Salsa and the Martial Arts

[DJ Ara]

I think it is that leads are grapplers and follows are strikers. Getting stomped on by one of those stiletto heels will make any
grappler tap out.

The followers can be so dangerous that they can even strike other dancers using anything from their high heels, elbows and long hair! Talk about multiple opponent scenarios....LOL!

 

[DJ Ara]

I knew someone would eventually come up with it. Here it is: - "salsa meets kung fu"! LOL!

 

[UnlikelySalsero]

Way over my pay grade to debate which MA is better. In most street one-on-one situations if you're a 5-10 year practitioner, you'll take me out with my 18 months no matter which art I'm pursuing. Your experience will smoke me, but at my age the training is as much for the mental calm and ability to have some defensive skills in the rare case it is needed.

I totally agree with DJ Aria that in a "in the moment" club situation, anybody with some defense/fighting skills is much better off than someone who has zero training (most pushy guys in a club.) But that's a different discussion.

Back to the original point...

I'll still say people with MA skills have an easier time learning to dance. Virtually all MA styles work on balance, body control, timing, and practice discipline, and having those skills are a win for dancers.

Clearly lots of dancers here either have or are pursuing some MA training, even if they are not doing it competitively. Alternately, many cross-train in other dances, which is also a win from my POV.

 

[DJ Ara]

Way over my pay grade to debate which MA is better.

True. No one can because least of all there are just too many martial arts out there; very few people who think they practice a single art like karate (dozens of styles) and kung fu (hundreds of styles), have ever really practiced them. In a world where people do not have a point of reference regarding a combat art they practice, how can they conclude which one is better, especially when they have not practiced nor have comprehension of hundreds of arts out there?

Having said that, if people asked me my opinion as regards what to practice, then I would recommend one of the various kung fu styles I am familiar with through practice and others that I am familiar with through personal research. All of this because I was simply lucky enough to cross paths with real masters.

In most street one-on-one situations if you're a 5-10 year practitioner, you'll take me out with my 18 months no matter which art I'm pursuing. Your experience will smoke me, but at my age the training is as much for the mental calm and ability to have some defensive skills in the rare case it is needed.

You are not too old for kung fu training. If you want to have more than just "some" defensive skills, then a style like Wing Chun, Chow Gar, Five Ancestor Fist, Pak Mei, Hsing I, Pak kua, Chen Style Tai Chi (and there are more) will not only give you potent skills, but also result in a better health and quality of life as you the years go by. Of course, there would remain the problem of finding decent school, but I am sure that you are more likely to find genuine training in LA than many other US cities.

I totally agree with DJ Aria that in a "in the moment" club situation, anybody with some defense/fighting skills is much better off than someone who has zero training (most pushy guys in a club.) But that's a different discussion.

I was actually going further than that in implying that a kung fu master who does not fight in no holds barred sports tournaments, could no be written off so easily as regards an encounter with an MMA fighter, if the scenario was changed to a bar or street fight, because the organics of non-sport fighting are often very different.

Back to the original point...

I'll still say people with MA skills have an easier time learning to dance. Virtually all MA styles work on balance, body control, timing, and practice discipline, and having those skills are a win for dancers.

Clearly lots of dancers here either have or are pursuing some MA training, even if they are not doing it competitively. Alternately, many cross-train in other dances, which is also a win from my POV.

The legendary karate master Masutasu Oyama, the founder of the Kyokushinkai Style of Karate believed that dance skill and rhythm were good faculties for karate practitioners.

 

[Kading]

To put it in another perspective. I train kickboxing and I notice improvements in my kickboxing ever since I started dancing.
I have more balance and am able to move around alot more quicker because I studied a bit about weight changes in dancing etc.

What I really hate about kickboxing (that influences my dancing) is that when I get excited (song is nice etc) I start using alot of explosive leads since well...kickboxing is all about explosive movements.
I have problems controlling my power output, though it's getting better.

 

[Ciaran Hegarty]

What fearsome techniques does a KM guy know that he has to put away in the Octagon?

His gun.

 

[DJ Ara]

A lot of great dancers are also trained in various forms of the martial arts and credit their dance skills to their martial arts training. This interesting article explores the relationship between salsa and the martial arts in more detail.

I had no idea that Bruce Lee was a cha cha champion!!

Salsa is the Kung Fu of Dance

http://ilivesalsa.com/blog/salsa-blog-2/kung-fu/salsa-is-the-kung-fu-of-dance

What is Dance? Dance is an art form that refers to the movement of the body in a rhythmic fashion to music. Dancing can be social, ritualistic, spiritual, and expressive in nature.

What are Martial Arts? Martial arts are art forms focusing on the movement of the body as well as conditioning to maximize ability and are often linked with spiritual and ritualistic devotion.

Over the years, I have noticed a number of students have progressed rapidly, while others seemed to lag behind, playing catch up. At first I assumed these dancers just took it more seriously than the others. It wasn’t till I started befriending these students that a common theme emerged about their history: Martial Arts. Just about every one of the better dancers, at some point, had taken Martial Arts classes. Having a history in Martial Arts myself, it was astounding to finally notice the similarities.

Kung Fu and Salsa are fluid and graceful but full of energy and intensity. Both require focus, understanding of your surroundings, and knowing when to act. But when most people think of Salsa or Kung Fu, an image of high energy, high impact flips, dips, tricks, and spins is what arises. To those who really know either art, they realize it’s not what you see in the movies or on “Dancing With The Stars”. These styles have both active and passive characteristics. The explosive energy of salsa and kung fu is illuminated in its flashiness; something that takes a lot of stamina to execute. These include the more active moves like flips, tricks, and other high energy techniques. Conversely, the martial art Tai Chi is similar to the smoothness possible with salsa. This style identifies with the natural movements of the body.

No one style of salsa (L.A. Style, New York Style, Cuban Style, Texas Style, etc.) is an exact match in either extreme; moreover no dancer is an exact match but rather a coloring of both. On1 L.A. Style Salsa has a distinct high energy flavor; showcasing the fastest, most energetic, most awe inspiring moves. On2 New York Style is characteristically a smooth natural graceful dance. The moves are “flowy” and follow the feel of the music. The moves are deliberate but malleable forming into something new with little effort.

How do they Relate

Together they have very similar attributes. Choreography in dance is equivalent to Forms in martial arts. Both take a systematic approach, exploring the most relevant moves to epitomize the style. Furthermore dance and martial arts are social. In salsa you could call it “social salsa”, “couples dancing” or just “dancing”. In Martial Arts this would be sparring. Leading and following exist in both areas just with different terms. The terms of Social Salsa are that one person is the leader for this song and then we break. In Sparring the leader and follower roles fluctuate between aggressor and defender.

Looking at Influence on Society

Take a look at pop culture. Martial Arts and Dance have been intertwined for years in some cases centuries. Most recent is the advent of break dancing and hip hop. Originally gaining notoriety in the 70s and 80s the music form nurtured a dance style. But where did these moves come from; what was the inspiration? A particular category of films became every increasingly popular throughout the 70s and that was Kung Fu. Many of the traditional moves of Shaolin Kung Fu that had existed for about 1500 years were adapted and transformed into a new form of self expression. Look at any old Kung Fu movie and guaranteed you’ve probably seen one of the moves on “So You Think You Can Dance”. From the windmill, to the twist, to the aerial, numerous moves have been re-purposed.

Martial Arts and Dance History

Let’s take a further step back; in fact quite a ways back. Some time after the colonization of South America, African slaves developed a martial art system that masqueraded as a dance. This art form is known as Capoeira. Slave masters forbade slaves from practicing martial arts lest they rise up and overtake them. As a result a “dance” was created. Being a dance, music plays a large role for the players (for all intensive purposes, players are “fighters”) in the Roda, basically the ring. The tone, speed, and energy of the music can heighten the players’ interaction.

Now this isn’t just some theory I made up or an exercise in semantics but can be exemplified by the lives of many martial artists/dancers. The most well known Martial Artist and Dancer of all would be Bruce Lee. In 1958 Bruce Lee was the Cha Cha Champion of Hong Kong. If you know anything of his work, you know that he was a premiere martial artist and arguably the best. Another well known actor who dabbled in dance is Jean Claude Van Damme. He came from a ballet background but realized that his abilities could easily be remodeled for the big screen. The remodel was to integrate martial arts.

More than Meets the Eye chechuchooo*

Just as in martial arts, Salsa is more than its flashy reputation. There is a connection with the dance; a way to explore and exemplify life. While much of salsa we see on TV is high energy, high impact flips, dips, and tricks, that is only one area of salsa. The explosive energy of salsa is illuminated in its flashiness; something that takes a lot of practice to make it work. This style can be equated to Kung Fu. Explosive energy, showcasing what the human body can do. On the opposite end of the spectrum, salsa can be more akin to Tai Chi. Methodically placed movements that demonstrate natural and smooth actions. In Salsa as in Kung Fu, there are many styles; L.A. Style, N.Y. Style, Cuban Style, Texas Style, London Style, etc. None of these styles exactly matches high energy versus natural and smooth. Instead they exhibit a coloring of both. On1 L.A. Style Salsa has a distinct high energy flavor; showcasing the fastest, most energetic, most awe-inspiring moves. On2 New York Style is characteristically a smooth, natural, and graceful dance. The moves are “flowy” and follow a natural course; deliberate but malleable forming into something new with little effort.

And now for the money

So you may be asking how does this relate to me and what should I do? Think about what the professionals do both in martial arts and salsa or other forms of dance. They practice, they dance with many people, they find great teachers, they STRETCH which is extremely useful, but most importantly they believe in what they are doing. What does that mean? It’s about state of mind. A martial artist after years of training understands his/her body, knows how to move even the most seldom used muscles, can listen to their body and anticipate reactions but more than that can focus into becoming the supreme definition of a martial artist. A Salsero y Salsera must listen to their bodies and understand how it moves, but you also have to believe in it. Don’t think “Ok now im dancing salsa and salsa is this this this and my teacher said this this this.” Those are good pathways to follow but the destination is of your choosing. Don’t get stuck in the rut of learning one style only. Test yourself with new things then analyze what you like. What is your style of salsa? Is it smooth and sultry? Is it high paced and energetic? Is it somewhere in between? Or have you created something brand new?

*if you couldn’t figure out what “chechuchooo” is, it’s the sound the Transformers make when they transform. Plus that was a quote from Transformers.

I just came across something that is very relevant to Sabrosura's post and this great thread, in general.

The Wing Chun style of kung fu is the system I have the most experience in and it is something that Sabrosura has tried out which may in turn have contributed in inspiring her to start this thread.

Here is a short and very well made and entertaining documentary from China - English subtitles - that talks little bit about this art and its philosophy (concepts and principles) and parallels it with life in general. In my humble opinion, many of wisdoms in this art can easily be applied to salsa and one's approach to it, and that is why I am posting this link:

 

[Salsa Bear]

Here is a short and very well made and entertaining documentary from China - English subtitles - that talks little bit about this art and its philosophy (concepts and principles) and parallels it with life in general. In my humble opinion, many of wisdoms in this art can easily be applied to salsa and one's approach to it.

Though I wasn't aware of a salsa/martial arts connection when I discovered Latin music and dance, for some reason I assumed they were on a similar plane. In other words, I thought there was something noble about la musica, something that might be described as philosophical or spiritual.

Thank God Kung Fu hasn't been commercialized. Then again, it probably has, but at least there are those who still follow the original vision, just as there are people in the Caribbean who know there's more to el baile than overcrowded congresses and thirteen different World Salsa championships.

 

[DJ Ara]

Though I wasn't aware of a salsa/martial arts connection when I discovered Latin music and dance, for some reason I assumed they were on a similar plane. In other words, I thought there was something noble about la musica, something that might be described as philosophical or spiritual.

That would be one of the parallels with a martial art(s) like kung fu, but the philosophical and spiritual aspects in this martial art(s) go a lot deeper than salsa dancing.

Thank God Kung Fu hasn't been commercialized. Then again, it probably has,

You are right, it has and a lot moreso than salsa unfortunately. The problem is that by its nature any given kung fu style has its complex and interconnecting concepts and principles. If one messes with one of them, then it just brings down the quality and authenticity of everything else s/he does in regards to training it and applying it. The proof of the puding is in the application and that is why so many kung fu people, just like their salsa counterparts come down crashing, during the application stage of their chosen arts.

but at least there are those who still follow the original vision, just as there are people in the Caribbean who know there's more to el baile than overcrowded congresses and thirteen different World Salsa championships.

Very true, in the Caribbean, salsa destinations in South America and parts of the US principally, there are people who know the deal, when it comes to salsa dancing and the culture that goes with it.

 

[Salsa Bear]

My favorite martial artist was a hockey player. He lived in Japan for a while and studied some form of karate and sword fighting (aikido?).

He wasn't an aggressive person, and he wasn't a big guy; in fact, I think he was one of our smallest players. But if a player nicknamed "Moose" messed with him, he could drop him on the ice with the coolest hip check. I wish I had some videos.

In fact, hockey is similar to salsa and the martial arts in that it's too commercialized. All the violence ("I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out") is designed to cater to ******* fans.

I don't follow hockey closely any more, but I think the most civilized hockey was traditionally played in Europe. The Russian Red Army team ruled, and they weren't violent players.

So salsa (in the broadest sense of the term) originated in the Caribbean and was yoked to disco in the U.S. The martial arts originated in the Orient and were again watered down in the U.S., where Hollywood ignored Bruce Lee, instead choosing David Carradine to play the lead role in the Kung Fu series.

Hockey originated in Canada (Quebec, I believe), America's back yard. So it essentially had to flee overseas to find a refuge.

Then there's soccer - a British invention that Latinos claimed for their own. It has had a hard time finding traction in the U.S., where it has been similarly commercialized. For example, Seattle's soccer team, the Sounders, are owned by Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen and wear jerseys that advertise Xbox. Kind of like a football team advertising Corn Flakes.

So, yes, I think commercialization (or corporatization) can be seen as a form of cancer that sucks the beauty and originality out of just about everything.

 

[Dalaran1991]

Yoooh lots of aikidoka people here! So happy to see that the connection between the way of peace and dance is obvious to a lot of people! My best buddies in Aikido are all 3-5 years brown-black belt but they refuse to come with me to salsa class even when it's just above our dojo... On the other hand most of the aikido girls at my place loveeee dance, and I had fun dancing with lots of them occasionally.

I think the spatial awareness, ability to connect with your partner and ability to feel the inner energy I learned in Aikido are very useful for dance, though I'm a complete noob at salsa. My Sensei doesn't learn any dance officially but she dances better than some of the pros in our dojo... And if during a dance she happens to be behind you expect a hip throw She keeps saying martial arts are just dancing without the music. Instead, you use the attacks as music to time your movements.

Of course, sometimes this gives me a bad temptation of really, really wanting to do an ikkyo/elbow pin when my partner ends up in front of me with her elbow raised

 

[Kading]

Yoooh lots of aikidoka people here! So happy to see that the connection between the way of peace and dance is obvious to a lot of people! My best buddies in Aikido are all 3-5 years brown-black belt but they refuse to come with me to salsa class even when it's just above our dojo... On the other hand most of the aikido girls at my place loveeee dance, and I had fun dancing with lots of them occasionally.

I think the spatial awareness, ability to connect with your partner and ability to feel the inner energy I learned in Aikido are very useful for dance, though I'm a complete noob at salsa. My Sensei doesn't learn any dance officially but she dances better than some of the pros in our dojo... And if during a dance she happens to be behind you expect a hip throw She keeps saying martial arts are just dancing without the music. Instead, you use the attacks as music to time your movements.

Of course, sometimes this gives me a bad temptation of really, really wanting to do an ikkyo/elbow pin when my partner ends up in front of me with her elbow raised

Salsa will probably increase your 'level' of Aikido as well. I did kickboxing and wing chun kung fu before, and I notice I have a lot better technique in my punches because my ribs are way more flexible by doing body rolls in salsa. Funny how everything is connected

 

[toan-hoang]

Martial arts breeds discipline. Discipline will help you become good at whatever you decide to do.