Salsa and the Martial Arts

[tocatimba]

Hey, most of the fighters have to adapt to the arena they will use their fighting for. The Shaolin monk and the Thai Boxer were fighting under kick boxing rules and in a kick boxing arena.

OK, then this video doesn't have anything to do with your point. You keep on talking about how restrictive the rules are in the
UFC. Why show this video?

Lyoto Machida's main art is karate. If you ask him about it, that is what he will tell you . That particular video of him winning, showed him winning with strikes. Also, there are karate and kung fu systems out there that use boxing like punches as well. Of course, he has BJJ qualifications as well, but I chose that particular fight to show you that he could win solely by striking and he did win using a karate technique.

If all he knew was karate, he wouldn't survive in the UFC. Period. He is an MMA fighter. Yes and MMA fighters win sometimes with strikes (that doesn't make them karatekas) and sometimes they win with submission grappling (that doesn't make the jiu-jitsu guys)

Another factor to keep in mind is that traditional karate and kung fu styles have takedown defenses. The fake schools will probably not teach these techniques and just go for the flashy stuff to get customers - rather like the flash and trash used by some teachers to attract dance students.

Yeah. I hear a lot about how my art has ground fighting in it. But it turns out that they invariably suck in comparison to BJJ. Maybe they have takedown defenses special to their art but the guy in your video did a standard wrestler sprawl. Maybe this is also known as the "crouching tiger takedown defense technique"?

The Wing Chun guy who fought the Thai boxer in the school challenge did so having in mind that his opponent was a striker. The same goes for the challenge in the karate school. Some BJJ and judo guys may have better ground fighting, but what if they got hit in the face and did not get the chance to do their takedown?

They were slapping each other like teenage girls. Their stance would not have stopped a wrestling shoot. Maybe the
BJJ guy would have taken one punch...then their on the ground and the fight is over. Seriously, I don't think you know
much about grappling.



Furthermore, I will mention again that there are a few Wing Chun (and other kung fu) lineages that practice ground fighting. The notion that kung fu styles never address the ground scenario is a myth. Kung fu has been practiced in China for thousands of years and it is a fact that wrestling arts have existed in that country even before kung fu was developed.

Yeah. Even Judo claims they ground fight. (Which in general they don't do very well....I've rolled with lots of
judo black belts and have not had much trouble submitting them). I've never seen or heard of anyone being submitted at the Abu Dhabi submission grappling tournament by someone using Wing Chun ground fighting. Please enlighten me if I'm mistaken.

In some combat scenarios, it is difficult to recognize the individual art being used, but sometimes the principles of the art there. Wing Chun itself is an art that is based around principles, such as the central line theory; jaming theory, etc. Even so, I will agree that the first example did not look like WC, but the guy trains under a wing chun instructor - Alan Orr - the chief instructor for the Chu Sau Lei lineage of Master Robert Chu in the UK (possibly Europe).

OK. So we'l throw this video out.

I would also like to mention. During my time in Rio, I would hear about BJJ guys getting in fights and trouble. Sometimes this got into the local news. I don't recall once hearing that one of them submitted or choked out his opponent. I am saying that this never happens in street scenarios, but the fact is people are not inclined to go to the ground in some back allie or during a bar fight, because the cement is harder than the training mat for one. Secondly, third parties can join in and kick one's head in. So, no matter how good one's ground fighting is, if he hesitates to take the fight to the ground, then he is vulnerable to attacks from a striker.

I'm not saying BJJ is the end all. Remember, I'm saying MMA is the end all.

The above videos showed strikers from traditional systems doing their thing. Here is another one of a traditional karate expert against a wrestler in a ring fight setting:

Karate vs Judo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=1Yn93MdJTUs&feature=endscreen


My point is that whatever your art as long as it is a good one, then you can mostly (not always) adapt it to the sports scenario.

Finally! I totally agree with this. Aaaaaannnnnnddd the evidence shows that in general (with a very small number of exceptions) various arts and techniques DO NOT WORK. Striking is simpler than grappling. Striking has a small number of
effective principles that have to be present.....boxing, kick boxing, mu thai, some karates can teach effective striking. I give you that. Then there are grappling skills. BJJ, Wrestling, and to a much lesser extent Judo are overwhelmingly preeminent. The point is that an MMA artist has to be good at both. There is NO traditional MA that effectively incorporates both. MMA is new and very very effective. Nothing traditional equals it.

 

[DJ Ara]

Throat strikes are legal if you land them. Use of clothing to choke is legal. You can kick an opponent in the back if you get to him....come on, small joint manipulation famously DOES NOT WORK in a fight ....... this is basically the same old same old whine from martial arts practitioners of arts that DO NOT WORK.

One of the Gracies had a standing offer for years of if anyone wanted to have a truly no-holds barred fight with him, he would be very happy to oblige. A Vale Tudo ring in Brazil allows just about anything and I assure you people are not trying to do small joint manipulation or aiming for kicks to the balls (which are quite easy to defend against) ..... sorry guys but praying mantis and crouching tiger get eaten alive when they go up against MMA artists.

Krav Magda is a collection of dirty fighting techniques that have now become popular to teach to suburbanite women who are afraid of getting raped. It does not work against trained MMA fighters. Sheesh, again, I'm involved in a land war in Asia. Why me???

Hey, there is no war here, we are just discussing our different perspectives of martial arts.

The fact of the matter is that I doubt any serious Praying Mantis Kung fu (and there are many styles of this) have entered Vale Tudo or NHB matches for any of us to jump to conclusions. I can tell you that I know of kung fu masters who have fought Kick boxers and non-chinese MA stylists in NHB style, but not in competitions, but rather in challenges - sometimes formal challenges and a few times they were spontaneously challenged by the "modern" fighters.

The point I am making is first, most people out there, including those who teach "kung fu", no enough about the higher methodologies to just write them off. There is a lot of kung fu out there that no one has any idea about. Secondly, your art's effectiveness will depend on how you train it. If you follow the traditional methodology and then once you build the necessary faculties (which in kung fu training will take you longer than, say BJJ or Thai boxing),you can then go on to test it in realistic combat training.

As far as Krav Maga (or similar military self defense systems are concerned) then I will say that the Israeli army are many things, but stupid is not one of them. They will drill their Krav Maga techiques and then use them in actual combat if necessary. The same goes with other similar systems used by the Chinese, US, German, etc. armies.

Do the small joint manipulations/nerve strikes, etc. work? Of course, they do! However, how may people train them in a serious manner? How many people who claim to practice Tiger Claw kung fu, train and condition their claws to be able to cause damage to mulitple targets (I have had my throat grabbed by someone who had it, so know the difference)? How may practitioners train their Iron Palm/Fist methodologies? How may Kung fu practioners are aware of the body unity concepts of their given styles? The answer to the questions above is sadly NOT MANY!

SO, it is nothing to do with the arts, but the quality of instruction out there (just like salsa, where people are taught the motions while missing out on the ESSENCE!)

What makes any technique work is the way it is practiced which is directly related to the quality of the teacher and of course, the student and the eventual mindset (intention) of the latter!

 

[wildbill20056]

There's quite a distance between strikes that land around/near the throat and making deliberate, and clear strikes to the throat.Ditto the spine or back of the head.

Small joint manipulation actually can be very effective in real fight situations, it all depends on the opponent and the ability of the practitioner to adapt ie they aren't susceptible to finger locks, move to wrist etc. If they are so pumped up with adrenaline they aren't reacting to high levels of pain in general, move on.

I would also be very surprised if the Israeli defence forces spent their time training in a useless combat system. Further I would be truly amazed if the many many so called Krav Maga instructors doing SD classes down their local church hall were actually anything like the genuine article.

You are laboring under the impression that martial arts other than MMA are generally developed without a principal focus on combat effectiveness. It is true that many forms have become more art than martial, but they all stem from serious combat systems. Several of these combat focussed systems survive to this day, but as DJ Ara suggests I'd be amazed if the true masters of such forms walked into sporting contests for self glory/money.

We must remember that essentially martial arts developed from the need for genuine life/death combat systems, I don't think folk were finding ways to be less effective, and often what we see are only parodies of traditional martial arts ie 'kung fu masters' who have no concept of ground combat. THAT said, in a real fight situation going to ground is often a really good way to get yourself kicked in the head by your opponents' friends, so again we have to think situation.

 

[tocatimba]

OK guys. First of all I'm saying what is the test? One on one unarmed combat? Then as far as I'm concerned there is no question here that a top of the line MMA figher is going to be the favorite against any Krav Maga or Kung Fu master. I have indicated that there is a proving ground of various tournaments where there is much monetary gain and there are no pure Kung Fu or Krav Magda guys that are world champions of the UFC, Brazilian Vale Tudo, or Pride. Other than lame excuses like they are not interested in monetary gain...they are waaaaay toooooo spirtual.....you don't have a leg to stand on.

There's quite a distance between strikes that land around/near the throat and making deliberate, and clear strikes to the throat. Ditto the spine or back of the head.

Back of head is illegal in UFC for a grounded opponent. Are you telling me that KM has some special body of
techniques that allow them to get back of the head shots and that that they are disadvantaged in the UFC since they
can't use a huge portion of their technique. Bill, please, reflect a bit on what you say.

Small joint manipulation actually can be very effective in real fight situations, it all depends on the opponent and the ability of the practitioner to adapt ie they aren't susceptible to finger locks, move to wrist etc. If they are so pumped up with adrenaline they aren't reacting to high levels of pain in general, move on.

This is just silly. No. You're wrong. In a real fight, there is no way that you're even going to slow me down by breaking
a finger or two. (Do you know how many fingers I've broken, training?

I would also be very surprised if the Israeli defence forces spent their time training in a useless combat system. Further I would be truly amazed if the many many so called Krav Maga instructors doing SD classes down their local church hall were actually anything like the genuine article.

They are dirty fighting techniques (lots of weapon use) that are aimed at use against non-trained combatants.


You are laboring under the impression that martial arts other than MMA are generally developed without a principal focus on combat effectiveness. It is true that many forms have become more art than martial, but they all stem from serious combat systems. Several of these combat focussed systems survive to this day, but as DJ Ara suggests I'd be amazed if the true masters of such forms walked into sporting contests for self glory/money.

Why? Aren't they human? They are just so ethereal and spirtual that they wont do it? OK. Well, I'm sorry but these are
just fairy tales.

We must remember that essentially martial arts developed from the need for genuine life/death combat systems, I don't think folk were finding ways to be less effective, and often what we see are only parodies of traditional martial arts ie 'kung fu masters' who have no concept of ground combat. THAT said, in a real fight situation going to ground is often a really good way to get yourself kicked in the head by your opponents' friends, so again we have to think situation.

Here you are changing the ground rules. If I have to worry about multiple opponents, I'm not going without a weapon in
my hand.

 

[tocatimba]

Hey, there is no war here, we are just discussing our different perspectives of martial arts.

Fair enough!

The fact of the matter is that I doubt any serious Praying Mantis Kung fu (and there are many styles of this) have entered Vale Tudo or NHB matches for any of us to jump to conclusions. I can tell you that I know of kung fu masters who have fought Kick boxers and non-chinese MA stylists in NHB style, but not in competitions, but rather in challenges - sometimes formal challenges and a few times they were spontaneously challenged by the "modern" fighters.

OK. But then there isn't enough of a statistical baseline here to make predictions or statements about efficacy.

The point I am making is first, most people out there, including those who teach "kung fu", no enough about the higher methodologies to just write them off. There is a lot of kung fu out there that no one has any idea about. Secondly, your art's effectiveness will depend on how you train it. If you follow the traditional methodology and then once you build the necessary faculties (which in kung fu training will take you longer than, say BJJ or Thai boxing),you can then go on to test it in realistic combat training.

How you train it is the key. But it has to be against a realistic opponent. For example, judo guys do randori. And let
me tell you, I hate starting from a standup position with judekas ..... BUT, to do judo effectively you have to have somebody
that's "willing to dance" with you. You can lock up and just refuse to move or allow yourself to be pushed around. You can
reduce the effectiveness of judo a LOT by just refusing to do it. I typically try to shoot them and at least some of the time, I'll get them on the ground .... I have to admit most of the time, they do do throw me....but still I'm absolutely crummy at judo but
I can hold my own with them on my feet. You can't do this with a wrestler!!! A wrestler will force you to grapple and you
had better know what you're doing or you're going to stacked and pretzeled. I'm scared of wrestlers. They can definitely
hurt you and it very very hard to stay on your feet with a good one. Similarly if you are on the ground with a BJJ guy, you don't have any choice but to grapple and you had better protect your arms, legs, feet and throat......

As far as Krav Maga (or similar military self defense systems are concerned) then I will say that the Israeli army are many things, but stupid is not one of them. They will drill their Krav Maga techiques and then use them in actual combat if necessary. The same goes with other similar systems used by the Chinese, US, German, etc. armies.

The Marines train BJJ. I don't know what the other guys do.

Do the small joint manipulations/nerve strikes, etc. work? Of course, they do! However, how may people train them in a serious manner? How many people who claim to practice Tiger Claw kung fu, train and condition their claws to be able to cause damage to mulitple targets (I have had my throat grabbed by someone who had it, so know the difference)? How may practitioners train their Iron Palm/Fist methodologies? How may Kung fu practioners are aware of the body unity concepts of their given styles? The answer to the questions above is sadly NOT MANY!

SO, it is nothing to do with the arts, but the quality of instruction out there (just like salsa, where people are taught the motions while missing out on the ESSENCE!)

What makes any technique work is the way it is practiced which is directly related to the quality of the teacher and of course, the student and the eventual mindset (intention) of the latter!

 

[DJ Ara]

There's quite a distance between strikes that land around/near the throat and making deliberate, and clear strikes to the throat.Ditto the spine or back of the head.

A friend of mine once knocked down a guy with a fairly light (he wasn't trying to kill him) punch to the wind pipe.

Small joint manipulation actually can be very effective in real fight situations, it all depends on the opponent and the ability of the practitioner to adapt ie they aren't susceptible to finger locks, move to wrist etc. If they are so pumped up with adrenaline they aren't reacting to high levels of pain in general, move on.

The specific art that handles those kind of techniques in kung fu is called Chin-na. Every kung fu style will have elements of Chin-na, however, most people who train their watered down fake kung fu's have no idea about the scope of this methodology.

I would also be very surprised if the Israeli defence forces spent their time training in a useless combat system. Further I would be truly amazed if the many many so called Krav Maga instructors doing SD classes down their local church hall were actually anything like the genuine article.

Multiply that phenomenon by 1000 when we discuss kung fu....LOL!

You are laboring under the impression that martial arts other than MMA are generally developed without a principal focus on combat effectiveness. It is true that many forms have become more art than martial, but they all stem from serious combat systems. Several of these combat focussed systems survive to this day, but as DJ Ara suggests I'd be amazed if the true masters of such forms walked into sporting contests for self glory/money.

I am no kung fu master, but even if I were, I would not find the idea of sports tournaments appealing, even if somehow I was guaranteed to win every match. The kung fu teachers with whom I have had the fortune of interacting with were all fighters, in that they had fought challenges, but they don't find the idea of competing relevant.

We must remember that essentially martial arts developed from the need for genuine life/death combat systems, I don't think folk were finding ways to be less effective, and often what we see are only parodies of traditional martial arts ie 'kung fu masters' who have no concept of ground combat. THAT said, in a real fight situation going to ground is often a really good way to get yourself kicked in the head by your opponents' friends, so again we have to think situation.

As I said, even BJJ fighters in Rio hesitated going to the ground in a street scenario. Firstly there may be one guy in front of you, but for all you know he might have friends nearby. Secondly, the floor is not padded on the street or in many night spots, while there may also be broken glass and pebbles all over the place. So, the trouble that I would hear about involving BJJ guys was of them hitting each other or someone else in a fight, rather than wrestle.

One must also keep in mind that most self defense situations are not sports matches where both fighters prepare for it psychologically and may even have an idea of the other guy's capabilities. So, one minute you are having a quite drink and the next minute someone might come over to provoke you, or throw a punch at you. If in that instance you get him with a good (and well trained) shot and follow ups, if necessary, then chances are that you will walk away from it and he will not, even if he happens to have some grappling or thai boxing knowledge. So, in instances like this the calm mind state and awareness that true kung fu teaches comes very handy.

 

[DJ Ara]

The proof in the pooding, so to speak of variousl kung fu styles' effectiveness is in the fact that they have survived for so long. Those who have trained with real masters will have felt their power and effectiveness during live training. Also, some of the styles that are still around today were developed and/or practiced by military men (and more recently by gangsters), and in some cases, still are!

And I will state again, there are kung fu schools that practice realistic fighting. Generally, they get into it at a later stage of training when compared with MMA practitioners, but that has to do with the complexity of some of the styles.

 

[Sabrosura]

Hey, there is no war here, we are just discussing our different perspectives of martial arts.

And don't forget about their relationship to salsa.

I am seriously impressed by the fact we have such knowledgeable SF members when it comes to the martial arts and I think it proves the main point of the article.

 

[DJ Ara]

OK guys. First of all I'm saying what is the test? One on one unarmed combat? Then as far as I'm concerned there is no question here that a top of the line MMA figher is going to be the favorite against any Krav Maga or Kung Fu master. I have indicated that there is a proving ground of various tournaments where there is much monetary gain and there are no pure Kung Fu or Krav Magda guys that are world champions of the UFC, Brazilian Vale Tudo, or Pride. Other than lame excuses like they are not interested in monetary gain...they are waaaaay toooooo spirtual.....you don't have a leg to stand on.

It is quite possible that more kung fu practioners, perhaps from a Sanda/Sanshou line will successfully enter MMA, just like the Sand da fighter Cung Le did.

All I can say is that in a world that most kung fu practioners are practicing their arts incompletely, even when it comes to popular styles such as Wing Chun, it is unfair to make assumptions about the effectiveness or lack of, the hundreds of kung fu styles out there, based on what one sees or does not see in sports competitions.

 

[DJ Ara]

And don't forget about their relationship to salsa.

I am seriously impressed by the fact we have such knowledgeable SF members when it comes to the martial arts and I think it proves the main point of the article.

The relationship or the parallel is always present. It seems that genuine kung fu training and its methodologies are even more misunderstood than Salsa!

That is understandable too, because genuine kung fu practice can involve very complex concepts and methodologies, some of which are not even discussed within the school, let alone on public forums.

 

[Sabrosura]

The above videos showed strikers from traditional systems doing their thing. Here is another one of a traditional karate expert against a wrestler in a ring fight setting:

This was very interesting for me to watch because of the intense "mental fighting" that took place before the actual physical fighting began. To me it was very clear that the karate expert was going to win because he completely dominates his opponent mentally, his "energy force" over his opponent is impressive. You can almost feel it even though this is just a video.

Relationship to salsa: engaging with your partner's energy makes the dance a lot more fulfilling and interesting. Except in salsa it is not about dominating your partner, but about adjusting to and responding to their energy level and their "mood".

Also, the karate expert is focusing his entire mental energy on his opponent, whereas the wrestler's mental energy seems scattered between his opponent and the crowd.

Relationship to salsa: stay focused on your partner, not on the crowd, and you will have a much more fulfilling and enjoyable dance.

 

[DJ Ara]

This was very interesting for me to watch because of the intense "mental fighting" that took place before the actual physical fighting began. To me it was very clear that the karate expert was going to win because he completely dominates his opponent mentally, his "energy force" over his opponent is impressive. You can almost feel it even though this is just a video.

Relationship to salsa: engaging with your partner's energy makes the dance a lot more fulfilling and interesting. Except in salsa it is not about dominating your partner, but about adjusting to and responding to their energy level and their "mood".

Also, the karate expert is focusing his entire mental energy on his opponent, whereas the wrestler's mental energy seems scattered between his opponent and the crowd.

Relationship to salsa: stay focused on your partner, not on the crowd, and you will have a much more fulfilling and enjoyable dance.

That is a good parallel. In both scenarios you are interacting with your "partner". In the fight you will try and dominate him before it even starts. In salsa you want to be one with your partner and create harmony. The reading of the mood and movement with the "listening" aspect of kung fu, where through physical contact with your partner you will get a 'feel' of what he is doing and where he is 'going'.

[In some higher level kung fu styles you try to become one with your partner in order to dominate him, and that act includes 'flowing' with him.]

 

[wildbill20056]

OK guys. First of all I'm saying what is the test? One on one unarmed combat? Then as far as I'm concerned there is no question here that a top of the line MMA figher is going to be the favorite against any Krav Maga or Kung Fu master. I have indicated that there is a proving ground of various tournaments where there is much monetary gain and there are no pure Kung Fu or Krav Magda guys that are world champions of the UFC, Brazilian Vale Tudo, or Pride. Other than lame excuses like they are not interested in monetary gain...they are waaaaay toooooo spirtual.....you don't have a leg to stand on.

I've seen several UFC point deductions for strikes to the back of the head in non-grounded situations, I was under the impression that in general strikes to the back of the head with their increased potential for brain damage were generally out.

Consider for example that several standard ie taught to the point of instinct KM responses involve throat strikes, groin strikes etc. When you start telling an exponent that their baseline techniques are illegal, a) they have to change/adapt and b) that probably slows them by some (very small) amount. It's not so much that a 'huge' portion of their system is suddently invalidated, rather than it's curtailed here and there: whereas the MMA trained fighter has constantly trained and developed instincts 'within' the rules. That advantage is not negligible. Ditto headbuts (yes heads get used, again as with throat strikes, there is a world of difference.)

With regards to fingers, quite right, hence I spoke of the practicioner adapting ie fingers aren't going to work here, let's see how you fight with a broken wrist.

As for KM and 'what it is,' you really are presenting a parody, but I suspect you know that

Further with regards to those willing to step into sporting/high profile environments to compete, it's not a question of being 'too spiritual' (that said I am sure there are masters of arts who would not view such competitions as compatible with their philosophies), more a question of how they view their martial art.

This ties into the last point about the context of any combat. Many combat styles are not developed with a controlled, one-one limited, rules guided contest in mind. Many practioniers of arts designed to be used in real-life combat in varying contexts, will recognise that their style is not suited to the octagon (or what have you.) I seriously doubt that various militaries and police forces are deliberately teaching ineffective combat to their memberships.

That said, we're not going to agree on this. It's another standard argument that's been going around for probably centuries ie my martial art is stronger than yours. It's been fun

---

Back to Salsa, yes, understanding your partner's timing and body movement and moving to complement/use it, is clearly a strong parallel

 

[tocatimba]

I've seen several UFC point deductions for strikes to the back of the head in non-grounded situations, I was under the impression that in general strikes to the back of the head with their increased potential for brain damage were generally out.

Consider for example that several standard ie taught to the point of instinct KM responses involve throat strikes, groin strikes etc. When you start telling an exponent that their baseline techniques are illegal, a) they have to change/adapt and b) that probably slows them by some (very small) amount. It's not so much that a 'huge' portion of their system is suddently invalidated, rather than it's curtailed here and there: whereas the MMA trained fighter has constantly trained and developed instincts 'within' the rules. That advantage is not negligible. Ditto headbuts (yes heads get used, again as with throat strikes, there is a world of difference.)

As I said, one of the Gracies had an open invitation to have any sort of no hold fight anybody wanted. This sort of weak
explanation has also been around for a long time. Akido guys would say, "yeah, well if you allowed small joint manipulations
we would rule the UFC".......ummmmmm no, you wouldn't.

With regards to fingers, quite right, hence I spoke of the practicioner adapting ie fingers aren't going to work here, let's see how you fight with a broken wrist.

Attacks on Wrist, Ankle, knees, elbow are all allowed.

As for KM and 'what it is,' you really are presenting a parody, but I suspect you know that

Oh? KM is not a martial art as far as I can tell. It has no particular specialty. The open handed (without weapons) stuff
in it is a collection of dirty fighting techniques. MMA guys (I know a few who train BJJ) laugh at it, like they do Akido,
TaeKwonDo, Tai Chi (beware the power of the "chi"), and surburban karate dojos.


Further with regards to those willing to step into sporting/high profile environments to compete, it's not a question of being 'too spiritual' (that said I am sure there are masters of arts who would not view such competitions as compatible with their philosophies), more a question of how they view their martial art.

Oh? And how is that?

This ties into the last point about the context of any combat. Many combat styles are not developed with a controlled, one-one limited, rules guided contest in mind. Many practioniers of arts designed to be used in real-life combat in varying contexts, will recognise that their style is not suited to the octagon (or what have you.) I seriously doubt that various militaries and police forces are deliberately teaching ineffective combat to their memberships.

Teaching small joint attacks and techniques makes sense for a police department. And this goes back to a previous
question. What is the test? All I have ever said is that for 1 on 1 unarmed combat, MMA fighters are unbeatable. You
guys are saying, "well what if he has a bowstaff? or what if he has a bunch of his friends there?" Come on.

That said, we're not going to agree on this. It's another standard argument that's been going around for probably centuries ie my martial art is stronger than yours. It's been fun

This argument has been going on for quite a while AND it actually was resolved!! The Ultimate Fighting Championships
did exactly what everyone had always wanted to do....they pitted the individual arts against each other, 1 on 1, and they
saw who would win. There is no argument. You haven't lost this argument to me. You have already lost it to history. Try to deal with it.


---

Back to Salsa, yes, understanding your partner's timing and body movement and moving to complement/use it, is clearly a strong parallel

I'm pretty sure that the results of UFC tournaments would change very very little if you allowed blows to the back of the head. The MMA fighters would adjust very rapidly.

I'm very used to this notion of "the invincibility of my martial art" stuff from various practioners. Look, I used to be very interested in sporting clays and skeet, i.e. shotgun shooting sports. I remember once this karate guy shows up at my dojo to learn some grappling (which I strongly applaud for any "striker"). We get to talking and he is about the invincibility of his master. I made a joke about how the 12 guage always beats karate. He assured me that if I were in an empty parking lot with my shotgun on one side and his sensei on the other with his bare hands, I would almost certainly be killed because I would be
unable to hit him with my weapon before he reached me. I asked him if he thought his sensei was faster than a rabbit or could spring up in the air faster than a pheasant and he assured that it would be no contest. People watch too many kung fu movies and they think it is real.

 

[tocatimba]

As I said, even BJJ fighters in Rio hesitated going to the ground in a street scenario. Firstly there may be one guy in front of you, but for all you know he might have friends nearby. Secondly, the floor is not padded on the street or in many night spots, while there may also be broken glass and pebbles all over the place. So, the trouble that I would hear about involving BJJ guys was of them hitting each other or someone else in a fight, rather than wrestle.

When I take somebody down or do a Judo throw (from my VERY limited repetoire), I'm not afraid of hitting the ground. The
other guy is hitting the ground and I'm on top of him.

One must also keep in mind that most self defense situations are not sports matches where both fighters prepare for it psychologically and may even have an idea of the other guy's capabilities. So, one minute you are having a quite drink and the next minute someone might come over to provoke you, or throw a punch at you. If in that instance you get him with a good (and well trained) shot and follow ups, if necessary, then chances are that you will walk away from it and he will not, even if he happens to have some grappling or thai boxing knowledge. So, in instances like this the calm mind state and awareness that true kung fu teaches comes very handy.

This makes sense. And this why I've thought that if you want to get in trouble in bars, you're way better off to learn some Judo and some Boxing. I've never been in bar fight and I hope to maintain that record.

 

[Smejmoon]

(My Kung Fu is better that your Kung Fu!)

The difference between salsa dancing and martial arts is that partners are expected cooperate. Salsa is more dangerous, when this cooperation fails. That and music.
Other than that the dresses are prettier in salsa than in MA. MA are better, 'cuz you can legally go horizontal.

Oh, and the only time I've been knocked out with a strike to the head was on the dancefloor and it was my partner.

 

[tocatimba]

(My Kung Fu is better that your Kung Fu!)

The difference between salsa dancing and martial arts is that partners are expected cooperate. Salsa is more dangerous, when this cooperation fails. That and music.
Other than that the dresses are prettier in salsa than in MA. MA are better, 'cuz you can legally go horizontal.

Oh, and the only time I've been knocked out with a strike to the head was on the dancefloor and it was my partner.

I got hit in the head by a swinging elbow from a slot lead .... I thought I was going to pass out. He just looked at me and gave
me a big smile.

 

[Smejmoon]

Had to wear a wrist retainer for 2 weeks because of casino dancers. Slot is more like striking style, casino - grappling. But you can get your shoulders dislocated and feet stumped in both.
Maximum injury I've gotten from MA was split thumb when I kicked the Mother Earth. She did not move. So at amateur level salsa is more dangerous.

 

[tocatimba]

Had to wear a wrist retainer for 2 weeks because of casino dancers. Slot is more like striking style, casino - grappling. But you can get your shoulders dislocated and feet stumped in both.
Maximum injury I've gotten from MA was split thumb when I kicked the Mother Earth. She did not move. So at amateur level salsa is more dangerous.

I think it is that leads are grapplers and follows are strikers. Getting stomped on by one of those stiletto heels will make any
grappler tap out.

 

[DJ Ara]

When I take somebody down or do a Judo throw (from my VERY limited repetoire), I'm not afraid of hitting the ground. The
other guy is hitting the ground and I'm on top of him.

That is like saying "when I hit someone, they go down", which is talking about an ideal scenario. Technique applications in real fights don't always end up the way one intended. The guy you attempt to take down may also have grappling experience. Then you will both end up on the floor rolling all over the place. By the same token, I could apply close range WC striking to someone who has just attacked me, thinking that I will hit him and he will go down, and the guy suddenly takes valid counter measures.

Anyway, it is worth mentioning to you that throws and takedowns have been present in the hundreds of kung fu systems out there, for centuries and some would argue that some judo techniques and by extension BJJ ones have their roots in kung fu. Of course, I am not saying that most of today's kung fu students learn these methods (especially when the majority of them don't even learn the striking techniques properly), but the fact is that you can't criticise the art. Just like salsa, one has to criticise the way most people are taught how to dance (or not to dance it), rather than the art of salsa dancing. Another relevant fact about throwing techniques in kung fu is that generally speaking, they are not about taking the opponent down and then submitting him, even if those techniques also exist, but they are more about slamming him down so hard that he will stay down. I believe that judo has such techniques as well.

This makes sense. And this why I've thought that if you want to get in trouble in bars, you're way better off to learn some Judo and some Boxing. I've never been in bar fight and I hope to maintain that record.

Believe me, any kung fu style that is studied well under a genuine instructor can be effective in a bar (or any) fight.

I have posted plenty of video evidence showing manifestations of kung fu in contact competitions and even challenge matches. It is all in the way the art is trained.