have been in profits right from the first edition. Only the A list stars cost a lot. I haven’t looked up who is headlining the SF SBK. I bet it is no more than 5. Plus about 8 or 10 DJs who also get paid well. Upper limit for their total cost can’t be more than $50K to $60K. Performers buying performers pass should easily cover that.

The old Congress format in the USA struggle to break even. You had to pay high fees for the two top bands to perform and one local band. At the time top pros weren’t paid much. Other logistics costs were higher. Therefore the money being made depended on how many people attended. Albert Torress barely broke even at the LA Congress (only one which he organized himself without partner like in other city). Over 5000 people would attend. But Albert wasn’t a good businessman.
 
Today I happen to look at the step counter on my phone. It was in my pocket all the time during the weekend Congress. Here is what I discovered.

Friday 14.33Kms
(4 hours of salsa at Thursday night preparty from midnight to 4am and 1.5 hours of Tango on Friday night from 11pm to 12.30am)

Saturday -15.73Kms
(6 hours of friday opening night from 2am to 8am)

Sunday - 17.26kms
(6.5 hours of salsa on second night on Saturday from 1.30am to 8am)

Monday - 9.8Kms
(4.5 hours of salsa on Sunday the last night from 3.30am to 8am)

That’s like running a half marathon every day of the festival!!

My estimate would have been less than half without the measuring tool.

Mostly chilling on the last night. Sitting out three songs and dancing one. Still it shows about 10Kms. Overall I danced less than I normally do due to being rusted from not much dancing since PISC.
 
Offbeat said:
Today I happen to look at the step counter on my phone. It was in my pocket all the time during the weekend Congress. Here is what I discovered.

Friday 14.33Kms
(4 hours of salsa at Thursday night preparty from midnight to 4am and 1.5 hours of Tango on Friday night from 11pm to 12.30am)

Saturday -15.73Kms
(6 hours of friday opening night from 2am to 8am)

Sunday - 17.26kms
(6.5 hours of salsa on second night on Saturday from 1.30am to 8am)

Monday - 9.8Kms
(4.5 hours of salsa on Sunday the last night from 3.30am to 8am)

That is almost twice of what I would have estimated without measuring tool. I was mostly chilling on the last night. Sitting out three songs and dancing one. Not sure how accurate the step count is. Overall I danced less than I normally do due to being rusted from not much dancing since PISC.
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So you move one meter every second? Sounds like a hectic dance :p
 
Jaime_Pipoca said:
o_Oo_Oo_O
I don't think Caleños even dance that fast.
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Not withstanding that @TikiTaka ‘s conclusion is flawed and bit exaggerated tongue in cheek:

I believe the step counting algorithm on smart phone depends on measuring gyrometer and accerometer readings (in addition to GPS location measurements). Generally the algorithms calculate approximate equivalent of step counts. The step count and distance traveled will be fairly accurate when walking or running linearly outdoors. In other instances, the step count is more for providing equivalent calories expended. Vertical displacement (height) of feet is higher when dancing salsa than walking, if dancers are actively using their feet including shines. I think step counter algorithms must use the time and amount of movement to derive their results for steps and calories. Therefore three or four step counts is not necessarily indication of actual distance covered or moved but equivalent of calories to move that distance with average step movement/size. If I am marching in place, I could do it lifting the feet only 6” from the ground or 18”. I am not moving one inch forward or backward, but energy for marching with 18” will be more than 6”, if the number of marching steps per minute are the same. If I were designing algorithm for step count and calories burnt, I would take that into account and not give results that the two are identical.

If we put a fitness tracker on calena style dancer, and ask them to dance nonstop for 30 minutes, am fairly certain the trackers will show equivalent of at least 3km to 3.5km at the lower end. Easy walking pace is generally 12.5 minutes a Km. Moderate walking is around 10.5 minutes per km. Average person can jog between 6 to 8 minutes a km. Intermediate runner can do it in 4 to 5 minutes. A calena dancer definitely is closer to intermediate runner than average person jogging. One meter a second is only 3.6kms an hour (60 meters a minute). That is 1.8 kms in 30 minutes …. slower than a lazy walker.

Medium tempo salsa is 170 bpm? You could easily be taking 3 salsa steps per second. Calenas (cali style) clearly dance faster with much more footwork, which is their distinct hallmark. Put on a faster tempo music, a calena might end up equivalent of 4 or 5kms in 30 minutes if measured by step counter :) A calena dancing at speed less than one meter a second would be like watching slow motion dancing :D
 
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Bostontraitor said:
yo, guys, do you think that dancing pachanga can hurt your knees? if your knees are fragile.
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I would just try it. If you feel pain, then stop.

In the beginning, I felt a little bit of discomfort mostly from trying to bash my foot into the ground. After refining my technique, it was much smoother and less impactful. I also actively work on strengthening the joint so I don’t feel it anymore, but your mileage may vary.
 
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Offbeat said:
may involve traveling to other city or country. But it will take trial and error to find right instructor for you.

As opposed to salsa where I didn't think any of the accessible instructors or schools could teach something useful, when it comes to Tango I have continued taking group classes/workshops on and off for years.
I know others in the dance scene who make frequent (once a month or quarter) trips 2000 or 3000 miles away to learn from a particular instructor.
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On their way to their march 12th @5:17 am to March 23rd @3:15 pm home in Provence, no doubt.
 
Chris_Yannick said:
I would just try it. If you feel pain, then stop.

In the beginning, I felt a little bit of discomfort mostly from trying to bash my foot into the ground. After refining my technique, it was much smoother and less impactful. I also actively work on strengthening the joint so I don’t feel it anymore, but your mileage may vary.
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To me, i need to be very careful when I switch my weight from one side to another side or front to back. If I don't do it right, it hurts my knees. So I am very cautious about Pachanga at the moment since I am a beginner for it. Wonder any one of you had injured that way.
 
Bostontraitor said:
To me, i need to be very careful when I switch my weight from one side to another side or front to back. If I don't do it right, it hurts my knees. So I am very cautious about Pachanga at the moment since I am a beginner for it. Wonder any one of you had injured that way.
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Are there any movements in salsa that are painful for you?
 
Bostontraitor said:
Salsa? Not really.
Sensual bachata sometimes hurt my knees especially when the girl doesn't center her weight and put it on me. Since then, I am very careful not to do anything crazy
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Hmm.. I never felt pain in the knees training Pachanga. But I think it is important to get the right technique.

How are you with putting all of your weight on one leg? If you can do that without pain, Pachanga shouldn't be a problem as it requires less weight.
 
random thought..how do you finish a dance in cuban salsa/timba, the non-sensual way like dips :) They dont like the sensual moves where I dance ciban salsa here :)
 
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